2011.03.24 Frye Hearing - Afternoon portion

[RR0004]

In fairness, and maybe I don't understand completely, but I thought the Frye hearing is for the purpose of deciding whether the scientific methods used by the Body Farm are, indeed, scientific.

What am I missing?

I'm getting the impression that Jose was the ONLY one who didn't quite understand that.

 

[21merc7]

Yep. I think somehow the defense just recently realized that they didn't have to just use "ugly coping" in a vacuum but instead could say that someone was "ugly coping" BECAUSE of some mental issue. Not a disease or even a disorder, necessarily, but some ability to dissociate oneself from reality in a terrible, stressful situation.

Abuse, neglect from family?

 

[cyberborg]

That's pretty much what they were discussing...only thing left to establish is which way will the prosecution use this...will they say that she chloroformed her to get her to sleep so she could go out and party...or did she out and out use the choroform to kill her (for x, y, and z reasons).

Given the major fight with CA and the threat to take Caylee from ICA ... I'd suspect ICA placed Caylee in the trunk and dumped a bunch of chloroform in to do the dirty work for her. ICA then strutted off for her date with AL. The timing is more about spite and torture against CA than a wrong dose.

As SP said, ICA hates CA more than she loved Caylee. Caylee became the target of the spite and the best way to hurt CA and retaliate -- thus the game of hide and seek afterwards. ICA was enjoying the cat and mouse.

 

[AZlawyer]

Abuse, neglect from family?

Probably.

 

[eaglemom]

Here is what I posted earlier from what Dr. Vass said in his testimony:

Chloroform rates:

Decomp would equal about 8x control sample.

Trunk sample was about 10,000 times control sample.

Yes, I admit it, this case gave me a chloroform obsession.

IMO, there was way too much chloroform found to be from decomposition.

Does anyone remember what Dr. Vass said about trying to duplicate the results by injection of chloroform into something? I got a phone call and didn't catch much of it.

What I recall is that they couldn't get the actual levels/amount of chloroform used in the trunk because it was mixed with methanol (or was it methane?) and when they tried it once it didn't work very well/ gave a very low reading and Dr. Vass thought they would 'blow up' the gas chromatograph trying to duplicate the results from the actual sample.

Someone please correct me if I am wrong!

 

[RR0004]

Personally I love the hearing threads...it allowed me to follow yesterday's afternoon hearing. Bless everyone who contributes...

 

[Bullwinkle]

This picture, taken at today's hearing, says quite a bit. And we're in for a lot more of this.

Photo courtesy the Orlando Sentinel

 

[A_News_Junkie]

Was it really that bad? I only heard snippets on the radio.

Worse. JB doesn't ask questions he babbles. Stark comparison to how well prepared and concise Linda is.

He did not get the memo on getting more bee's with honey but he sure got the one on more flies with $hi............ well, you know.

Very shocking day, IMHO. Will talk more *IF* I can recover.

 

[Lanie]

In fairness, and maybe I don't understand completely, but I thought the Frye hearing is for the purpose of deciding whether the scientific methods used by the Body Farm are, indeed, scientific.

What am I missing?

Here's my opinion.

If one side is going to attack the evidence, they have to provide the other side with what they are going after and the documentation to back it up.

Baez, IMO, told the State he was only going to challenge Dr. Vass on the interpretation of the results they got and also something else I don't remember, but then he proceeded to try to attack Dr. Vass on many levels, including the machinery used to get the results. If allowed, the State would be unprepared to cross-examine and make their case. That is why HHJP was referring to an "ambush".
MOO

 

[ynotdivein]

Thank you for this Beach! I appreciate the Summary thread as well. I find the actual hearing thread is just a gong show and Fuster Cluck. There are WAY too many people in there, many many of the posts are repeat posts as EVERYONE is trying to keep updates coming at the same time, everyone tripping over them selves and such and it is extremely difficult to make sense of all the posts. Additionally, it's rather difficult to either KEEP up with those day of threads or go Through them to catch up. I was wondering if we will have a better more organized posting method for the actual trial?

