• Websleuths is under Distributed Denial of Service (DDoS) Attack. Please pardon any site-sluggishness as we deal with this situation.

2012.02.07 - 911 Tapes Released

-------------

OK, crying.

Gosh, I'm starting to think I need counseling! I can't go to sleep without thinking of the horror the boys went through, and I pray pray pray that they didn't suffer (though I know they did). A friend from Seattle told me about the Westboro going to their funeral, and I just cried. I look at the boys and see my own son at that age. I can't seem to shake it off - I just want to scream.

Thankfully my doc put my on anti-d's yesterday (but of course not covered by my insurance). Now I have to get her to find a replacement brand!

This can't be normal -- I feel like when my own mother died...and I never met the boys. Maybe it's the horror of the situation that's troubling me so.

Thanks for letting me vent.

Mel
 
Gosh, I'm starting to think I need counseling! I can't go to sleep without thinking of the horror the boys went through, and I pray pray pray that they didn't suffer (though I know they did). A friend from Seattle told me about the Westboro going to their funeral, and I just cried. I look at the boys and see my own son at that age. I can't seem to shake it off - I just want to scream.

Thankfully my doc put my on anti-d's yesterday (but of course not covered by my insurance). Now I have to get her to find a replacement brand!

This can't be normal -- I feel like when my own mother died...and I never met the boys. Maybe it's the horror of the situation that's troubling me so.

Thanks for letting me vent.

Mel

:(

It's awful isn't it?

Mel, you have such a great heart. It's hard to hear of all the evil in the world.

I have found that I sometimes have to step away from WS. For my sanity.

I had to do it during Shaniya's case. Although it killed me not to "check in" throughout the day.

Hugs Mel!
 
How can we push for this kind of action nationwide?

I think we start writing legislators who have been effective at protecting children's rights. Perhaps someone with more expertise here can also suggest a national organization to pair with on this effort. I would think even professional organizations for social workers would be interested in protecting court workers.

Remember, at one time you could walk into any courthouse with a loaded gun. A series of tragic slayings changed that.
 
SEATTLE — The Washington state social worker who was supposed to supervise a visit between Josh Powell and his young sons says Powell told his oldest boy he had a "surprise" for him moments before attacking and killing the children.

Elizabeth Griffin-Hall said in an interview to air on ABC's "20/20" on Friday that Powell slammed the door on her after he had the children inside the house on Sunday. Hall said she banged on the door to try to get inside and heard Powell tell 7-year-old Charlie: "I've got a big surprise for you." She also heard 5-year-old Braden crying.

Authorities said Powell used a hatchet on his children, then set a house fire that killed them all.

<modsnip>


http://www.deseretnews.com/article/700223667/Worker-Josh-Powell-told-son-he-had-surprise.html


Doc-I love you dearly-but every time I see your name on the top of my screen I know you are either going to tell me good news or bad news...
This story just gets worse by the day-I don't blame you Doc-thanks for keeping us in the loop!!!I think -LOL
 
I'm trying to formulate a reply to a post on another thread which addresses some of the same issues being discussed here.

I think we need a new thread to address specifically changes in the law or in practices which we feel could help avert such tragic outcomes such as in this case...and keeping in-mind that some features of this horror are anomalous.

For me, the key issues revolve around red-flagging certain cases by all involved (court, agencies, etc) and insisting upon full disclosure and review among them.

Just offering this for now...ideas still crystallizing. ;-)
 
Here's another thing that could easily be changed, immediately. Supervised visits should be considered - even when not with potential murder suspects - as high-risk situations. A caseworker or contract worker should be 1) empowered to call 911 immediately if barred from supervision, and 2) should be given a phrase that ALL 911 operators know, which turns it into a high-risk immediate response.

A door slams in their face? They should not knock, pound, or do anything other than run to safety behind their car (in case there is shooting out a window?), dial 911, and say, "Code blue: supervision visit FAIL." Or something like that. Give the address, and cops should be on the away.

If we're really serious about protecting children in the country, let's get serious.

