2011.03.24 Frye Hearing - Afternoon portion

[QueenD]

Given what Dr. Vass said and his surprise..I tend to think that Cindy just soaked that trunk with Chloroform and detergent to get out that odour..and it completely drenched the carpeting in that trunk..so when sealed up in a container a few days later it emitted such high ammounts....

Chloroform is NOT something that crosses my mind when cleaning out odours..

In fact Just for your information..I heard that when a Dead body has decomped in a vehicle..they FILL it with Cut up apples..which absorbs the odours....so they can resell the vehicle down the road!!..This I found out via Insurance Company personel..my x was an Insurance Adjuster at the time!![/QUOTE]

I wonder why GA didn't do this. I think he used to be a car salesman at one time.

 

[strach304]

Was it really that bad? I only heard snippets on the radio.

I thought so too because in part it was so obvious JB did not understand the answers Dr. Vass gave him. Then there were obvious questions that he should have asked but didn't. Again, JP/JA had to say numerous times it wasn't a Frye issue. Questions for cross at trial. Yesterday DCS was doing the exact same thing. She really didn't understand the difference with root banding and discoloration. Again, many questions not Frye material.

 

[Turnadot]

<snip>

Just an FYI - but we are most likely going to use the chat room feature here during the trial.

We're very aware that the pace of the hearing threads is a problem for many, many people. To stay on topic, we'll let that rest for now. Updates will be forthcoming.

Another idea is to put a link in the first post of the hearing threads to places on the 'net that only do live updates, and there's no side chatter at all.

I apologise for contributing to more work for the mods with my side chatter in the hearing threads. I understand it can be frustrating for those who only want updates.

 

[Tiki]

HHJP said he requires this documentation from the defense and arguments no later than close of Tuesday to consider it.

I cannot wait to hear how they try to get around just now adding witnesses to testify about what her state of mind was back in June of 2008. HHBP sounded suspicious to me and said they will need to have a very good reason.

I would love it if he didn't allow them to testify, but have a feeling he will.

Now, they will have to change the whole defense and admit that she was lying about everything. They are just going to try to explain why. Look out GA and LA - bus might be on the way.

.

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Hmm, Mason was not in court today and filed a 9 page motion stating that JP has "clear bias". How many times can they be allowed to file a motion after it has already been heard and denied?

Second question, Vass says the amount of chloroform found in the air sample from the car was too high to be just from decomposition of a human body. [/B]"I don't think so," he said when asked by Assistant State Attorney Jeff Ashton. "It's much greater than that."
Is there more documentation on the Chloroform that we have not heard about? It sounds to me as if Caylee died from Chloroform. Or am I interpreting this wrong? That is a lot of Chloroform.
On another note: Baez is a really rude attorney, has no court room etiquette at all. :cow: I am proud of the two men on the stand today for little Caylee, they held it together extremely well considering all the badgering Baez was doing IMO.

1st BBM ~ Did everyone catch when HJP told JB to keep his voice down and then added something about not having anyone who is deaf in court today?
I thought, 'oh, isn't CM there?'. I'm not saying it's funny that anybody is deaf, but it's funny in this context imo.

 

[LyndyLoo]

Sorry QueenD but quoting has gone a wonky for some reason..

You wondered why GC didnt fill the car with apples..Easy peezy..Cindy was incharge of finding Casey..and I think George was at work...and given George's apparant expertise..I doubt he would even think of it...We have to remember the car had been picked that day or day before..Cindy located Casey ( with Amy in tow)..then police were call that evening and the circus began..

BTW Apples would need to be sealed inside vehicle for days if not weeks for it to work (apparantly/hersay)..so no chance...Quik fix..Soak the dam Car with chloroform mixture..to get the Dead body smell OUT!!/ Didnt work..as has been testified to by many people..not to mention Bones/Gerus and their handlers!!

