2012.02.07 - 911 Tapes Released

[Dr.Fessel]

There is a clip here with the 911 guy. I don't think he is going to take any responsibility for his actions. [ame="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3032600/vp/46301645#46301645"]Dateline NBC: News stories about crime, celebrity and health[/ame]

 

[suzihawk]

I thought we'd gotten past criticizing the SW? It's easy (and arrogant, IMO) for anyone to think they could do a better job while sitting in the comfort of their homes watching the events unfold on television.

The woman did the absolute best she could under an extremely stressful situation, IMHO.

:sigh:

 

[karen7868]

There is a clip here with the 911 guy. I don't think he is going to take any responsibility for his actions. Dateline NBC: News stories about crime, celebrity and health

Thanks for posting.

Oh, this makes me even madder. So, he thinks he should haved "questioned" her more about the gas. He asked her enough questions. My gosh, he was so adamant about getting her license plate number, color of her car.

And yes, they maybe would have not rushed in, but maybe they could have gotten JP's attention to still have prevented it.

I hope he is fired. It was not his job to determine if the call was a life & death situation. She plainly stated she was "scared for their lives". Again I ask, what part of that did he not understand.

 

[Paige SC]

I thought we'd gotten past criticizing the SW? It's easy (and arrogant, IMO) for anyone to think they could do a better job while sitting in the comfort of their homes watching the events unfold on television.

The woman did the absolute best she could under an extremely stressful situation, IMHO.

:sigh:

No one is criticizing her. I am rather, stating how I could see how the 911 operator didn't view it as a life threatening emergency at the first part of her call. The reporting of the gasoline; it wasn't clear where she was smelling. She didn't mention it until she got to her car and was moving it out of the driveway. She never stated she thought the smell of gas was coming from inside the house where the boys were locked. Clearly the 911 operator wasn't the sharpest tack in the box but I can understand how he wouldn't have been under the impression Josh Powell was planning to blow up the house with the kids inside.

 

[Paige SC]

There is a clip here with the 911 guy. I don't think he is going to take any responsibility for his actions. Dateline NBC: News stories about crime, celebrity and health

In this clip he said that he wished he had recognized the urgency of the situation and that it's been a nightmare. It was painful for him to listen to the 911 tapes.

http://www.king5.com/news/local/911-operator-139133404.html

PS.. He will be on Dateline tonite at 10 est, if that hasn't been mentioned before.

 

[dovebar]

No one is criticizing her. I am rather, stating how I could see how the 911 operator didn't view it as a life threatening emergency at the first part of her call. The reporting of the gasoline; it wasn't clear where she was smelling. She didn't mention it until she got to her car and was moving it out of the driveway. She never stated she thought the smell of gas was coming from inside the house where the boys were locked. Clearly the 911 operator wasn't the sharpest tack in the box but I can understand how he wouldn't have been under the impression Josh Powell was planning to blow up the house with the kids inside.

A truly interesting study for a communications researcher to do would be a study of how much 911 operators respond to tone of voice and pitch to assess "threat level." In other words, if someone does call and say, "HELP HELP HELP!!! My kids are in danger!!!" shouting and crying, does the operator's nervous system immediately kick into emergency mode? I imagine it would be quite interesting to use some medical study tools to study the nervous systems of 911 operators responding to various kinds of calls and see what happens, and how that affects their response. I agree that her demeanor was puzzled and calm, and so his seemed to match it. I find that a curious match that should be studied in order to see if it can be avoided in the future.

In other words, should we all be trained about how to make a 911 call that really gets attention, that overrides a calm match by the 911 operator - in the same way that women are often trained in self-defense classes not to yell "rape!" but "FIRE, FIRE!!!" Or children are taught not to yell, "let me go!" but "this is not my father, help me!"

This terrible incident certainly has made me want to more about how 911 operators are trained as well. He was snide about waiting for the address but he may have been responding to an internal assumption that she would have it ready if she really needed help. He did not seem to know what a "supervised visit" is, and that seems like something that all 911 operators should know. As I posted earlier, that also seems a very easy place to start in providing supervisors with a protocol: a place they put the address on their body whenever they go on one, and a code phrase they could use to get an immediate response from the 911 operator, in the same way that CODE BLUE means one thing and one thing only to hospital personnel.