Wow. Such a common sense, logical idea. Fantastic!!! Please, please write your legislator, reference this case and suggest it. Excellent. We need more innovative, smart people like you running the show and less bureaucrats.

Gosh, I'm starting to think I need counseling! I can't go to sleep without thinking of the horror the boys went through, and I pray pray pray that they didn't suffer (though I know they did). A friend from Seattle told me about the Westboro going to their funeral, and I just cried. I look at the boys and see my own son at that age. I can't seem to shake it off - I just want to scream.

Thankfully my doc put my on anti-d's yesterday (but of course not covered by my insurance). Now I have to get her to find a replacement brand!

This can't be normal -- I feel like when my own mother died...and I never met the boys. Maybe it's the horror of the situation that's troubling me so.

Thanks for letting me vent.

Mel

Hey, many of us are right where you are. I log in with a feeling of reluctance and dread yet it is the only place I can discuss this case without feeling like a Debbie Downer and where I know others will feel as I do. Seriously, I wake up and they pop in my head. I got to sleep or try to, thinking about them. This is one of the worst for me, I think because of the serious injustice of it all and because it was so, damn preventable.

So many of us saw this coming. Why didn't the powers that be? This did not have to happen. I will never get over it. Those babies and the evil that ended their lives, their mama's life and tormented her family, will haunt me forever.

ETA: It's not just us. I was listening to the radio down here in Southern California. Some lady with a thick accent from some part of the world called in. She began yelling about this case. She just went on and on about what a danger he was and why did he have visits at his house. She ended by just sobbing, "those babies. Those babies!" Reporters are torn up, so many people are just devastated by this. People who never met Susan, Charlie, Braden or the Coxes.

You are normal. We are normal. This flood of emotion and horror proves our humanity and proves that evil never wins. It cannot compare to the depth of such feeling from so many people, that stems from love and compassion. The ability of perfect strangers to grieve the loss of these lovely little lives is remarkable and far outweighs the horror inflicted on them. It shows there is much more good in the world than bad.
 
I know this may sound silly and I am not trying to be lighthearted at all about this case...it grieves me every hour of every day.

I do believe if the PTB just saw ONE interview with a whiney, sniveling, fake-crying JP right after Susan went missing, a wholly different picture might have emerged to serve as a backdrop to how any step of custody arrangements should have been decided from the get-go.

I vote for mandatory full review of high-profile cases before any court makes decisions about where the children would be safe.

~jmo~
 
Until a person is convicted of a crime, in this country, he is legally presumed to be innocent and afforded all of the rights of an innocent person.
The laws are NOT written to protect the suspects. The laws in our system are written to protect the INNOCENT. The laws protect me, and you, as well as anyone suspected of a crime, and I hope very much that they stay that way. Yes, some horrible evil atrocities are possible because of the way our legal system works, but many many evil atrocities are also prevented, and we are better because of it. Jmho.

No one wants to take away a person's rights but I really wish that it was just a given that in a situation where supervised visitation is required that it not take place in someone's home. I just don't see the point in risking any kind of danger. All supervised visitation should take place in a secure place where the person being supervised is checked for weapons. I honestly don't know any statistics but I am sure this is not the first time a child has been killed by a person that wasn't adequately supervised during a supervised visit. Especially if the person being supervised is a suspect, or person of interest, in a murder.
 
I hope the whole system takes a long look at what went wrong here and work towards making children in this country more safe!
My heart just breaks for what Susan, Branden and Charlie went through.
May they RIP
 
Social Workers have a National Organization:
http://www.naswdc.org/

They are a long standing HUGE group whose perspective and organizational pull/advocacy should be used to bring this case to the floor of the US Congress. They are in the best position to advocate on the issues that we have been discussing. Believe me, Social Workers would do anything to minimize the dangers that come with the job of protecting children.