Is there anyway we can restrict EXCESSIVE posting to keep the threads more fluid and easier to follow. I ADORE the One liners and Quips but I suspect we will have a VERY mess WS come may.

Back to reading and TRYING to catch up

Ssejors, I have to apologize one WSer to another, as I am one who sometimes can follow the hearings live and who does lean to the smart-a$$ side.

First off, I am sorry for any of my specific posts that may have impeded your (or others'!) ability to follow along.

Second, I think you're on to something here. Maybe during the trial we can have both a "real-time updates" thread and a "chat" thread running side by side? Maybe this would just be a moderators' worst nightmare. IDK. Either way, thanks for the nudge that I might think my smarta$$ comment is hysterical but not every reader will. :blowkiss:

 

[logicalgirl]

Given the major fight with CA and the threat to take Caylee from ICA ... I'd suspect ICA placed Caylee in the trunk and dumped a bunch of chloroform in to do the dirty work for her. ICA then strutted off for her date with AL. The timing is more about spite and torture against CA than a wrong dose.

As SP said, ICA hates CA more than she loved Caylee. Caylee became the target of the spite and the best way to hurt CA and retaliate -- thus the game of hide and seek afterwards. ICA was enjoying the cat and mouse.

Yes, agree here and I'm surprised the State hasn't shown us even a peak that they will go there and where ICA got that information. There is way too much IMO from ICA dosing Caylee during her brief life.

So the interesting bit is - where did ICA get the chloroform? Hmmm cause I pretty much doubt that lazy gal mixed it up herself. She is definitely the road of least resistance kind of a person.

 

[RR0004]

Yep. I think somehow the defense just recently realized that they didn't have to just use "ugly coping" in a vacuum but instead could say that someone was "ugly coping" BECAUSE of some mental issue. Not a disease or even a disorder, necessarily, but some ability to dissociate oneself from reality in a terrible, stressful situation.

Ya know...when you think about it...the defense's strategy really hasn't change much from Day 31. Oh, they had RK to throw around for a while...but other than that...it was all what we expected it to be. Attack the evidence...circumstantial or otherwise...and pray that one person on the jury would fall for their cr@p!

 

[LyndyLoo]

Chloroform wasn't just many time it was 10,000 times. That is an incredible amount - IMO.

Maybe I heard something wrong but that is what I got from Vass.

Given what Dr. Vass said and his surprise..I tend to think that Cindy just soaked that trunk with Chloroform and detergent to get out that odour..and it completely drenched the carpeting in that trunk..so when sealed up in a container a few days later it emitted such high ammounts....

Chloroform is NOT something that crosses my mind when cleaning out odours..

In fact Just for your information..I heard that when a Dead body has decomped in a vehicle..they FILL it with Cut up apples..which absorbs the odours....so they can resell the vehicle down the road!!..This I found out via Insurance Company personel..my x was an Insurance Ajuster at the time!!

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Was it determined if chlorine bleach was used to clean the trunk?
I know we have threads on the topic but has that avenue for levels being what they are been eliminated?

 

[RR0004]

Yes, agree here and I'm surprised the State hasn't shown us even a peak that they will go there and where ICA got that information. There is way too much IMO from ICA dosing Caylee during her brief life.

So the interesting bit is - where did ICA get the chloroform? Hmmm cause I pretty much doubt that lazy gal mixed it up herself. She is definitely the road of least resistance kind of a person.

I was thinking about this while I was driving around pretty much all day...my mind kept going back to the tattoo parlor.

PS- do we know which websites her search for chloroform took her to?

 

[logicalgirl]

Ssejors, I have to apologize one WSer to another, as I am one who sometimes can follow the hearings live and who does lean to the smart-a$$ side.

First off, I am sorry for any of my specific posts have impeded your ability to follow along.