 

[dovebar]

I thought we'd gotten past criticizing the SW? It's easy (and arrogant, IMO) for anyone to think they could do a better job while sitting in the comfort of their homes watching the events unfold on television.

The woman did the absolute best she could under an extremely stressful situation, IMHO.

:sigh:

Yes, but why can't we examine it in a calm way and learn from it? And why isn't he given the same benefit of the doubt? Gender? They were both professionals. There was a complete breakdown of the system. Both "failed" to do their jobs - yet both were humans trying to do their jobs. It is more productive to figure out how that just didn't happen - beyond name-calling of either one.

In a hospital, when someone dies in surgery, there is a clear-eyed review of everything that was done, in hopes to avoid it in the future. That does not mean someone should/should not be fired, disciplined, or sued as an assumption.

 

[passionflower]

I was a 911 operator years ago when I was only 20 years old.
I know that I was taught to hook up immediately to fire, police and then continue to get vital info.
This was in the old times when everything was time stamped,
and notes on shorthand for info.
Then old 'connction cords'.......yes and no luxuries of the computer digital world.
I did have many terrible, terrible calls come in and I remember them 40 years later.
The very first thing you do is send help and listen in on everything.
I just do not get this guys reasoning.
She told him '2 little boys', she was a caseworker, she smelled gas..........IMO
he should lose his job!
I have been there and I know what is right and what is wrong here! JMOO

 

[annalia]

Yes, but why can't we examine it in a calm way and learn from it? And why isn't he given the same benefit of the doubt? Gender? They were both professionals. There was a complete breakdown of the system. Both "failed" to do their jobs - yet both were humans trying to do their jobs. It is more productive to figure out how that just didn't happen - beyond name-calling of either one.

In a hospital, when someone dies in surgery, there is a clear-eyed review of everything that was done, in hopes to avoid it in the future. That does not mean someone should/should not be fired, disciplined, or sued as an assumption.

my bolding

How exactly did the SW fail to do her job?

 

[dovebar]

my bolding

How exactly did the SW fail to do her job?

At a literal level, she was to supervise the visit. She allowed the boys to go into the house ahead of her and he was able to shut the door so as to make that impossible. One could argue she was insufficiently on guard because she had become comfortable with this perp and he knew that (of course, I am sure he was willing to kill her if he needed to). She is lucky to be alive. But she did "fail" to supervise the visit. The 911 operator failed to get the right information soon enough to possibly save the boys from smoke inhalation. If we cannot look at all the elements of the situation, we cannot look at how to prevent future ones.

That's why I, and many here, have argued that this perp should never have had visitation at the home because there were too many easy ways that this woman could have been prevented from doing her job, or overpowered and harmed herself - and she was. All the things that went wrong here need to be looked at and changed.

 

[dovebar]

< mod snip>

To be precise, I'm not faulting her or saying she should have "done a better job." Earlier, I posted that I think there is a neurological inability to rapidly figure out the situation in ORDER to communicate its urgency - that is, the mind of the sane person cannot possibly anticipate the plans of the murderous psychopath - unless they are looking for it.

That's why, on his behavior cited in his parents' divorce papers, his status as a "person of interest," his wife's disappearance, and the images on his computer, he should never have had home visitation. The social worker's shock prevented her for anything other than the puzzled response she first had. You can hear her anxiety rise but it can't keep up with his actions because he had the jump on her.

That is also why I think the situation alone - the door closing on ANY supervised visitation, even one with a nonviolent perp - should IN AND OF ITSELF constitute an emergency. If it did, she would have had a hand-delivered response that would have ASSISTED HER.

I don't know if that makes sense - I am trying to suggest a way that no one social worker or court supervisor in the future will have to go through this and be in their position, because they will have a mental code that overrides their shock and assists them in getting help.

One last thing: outdoor wilderness training has such codes. One is STOP: stop, think, observe, plan. People must deliberately train themselves to use this series of actions because neurologically, when lost, our brains lead us to go on and on and on....and this is how we get lost. So wilderness training gives us a mental code to use to override our "animal" brain.