Forget about local laws...we need a national standard and the framework for that standard already exists. Congress has addressed the needs of children in other very wide-sweeping bills/statutes. An example of a law that already addresses the issue of "the best interest of the child" was PL-94-142. It addressed, specifically, the requirement of school districts to do whatever possible to provide a "handicapped" child with the "least restrictive environment" and adequate resources to, handicapped, learning disabled, and emotionally disturbed children. That meant that if the school system didn't have the necessary services that they be required by law to provide those services even if it meant contracting out to private agencies.

Even though this law was established in response to the educational needs of children, it also sets an established precedent for other bills to be introduced re: "the best interest of the child."

NASW is the organization to contact...they need to get involved and they are best equipped to lobby for change on these custody/visitation issues.
 
No one wants to take away a person's rights but I really wish that it was just a given that in a situation where supervised visitation is required that it not take place in someone's home. I just don't see the point in risking any kind of danger. All supervised visitation should take place in a secure place where the person being supervised is checked for weapons. I honestly don't know any statistics but I am sure this is not the first time a child has been killed by a person that wasn't adequately supervised during a supervised visit. Especially if the person being supervised is a suspect, or person of interest, in a murder.

Social workers are threatened by parents more often than one can imagine. I don't know if the contracted worker who "supervised" the Powell visits was a social worker or a trained foster care "worker" with no formal BSW or MSW training but she was entrusted to do the same thing that social workers and specifically CPS workers do everyday throughout the US. Her organization, possibly through no fault of their own, sent this woman into a very UNSAFE an uncontrolled situation. That, should never be the case. But, everyday social workers, case workers, counselors, etc are sent to do home visits, "supervised visits", and are taxiing children to and fro. There are thousand of kids in foster care whose parents are dangerous and there is no reason in the world to further put the workers or children into a more dangerous situation; if a simple solution exists.

IMO, the only time a "supervised visit" should take place in an "uncontrolled" environment, such as a private home, is when the courts have already agreed that the child is safe living there. In the Powell case, that was not established. The courts had determined that, at least for the short term, the non-custodial parent, JP, had not proven himself to be a safe caretaker. Therefore, the children could not live with him and IMO they should not have been allowed to visit him at his home until he fulfilled and passed the required psych and LDT exams.
 
It absolutely appalls me that I've seen so many people criticize and judge this social worker. If you listen to the 911 call you will see that it did take the social worker about 2 minutes to find the address. While two minutes is a long time in such a dire case it's not like it took her 20 minutes to figure out the address. Let me just say, I don't think the outcome would have been any different had she had the address the very second she dialed 911. I believe that for 2 reasons. First and foremost, JP had planned this - IMO, had the cops have arrived there immediately it would only have caused him to set the fire sooner. Secondly, that 911 operator did not listen to that social worker. She blatantly told him she very well thought this could be life threatening and he just blew her off. That ENRAGED me, to say the least. I personally feel that all cases (especially one that involves children + a high profile murder suspect) should be taken very seriously and treated as if they're life threatening. Listening to the way that he responded to the call makes me think that it should be the dispatching company that should be evaluating their response as opposed to the state evaluating the social workers response. I know that this dispatcher didn't know what would happen, but he is a 9-1-1 dispatcher for, heaven&#8217;s sake. I may be being a bit harsh, but I would even go so far as to say he should be fired. If you disagree, that's fine, but I would urge you to listen to that call before you make a decision.
 
It absolutely appalls me that I've seen so many people criticize and judge this social worker. If you listen to the 911 call you will see that it did take the social worker about 2 minutes to find the address. While two minutes is a long time in such a dire case it's not like it took her 20 minutes to figure out the address. Let me just say, I don't think the outcome would have been any different had she had the address the very second she dialed 911. I believe that for 2 reasons. First and foremost, JP had planned this - IMO, had the cops have arrived there immediately it would only have caused him to set the fire sooner. Secondly, that 911 operator did not listen to that social worker. She blatantly told him she very well thought this could be life threatening and he just blew her off. That ENRAGED me, to say the least. I personally feel that all cases (especially one that involves children + a high profile murder suspect) should be taken very seriously and treated as if they're life threatening. Listening to the way that he responded to the call makes me think that it should be the dispatching company that should be evaluating their response as opposed to the state evaluating the social workers response. I know that this dispatcher didn't know what would happen, but he is a 9-1-1 dispatcher for, heaven&#8217;s sake. I may be being a bit harsh, but I would even go so far as to say he should be fired. If you disagree, that's fine, but I would urge you to listen to that call before you make a decision.