Second, I think you're on to something here. Maybe during the trial we can have both a "real-time updates" thread and a "chat" thread running side by side? Maybe this would just be a moderators' worst nightmare. IDK. Either way, thanks for the nudge that I might think my smarta$$ comment is hysterical but not every reader will. :blowkiss:

I think much of the multiple posting is because none of us can see what the other is posting while we post and we are trying to keep those who are reading only up to the minute with most of this stuff. Some of us post about mood etc., and some are very good posting the more complicated evidence stuff.

I don't have any trouble scrolling by duplicate posts - as I am often watching to see who is posting what to see if I can add anything. I don't see how this can be avoided during the trial unless select members are chosen to post only and then does that not take away from the whole spirit of being online at WS and watching the hearings/trial live?

I am also loving the smart aleck one liners because it is a huge tension release during some tough stuff to watch - whether it is hugely boring or highly emotional. Thanks all - just IMO

 

[Woe.be.gone]

Ya know...when you think about it...the defense's strategy really hasn't change much from Day 31. Oh, they had RK to throw around for a while...but other than that...it was all what we expected it to be. Attack the evidence...circumstantial or otherwise...and pray that one person on the jury would fall for their cr@p!

I agree. I keep thinking that the Defense doesn't have anything to defend with - remember JB said that we'll understand at trial? Is he still claiming that?

 

[nursebeeme]

http://www.wesh.com/casey-anthony-extended-coverage/26939470/detail.html

MAR
25
Frye Hearing Scheduled

this link shows that they are still in court tomorrow... is that not the case???

 

[MADJGNLAW]

Hmm, Mason was not in court today and filed a 9 page motion stating that JP has "clear bias". How many times can they be allowed to file a motion after it has already been heard and denied?

Second question, Vass says the amount of chloroform found in the air sample from the car was too high to be just from decomposition of a human body. [/B]"I don't think so," he said when asked by Assistant State Attorney Jeff Ashton. "It's much greater than that."
Is there more documentation on the Chloroform that we have not heard about? It sounds to me as if Caylee died from Chloroform. Or am I interpreting this wrong? That is a lot of Chloroform.
On another note: Baez is a really rude attorney, has no court room etiquette at all. :cow: I am proud of the two men on the stand today for little Caylee, they held it together extremely well considering all the badgering Baez was doing IMO.

Casey Anthony attorney: Judge Perry has 'clear bias'
An expert also testifies about extraordinarily high levels of chloroform levels."Snip"
Much More at Link: http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...ony-hearing-thursday-20110324,0,2758083.story
By Anthony Colarossi, Orlando Sentinel

3:52 p.m. EDT, March 24, 2011



Chloroform levels extremely high, expert says

Arpad Vass, senior research scientist at Oak Ridge National Laboratory is testifying about his extensive research in buried body decomposition as well as surface decomposition.

Anthony's team is trying to stop air-sample evidence used in her murder trial.

Vass said Detective Melich contacted him about this case.

"He had some odor issues in the trunk of the car," he said.

Vass said in hundreds of such samples he'd collected through the years he'd never seen chloroform levels that high. His reaction, he said, was "surprise."

Vass says the amount of chloroform found in the air sample from the car was too high to be just from decomposition of a human body. "I don't think so," he said when asked by Assistant State Attorney Jeff Ashton. "It's much greater than that."

He estimated the levels found to be 10,000 times greater than normal human decomposition levels.

 

[beach]

Yep. I think somehow the defense just recently realized that they didn't have to just use "ugly coping" in a vacuum but instead could say that someone was "ugly coping" BECAUSE of some mental issue. Not a disease or even a disorder, necessarily, but some ability to dissociate oneself from reality in a terrible, stressful situation.

My head is pounding from the hearings and just trying to grasp all this, so I am not going to elaborate excpet to ask -

Won't this present discovery and deadline issues/problems at this late date??? Seems there would be witnesses that would need to testify to her prior mental capacity/habits etc... Maybe they would be some of the same people already listed but what if the SA didn't depose them regarding any of that? They wouldn't have had a reason to....

I don't think that made a lot of sense but I hope you can read between the lines to get my drift.

I have a feeling when all the DT evidentiary motions got shot down with a bang, this is their Plan B. I mean they really don't have anything else. gah