 

[cluciano63]

I am shocked that there has not always been a policy that for supervised visits, the SW must go in first and check the meeting place for anything unsafe or threatening. That should be basic safety 101. Why even enter WITH the children, say nothing of after? Sure, in this case, she would probably have been attacked and ended up dying, but there has to be a simple solution; either do not allow parents any visits if they have been deemed to be not safe to be alone with their children, or have multiple SW's for these visits. A single SW makes no sense. The courts had already said he was not fit to see the children on his own. Doesn't that mean anything???

That said, this woman was a victim and is lucky to be alive. If she had walked in first, she would have been killed, I have no doubt. But in no way do I believe it ever crossed her mind at that point (when the kids ran ahead) that they were running to their deaths. JMO

OT but my niece worked as a SW for two years out of college in a large city, but she came to fear her job so much that she had to quit. In that short amount of time, she was assaulted by parents on more than one occassion, and she was always alone, going into terrible situations in dangerous neighborhoods. She still doesn't forgive herself for not being tough enough to handle the job she trained for...

 

[Paige SC]

At a literal level, she was to supervise the visit. She allowed the boys to go into the house ahead of her and he was able to shut the door so as to make that impossible. One could argue she was insufficiently on guard because she had become comfortable with this perp and he knew that (of course, I am sure he was willing to kill her if he needed to). She is lucky to be alive. But she did "fail" to supervise the visit. The 911 operator failed to get the right information soon enough to possibly save the boys from smoke inhalation. If we cannot look at all the elements of the situation, we cannot look at how to prevent future ones.

That's why I, and many here, have argued that this perp should never have had visitation at the home because there were too many easy ways that this woman could have been prevented from doing her job, or overpowered and harmed herself - and she was. All the things that went wrong here need to be looked at and changed.

BRAAAAAHHHHHHHH VOOOOOEEEE :rocker:

 

[dovebar]

I am shocked that there has not always been a policy that for supervised visits, the SW must go in first and check the meeting place for anything unsafe or threatening. That should be basic safety 101. Why even enter WITH the children, say nothing of after? Sure, in this case, she would probably have been attacked and ended up dying, but there has to be a simple solution; either do not allow parents any visits if they have been deemed to be not safe to be alone with their children, or have multiple SW's for these visits. A single SW makes no sense. The courts had already said he was not fit to see the children on his own. Doesn't that mean anything???

That said, this woman was a victim and is lucky to be alive. If she had walked in first, she would have been killed, I have no doubt. But in no way do I believe it ever crossed her mind at that point (when the kids ran ahead) that they were running to their deaths. JMO

Sadly, like a Ted Bundy, he had the ability to appear "normal" to his boss, his sister, people he wanted to charm. I'm sure he didn't play Naked Dad in front of her.

cluciano63, so sad about your relative. Yes, a tough, tough job.

 

[cluciano63]

Sadly, like a Ted Bundy, he had the ability to appear "normal" to his boss, his sister, people he wanted to charm. I'm sure he didn't play Naked Dad in front of her.

cluciano63, so sad about your relative. Yes, a tough, tough job.

No matter how "normal" he appeared, if he was truly "normal" wouldn't his visits have been unsupervised, like other parents? There is always a reason if this precaution is put in place (even if it doesn't work...)

 

[Paige SC]

To be precise, I'm not faulting her or saying she should have "done a better job." Earlier, I posted that I think there is a neurological inability to rapidly figure out the situation in ORDER to communicate its urgency - that is, the mind of the sane person cannot possibly anticipate the plans of the murderous psychopath - unless they are looking for it.

That's why, on his behavior cited in his parents' divorce papers, his status as a "person of interest," his wife's disappearance, and the images on his computer, he should never have had home visitation. The social worker's shock prevented her for anything other than the puzzled response she first had. You can hear her anxiety rise but it can't keep up with his actions because he had the jump on her.

That is also why I think the situation alone - the door closing on ANY supervised visitation, even one with a nonviolent perp - should IN AND OF ITSELF constitute an emergency. If it did, she would have had a hand-delivered response that would have ASSISTED HER.

I don't know if that makes sense - I am trying to suggest a way that no one social worker or court supervisor in the future will have to go through this and be in their position, because they will have a mental code that overrides their shock and assists them in getting help.