The Sheriff's department are reviewing, they were not happy with the "etiquette and manner" of how this call was handled. The social worker certainly deserved to be treated better. The operator could use some training on gaining information, staying on task, and not being argumentative. It's not helpful. This is certainly not an indictment of ALL 911 operators. This particular call should have been handled better. A child welfare worker who is supervising a court ordered visitation should be able to get help without an interrogation the minute she calls and says she smells gas, had a door slammed in her face and is now deliberately separated from those children.

(And of course, the police probably couldn't have stopped j, but regardless, a social worker--or whatever her official title is, should be able to quickly call and receive help when she or the children she's there to supervise, are in danger.)
 
It absolutely appalls me that I've seen so many people criticize and judge this social worker. If you listen to the 911 call you will see that it did take the social worker about 2 minutes to find the address. While two minutes is a long time in such a dire case it's not like it took her 20 minutes to figure out the address. Let me just say, I don't think the outcome would have been any different had she had the address the very second she dialed 911. I believe that for 2 reasons. First and foremost, JP had planned this - IMO, had the cops have arrived there immediately it would only have caused him to set the fire sooner. Secondly, that 911 operator did not listen to that social worker. She blatantly told him she very well thought this could be life threatening and he just blew her off. That ENRAGED me, to say the least. I personally feel that all cases (especially one that involves children + a high profile murder suspect) should be taken very seriously and treated as if they're life threatening. Listening to the way that he responded to the call makes me think that it should be the dispatching company that should be evaluating their response as opposed to the state evaluating the social workers response. I know that this dispatcher didn't know what would happen, but he is a 9-1-1 dispatcher for, heaven’s sake. I may be being a bit harsh, but I would even go so far as to say he should be fired. If you disagree, that's fine, but I would urge you to listen to that call before you make a decision.

LC, I think the majority of folks here see that the caseworker was put into a horribly bad situation. She did the best she could given what she was given to work with. DSHS, it seems, decided to agree to the "uncontrolled" environment on JP's turf. But they probably did so, in part, based on the caseworker's previous visitation notes.

JP & the boys had apparently presented as having a happy & playful relationship and the caseworker probably only noted what she was able to witness. That being said, DSHS/CPS and Pierce County LE had that notice from Utah LE and had an opportunity to recommend a change in the visitation location. They did not and the contracted agency, working on behalf of DSHS, and their worker had no recourse but to follow the recommendations of DSHS and the Judge's decision.

It is a sad situation all around but few people here blame the caseworker, IMO.
 
It absolutely appalls me that I've seen so many people criticize and judge this social worker. If you listen to the 911 call you will see that it did take the social worker about 2 minutes to find the address. While two minutes is a long time in such a dire case it's not like it took her 20 minutes to figure out the address. Let me just say, I don't think the outcome would have been any different had she had the address the very second she dialed 911. I believe that for 2 reasons. First and foremost, JP had planned this - IMO, had the cops have arrived there immediately it would only have caused him to set the fire sooner. Secondly, that 911 operator did not listen to that social worker. She blatantly told him she very well thought this could be life threatening and he just blew her off. That ENRAGED me, to say the least. I personally feel that all cases (especially one that involves children + a high profile murder suspect) should be taken very seriously and treated as if they're life threatening. Listening to the way that he responded to the call makes me think that it should be the dispatching company that should be evaluating their response as opposed to the state evaluating the social workers response. I know that this dispatcher didn't know what would happen, but he is a 9-1-1 dispatcher for, heaven&#8217;s sake. I may be being a bit harsh, but I would even go so far as to say he should be fired. If you disagree, that's fine, but I would urge you to listen to that call before you make a decision.

I agree. I cut loose with a post yesterday regarding this very issue. Each day, as more and more facts come out, it becomes increasingly obvious just how quickly these little boys met their fate at the hands of this mad man and therefore just how blameless this social worker actually was.

When we learned this 🤬🤬🤬 had went at their neck and head with a hatchet and said "I've got a surprise for you" to one child as soon as he shut the door, while the other screams or cries out immediately thereafter, what does basic logic tell you about when the slaughter began?

When documented call logs and simple arithmetic shows that this door likely closed on these little boys lives around 12:03 pm and these same call logs show calls beginning to pour in about the house exploding at 12:16 pm, what kind of training is this social worker supposed to have missed that would affect this 13 minutes?

Did she miss some kind of kung fu class on how to kick a door in?

Did she miss the lesson on how to read the mind of a mad man?

Of the 13 minutes between the door being slammed in her face and the house exploding, some unidentified amount of time on her part was spent in pounding on the door calling for him to let her in, but six minutes and 48 seconds was spent on the phone with 911. Contrary to numerous posts, she DID NOT call her supervisor before placing the 911 call. She was, in fact, on the phone with her supervisor afterwards when the house exploded!

As eager as some appear to be to sit behind their computer screens and pour out the IMO, JHMO, and MOO posts of unfounded criticism, the FACTS speak to a dedicated lady who did the best she could under any reasonable analysis of the circumstances.
 
It is very easy for a parent to put his best foot forward for the few hours that he/she is being 'supervised" or sitting in a courtroom. But, from experience, I know that it is far too common for judges to err in favor of those short-lived representations. I have seen more than a few cases where families were court ordered to under-go therapy or participate in family counseling. In a few cases, I have seen families ordered to do so at the risk of losing all parental rights. In some cases, those families were given 18 months to comply. If those parents/guardians made ONE VISIT, on the day before their hearing, the Judge granted them continued parental rights. The result was children remaining in the foster care system...sometimes being bounced from one foster family or residential facility to the next. Sometimes, if the parents made one effort, in the court ordered time frame, the children were allowed to go on "unsupervised visits" with the parents. In some cases the children were even allowed to go home with the parents. This is one of the many reasons that I finally walked away from the profession of Social Work.

Another reason for leaving the profession and the straw that broke the camel's back, for me, was that caseworkers are poorly protected and/or supported by the public and private agencies who employ them. The threat of lawsuits by parents and the discontinuance of public funding prevents many administrators from doing what is right for both their employees and their clients (the children.)
 
It is very easy for a parent to put his best foot forward for the few hours that he/she is being 'supervised" or sitting in a courtroom. But, from experience, I know that it is far too common for judges to err in favor of those short-lived representations. I have seen more than a few cases where families were court ordered to under-go therapy or participate in family counseling. In a few cases, I have seen families ordered to do so at the risk of losing all parental rights. In some cases, those families were given 18 months to comply. If those parents/guardians made ONE VISIT, on the day before their hearing, the Judge granted them continued parental rights. The result was children remaining in the foster care system...sometimes being bounced from one foster family or residential facility to the next. Sometimes, if the parents made one effort, in the court ordered time frame, the children were allowed to go on "unsupervised visits" with the parents. In some cases the children were even allowed to go home with the parents. This is one of the many reasons that I finally walked away from the profession of Social Work.

Another reason for leaving the profession and the straw that broke the camel's back, for me, was that caseworkers are poorly protected and/or supported by the public and private agencies who employ them. The threat of lawsuits by parents and the discontinuance of public funding prevents many administrators from doing what is right for both their employees and their clients (the children.)

These are really important details. The entire system and how it makes decisions, on what kinds of evidence, really needs to be looked at.
 
These are really important details. The entire system and how it makes decisions, on what kinds of evidence, really needs to be looked at.

Not to mention, chain of command and what drives these decisions.
 

Staff online

Members online

Online statistics

Members online
195
Guests online
1,348
Total visitors
1,543

Forum statistics

Threads
625,850
Messages
18,511,933
Members
240,860
Latest member
mossed logs
Back
Top