 

[strach304]

Yup...I'm leaning to that as well...the prosecution won't vacillate...they want the Murder 1. JMO

Huh? If she did as that poster suggested it would still be considered murder one or felony child abuse resulting in death eligible for the DP. No sane person is going to think if they put a toddler in a car trunk in hot florida with mass amounts of chloroform that child has a hope of surviving. Where would the revenge or spite to Cindy come in? By torturing Caylee? Cindy would have to be aware of it to be affected. I can definitely agree that this may be exactly what Casey did and why. We also now know from MH that Casey did indeed play these games with her parents. I'm sure it gave her a feeling of power that she couldn't achieve any other way.

 

[cindysnow3]

I asked this in the other thread; will the super high chloroform be used to show Caylee was poisoned, or to show she anaerobically decomposed in the trunk.

BRB my dog is alerting on her full bladder. That's right, she's communicating very annoyingly and effectively with me.

LOL Strawberry.. that is only hearsay...:floorlaugh:

 

[Woe.be.gone]

The instant I read this, I jumped back two feet.

Oh stop being so dramatic! (or whatever it is you're being - some word that guy was using who kept saying that Vass was being _______?)

 

[RR0004]

Where do you listen to it on the radio at? Station?

I was wondering if it is on satellite radio is why I am asking.

HLN...I tried to find a dedicated station on XM...but couldn't find one.

 

[Gma Kat]

A mental health DEFENSE means you are saying that, even if the defendant killed someone, they cannot be held responsible for their actions. This state of mind thing IMO will likely be about how and why Casey's lack of mental health led her to act happy when she was really terrified/devastated.

ETA: Not that I think she was REALLY terrified/devastated. That's just what I think the defense is going to argue.

Is this different from ugly coping? Or more along the lines of being "absolutely petrified" of CA? I can see the defense using that latter......

 

[AZlawyer]

But wouldn't they need expert opinion on that? And if so, wouldn't that opinion have been disclosed in an expert report?

Yes, that's why everyone was so shocked when they mentioned the new expert on Casey's "state of mind" today in court.

My head is pounding from the hearings and just trying to grasp all this, so I am not going to elaborate excpet to ask -

Won't this present discovery and deadline issues/problems at this late date??? Seems there would be witnesses that would need to testify to her prior mental capacity/habits etc... Maybe they would be some of the same people already listed but what if the SA didn't depose them regarding any of that? They wouldn't have had a reason to....

I don't think that made a lot of sense but I hope you can read between the lines to get my drift.

I have a feeling when all the DT evidentiary motions got shot down with a bang, this is their Plan B. I mean they really don't have anything else. gah

Also, the abuse/neglect angle is a wash, IMO, because of the way KC treated her parents during the jail visit, and on the telephone when she called for Tony's number. The way KC talked to her own mother was appalling.

As for the ugly coping. As a juror the only way I would consider this idea is if the defence could show me a KC that was different before Caylee was murdered. The defence can't do it.

All my own opinions.

In my version of the "ugly coping" theory, Casey had been mentally ill for a lengthy period of time due to sexual and emotional abuse by her family, and was, because of that, able to dissociate herself from reality and seem "happy" when really horrible things happened to her (like her daughter dying in a terrible accident). So her behavior before and after wouldn't have been any different, really.

 

[krisskross]

I cannot wait to hear how they try to get around just now adding witnesses to testify about what her state of mind was back in June of 2008. HHBP sounded suspicious to me and said they will need to have a very good reason.

I would love it if he didn't allow them to testify, but have a feeling he will.

Now, they will have to change the whole defense and admit that she was lying about everything. They are just going to try to explain why. Look out GA and LA - bus might be on the way.

.

I think Dr Danziger was one of two docs who did examine her in 2008. Judge Strickland ordered a psych evaluation when he set her bond.

Dr D specialises in addiction.:waitasec:

http://www.healthgrades.com/directo...dr-md-reports/dr-jeffrey-danziger-md-76521435


I'm guessing they might claim she's an ugly coping, bi-polar, weed smoking (bad Tony) schizophrenic. :floorlaugh:


The Marijuana-Schizophrenia Link :great:

http://healthgrades.mm-health.com/schizophrenia/the-marijuana-schizophrenia-link

 

[kushka]

I have rarely seen a picture of KC in which her nature comes through so clearly as this one from the hearing. KC reminds me of a praying mantis:

 

[strach304]

Yes, agree here and I'm surprised the State hasn't shown us even a peak that they will go there and where ICA got that information. There is way too much IMO from ICA dosing Caylee during her brief life.

So the interesting bit is - where did ICA get the chloroform? Hmmm cause I pretty much doubt that lazy gal mixed it up herself. She is definitely the road of least resistance kind of a person.

She could have mixed it for sure since she looked it up on the internet. Doesn't mean she did it right though.

 

[Turnadot]

Is this different from ugly coping? Or more along the lines of being "absolutely petrified" of CA? I can see the defense using that latter......

I can see them using it, too. The problem though will be convincing a jury that the same KC who cursed at and treated CA like crap over the telephone, and constantly stole from CA and lied to her, was really petrified of her mother.

Baez&Co's defendant has seriously limited their options.

All my own opinions.

 

[faefrost]

My :twocents: after watching it all. Some semi random opservations (and I promise no... ok minimal snark :innocent

- Hair Banding. I think the state more than accomplished what they needed to. Their witness was positively unflappable. The hair evidence will all come in.

- Dogs. The defense spoke a lot about dogs, but somewhere failed to read what it was they were allowed to go after and what their actual goal was. They had to establish that these two individual dogs were in some way not properly trained or certified. They were not there to challenge sniffer dogs as a whole. Dogs have already been subjected to Frye and are accepted by the courts. Apparently nobody told JB this as his arguments went everywhere but on point. The prosecution managed to get both the highly detailed, precise and succinct training and certification record on bones entered in clearly, and they got Gerus's 20,800+ hours of training and experience in. This is a done manner. JB failed to even come close to his goal. The dogs will be in in my estimation. No question about it. As an added bonus JB managed to elicit the dog handler to offer his own expert opinions on the smell of human decomposition in the car and his experience with which to offer it. Way to go Defense Team!

- Dr Fairgreave. Stick a fork in him, he's done. Just a horrible witness all around. He is worthless as a defense witness testifying about dogs, having less actual expertise than a typical pet owner. Even worse his testimony regarding chloroform, his actual area of expertise as a forensic toxicologist, was rather damning for the defense. He basically supported Dr. Vass's findings that the reason the amount of chloroform could not be accurately stated was the amount was so high that it was beyond the instruments ability to determine.

- Decomposition/Dr. Vass - Dr. Vass came off as a smooth, skilled professional witness. Extremely credible. Very easy for a lay person such as a juror to understand. I am not going to predict which way the judge will go regarding Dr. Vass's tests on the trunk space air. But if he does deny these tests or this science under Frye, it will be the result of his (HHJP's) own research into the matter. The defense did not even come close to presenting any valid or comprehensible arguments regarding the sniffing tests. Perhaps the defense may yet have an expert in the wings to offer a counter opinion on this? (I lost track of what they did and did not finish today). But the defense today was continually arguing evidence instead of science. Which was not what they needed to do under Frye. Maybe if HHJP happens to stumble accriss RH's blog he may find a good argument for tossing the science. But he did not get it from the defense.

- Overall performance by lawyers. LDB is by far the strongest most competent and most compelling lawyer in the room. Every time she gets up she elicits the exact response she needs. She shoots down BS with simple easy to understand facts. JA needs to work a little on his emotional control. Although I do think a lot of his "Objection" spam was to teach DCS a lesson following her antics in the depositions. DCS herself comes accross, ummm... not well. A weird mixture of a flighty aunt with way too many cats, and someone playing gotcha over weird verbal games. There may be a method to her madness, but really she just puts everyone to sleep. She is a medical malpractice lawyer, more used to facing a similar plaintiffs attorney, then a professional prosecutor, and more used to be facing medical lay people than true professional LE experts and forensic specialists. And it really shows. HHJP quickly lost patience with her. AF is probably the best resource or hope that KC has right now, assuming she does not bail after JB's antics of today. She is warm. She is polished. She is professional. And it really shows with how the prosecutions and the judges attitude changes as soon as she steps up (and gets JB or DCS to step down). She could possibly save KC's life in all of this. I just hope KC and her other lawyers realize this. And then we come to JB...

- JB. Sigh! The most obvious thing about watching JB today is that he was only ever taught one way to present in court. It's like his whole courtroom presentation style was learned from watching lawyer TV shows, as opposed to actually taking cases the full way through a trial. He does not seem to be able to switch gears between a dramatic adversarial presentation for a lay jury, or a more directed presentation to a single expert observer, ie the judge. Notice how every time LDB questions a witness or speaks in a hearing it is very clear that it is all directed in a clear and succinct manner towards the judge. Whereas JB is playing gotcha antics without an audience. Or is arguing points that while fascinating to a jury, will immediately be dismissed as legally irrelevant by a judge. Dr. Vass's profit motive argument today was a great example of this. It might play to the jury as a reason to discount the witness, but today the judge wanted science. He didn't get it.

And this is above and beyond the very clear realization today that JB has lost, totally lost the professional trust of pretty much every one around him save his client (who probably still thinks he was fantastic today for telling that judge and mean old JA what for). It was beyond apparent to everyone that his apology at the previous hearing to get out of sanctions or contempt charges (or whatever it technically is) was made in bad faith. he never had any intention of honoring anything he said beyond the 10 minutes it would need to get him out of immediate trouble. HHJP has the patience of a saint to not take start holding the defendant responsible for he antics of her lead attorney.

-HHJP. Looked very irritated every time the camera panned to him. He wanted science and true materials pertaining to Frye. Aside from a few thankfully brief prosecution sessions, he didn't get it. Instead he got a parade of irrelevant evidentiary nonsense. He had me worried watching him on camera during the great JB smackdown. I really thought the poor man was having some sort of Hypertensive Incident. His right eye was half lidded, his left eye was wide open and spasming. And his speech seemed off with some unusual pauses until he was able to collect himself. I think JB very nearly found his breaking point today, and only the timely intervention of Ms. Finnel prevented the situation from really escalating.

All around I think this will score as a major win for the prosecutors, and stand among some of JB's worst performances to date.

 

[jon_burrows]

Yup I heard his testimony caught her attention and then she looked down again. I must watch the video!!

When he said he jumped two steps back after smelling the carpet because it smelled like human decomposition, Casey looked straight at him. Her forehead was scrunched up....weird considering she rarely looks up. She usually just writes all day long or shuffles papers.

Dr. V described the smell of human decomposition the best I've heard yet. He will make an excellent witness.

 

[strach304]

AV said during the hearing that in his 20 years of experience, he had never once seen chloroform levels that high associated with decomp.

As many other WSers noted at the time, this made me reconsider my previous "nah, KC would never have made/used chloroform on her baby" stance.

Also, when AV got the air samples from OCSO of the trunk liner, and opened them, he said he literally "jumped back" 2 feet because the odor of decomposition was so pungent.

RR, if you have time, please watch at least the afternoon part of today's hearing. Please put pillows down on the floor first, or else you might crack your jaw.

That is exactly one of the things I see wrong with JB's questioning. He needs to direct attention to other explanations for those high levels. He shouldn't be giving the idea that if it wasn't from ICA drugging Caylee it was from her dead body. He may not have meant to do that but that was my impression. JA is going for both and considering how massively high those levels were I think most will understand and agree.

 

[AlwaysShocked]

Even though it takes the time to get through the hearing threads, I, like many others appreciate reading the comments of more than one poster. People have different perceptions and to me it seems to give a better picture to read what several people have to say.

And yes, sometimes I just scroll on through.

As for the one-liners, they sure do serve a function in terms of release of tension.

I too would like to have an up-to-date idea of what is and is not acceptable to post.