One last thing: outdoor wilderness training has such codes. One is STOP: stop, think, observe, plan. People must deliberately train themselves to use this series of actions because neurologically, when lost, our brains lead us to go on and on and on....and this is how we get lost. So wilderness training gives us a mental code to use to override our "animal" brain.

this wasn't the fault of either the SW or the 911 operator but I personally see where BOTH could stand some improvement. I wouldn't even be posting about it but so many here want the 911 operator's head delivered on a platter and I think it's completely ufair. I'm sure he is beating himself up right now more than anyone and wished he had done many things differently. She stated in her interview she "did everything right" and everything went wrong. Great things can be learned here but pointing blame SOLELY on the 911 op is out of line. His lack of action didn't cost those boys their lives. All I know for sure is that if I need to call 911, I will scream my head off as to make sure my call isn't mistaken for a routine one.

 

[sunsetbeach]

I'm curious why the CPS lady did not know the address to which she just drove to ... 2 min to find the address??

They ought to fire that male 911 Op! He asked way to many questions that didn't matter and wasted too much time!

Sorry, I am quoting my own post but I wanted to say even though I was disturbed by the fact the CPS lady didn't know the address ... I have no idea how many times she drove there. So I am wrong to throw ANY kind of blame her way. After thinking about it, I myself drive to places that I have no clue what the address is because I have driven there once/twice and it seems like old hat. Case in point my brother's house. I know where it is and have been there many times but honestly I can NOT tell you his address. I know the street but not the house number. So my previous post was so wrong on many levels. I have never been in a situation like this so I can NOT even think about putting this woman's shoes on. I was soooo very wrong to pass judgement on her in the way I did. She is just as human as I am and like I said before I don't even know my own brothers address yet I go there all the time.

I saw this woman this morning on TV and my heart absolutely breaks for her.

I think so many people failed these children that had the authority to make a difference BUT most of all their own Dad failed them. I'm not sorry he is gone, I just wished he would have just killed himself because he is a coward. He took three lives that should still be here today. Josh's own father failed him and he is a product of his own upbringing. SP has a perverted mind and I am starting to believe he had something to do with this (the murder of Susan). He wanted Susan in the worst way. He may have provoked his own son with lies. JP & SP are evil people but one wouldn't have been here without the other.

Just happened to get an alert from my email and the new headline is that they just found a comforter with blood on it in a storage unit that JP rented. Who the h e double hockey sticks does this??? He had all the time in the world to burn it while living with his father. Why didn't he??? Could someone (SP) else have put it there? This is one crazy family if I've ever seen one. Something is very wrong with this whole picture.

Many thoughts and prayers go out to the whole Cox family in their time of need. I do not understand where they get their strength because this is just horrible. One thing I do know for sure is that someone is walking this journey with them ... someone you and I can not see.

 

[Isabelle]

The visitation supervisor did absolutely nothing wrong. She should not have been expected to know she was dealing with a narcissistic sociopath who had no regard for human life. There probably was a good reason that she did not enter the home ahead of the boys, maybe God was not ready for her to die; she still has great things to do for the most vulnerable in society, children! Hindsight is 20/20 and unless you are we are in her shoes we shouldn't criticize. Now the 911 operator, that is another story!

 

[dovebar]

In many communities, there are drives to get people to post their house numbers clearly, and to spray paint them on the curb as well. Yet I am continually surprised when I go to places where this is not the case. If only people realized how dangerous this is for their own lives in emergency situations, when first-responders cannot find the place.

This is another step we can all take.

 

[sunsetbeach]

In many communities, there are drives to get people to post their house numbers clearly, and to spray paint them on the curb as well. Yet I am continually surprised when I go to places where this is not the case. If only people realized how dangerous this is for their own lives in emergency situations, when first-responders cannot find the place.

This is another step we can all take.

EXACTLY! And we (my husband and I) are a prime example of that. We have NO house number on our house or driveway. We live in the country. There is a house # on our mailbox but there are two mailboxes in front of our house. The other one belongs to the house across the street. OMGosh this could mean life or death in an emergency.

Thank you so much for pointing this out because I AM going to change this right away!

ETA: I thought about this right after we moved here (6 years ago) but I nor my husband ever did anything about it. :shakeshead: