4 Univ of Idaho Students Murdered, Bryan Kohberger Arrested, Moscow, 2022 #79

[schooling]

I don't think there will be any problem showing that the 2014-2015 elantra captured on cameras heading in a direction consistent with leaving Pullman at c2.50ish is BK's car. Nor that the approx five camera captures beginning at Johnston Rd and ending on north on NE Stadium Way Pullman rc5.25-5.30am are showing BK's car. Because... BK's phone pings have been shown to be congruent with all of those camera captures (Per PCA). And through BK's phone pinging at 4.48am near Blaine and then continuosly pinging all the way until the 2014/-2015 elantra is captured on Johnston Road, it will also probably not be too difficult for prosecution to successfully infer that BK's car was south of Moscow near Blaine at 4.48am. That's the starting point from what we know so far, IMO. MOO

This is essentially what I shared two posts ago but rambled on as usual burying the lede...

LE had a strong case with the car by just presenting the (likely) brightly lit Pullman videos showing 2am'ish going and 4am'ish coming. And the daytime grocery store video the next day showing BK exiting and entering that same car. All tied to cell tower data.

IMO The fact that they knew the misidentification of the car would likely be used in any defense but still decided to go into great detail about the car's travels through Moscow telegraphs how confident they are about the CCTV (particularly in it's relationship to cell tower data).

 

[jepop]

I don't know about Idaho, but where I am, it's entirely possible that the various sides have spoken to each other, but that the defense still has to protect their client's rights by getting a judge to sort the issue. There are several ways for the State to indicate its issues, but eventually, they will either have to do it in front of judge (if the defense isn't satisfied with the explanation) and then the Judge will decide if the State has good reason or not.

I don't think a motion is the only way it can happen (I know of many examples where things were worked out without a motion). But at some point, the defense really has to make it part of the record if certain items thought to exist or to have been documented do not exist or have not been discovered (because the State cannot later act as if those conversations, reports or notes existed or took place).

If the Defense does not believe the State, then a motion is the way to go. Sometimes motions are withdrawn when things are finally produced or settled (errors get made; things are mislabeled, etc). If the State has already told the Defense that X exists (has referred to it but hasn't produced it in a timely fashion), filing a motion protects their client.

IMO.

Thank you so much. Your response almost instantly helped me clarify my thoughts which were getting bogged down in all the legal stuff. I am learning the court/trial language properly for the first time, and this really helps.

ETA: So I think you are saying the only way to get it "on the record" (which is essential) is through a motion.
edit spelling

 

[Teche]

Published May 10, 2023 10:28am EDT

Idaho murders suspect Bryan Kohberger hires new lawyer​

Bryan Kohberger's new defense lawyer known for 'America's Most Wanted' case​

View attachment 421332
Elisa G. Massoth, PLLC Attorney - certified to defend death penalty cases

Massoth claims on her website to be "one of the top criminal defense lawyers in Idaho."

One of her previous cases includes the overturning of a conviction for a man accused of attempted murder and kidnapping. The case appeared on "America's Most Wanted," and he received four consecutive life sentences plus 50 years, according to the National Registry of Exonerations.

However, Massoth, on appeal, convinced that court that the witness had mistakenly identified her client.

Edwina Elcox, a Boise-based criminal defense attorney who previously represented Lori Vallow and is not connected to Kohberger's case, said Massoth has a strong reputation opposing "the might of the government" in Idaho courts.

Massoth joins Kohberger's defense shortly after Latah County Prosecutor Bill Thompson called in backup from the Idaho Attorney General's Office, bringing in two high-powered assistant attorney generals from Boise.
Thompson asked the court for their "expertise" and "the additional resources" their office could provide. The request was granted that same day by District Judge John Judge, court records show.

Idaho murders suspect Bryan Kohberger hires new lawyer

University of Idaho student murders suspect Bryan Kohberger added a new private defense lawyer to his team this week as his preliminary hearing approaches.

www.foxnews.com

Idaho Lawyer - Elisa G Massoth PLLC

Need an attorney in Idaho? Talk to an experienced attorney with a proven track record in Criminal Defense, Civil Law, and Estate Planning.

kmrs.net

Did his defense attorney step aside?

 

[Sundog]

Did his defense attorney step aside?

No, Ann Taylor is still BK's attorney, but the new attorney has joined the defense team.

 

[10ofRods]

Did his defense attorney step aside?

Nope. Now he has three capital qualified lawyers. Maybe I'm completely off base, but to me, that says the State may be preparing a capital case and the evidence, as it is, makes the Court want to make sure Kohberger has ample and qualified representation. The woman hired in the past couple of days is expert at demolishing eyewitness testimony.

And that makes me a bit uneasy. I don't think DM's testimony is crucial - unless this defense is desperate. Or the State's case lacks better digital forensics (I believe that once they get records from all cell masts and towers in Moscow - and not just the ones already processed, which were just the shared cell towers, not all of the masts, there will be ample digital forensics to make or break this case).

The fact that three capital qualified lawyers are now on board makes me lean toward "he's in deep advertiser censored stuff."

IMO.

 

[Cool Cats]

Thank you so much. Your response almost instantly helped me clarify my thoughts which were getting bogged down in all the legal stuff. I am learning the court/trial language properly for the first time, and this really helps.

ETA: So I think you are saying the only way to get it "on the record" (which is essential) is through a motion.
edit spelling

You post in detail, good at finding information. I thought you had been posting about trials for years.

Motions go on the record but some are sealed and a judge decides who sees them. A court clerk or a court reporter takes down a record of oral proceedings and you can get transcripts.

Not all court cases are put on the record, criminal trials are, but there can be conversations off the record like in the judge's chamber or a side bar. For example, most small claims courts, traffic courts, justice courts presided over by justices of the peace, many administrative tribunals that make initial governmental administrative decisions such as government benefit determinations, and the like, are not courts of record.

Off the Record Law and Legal Definition | USLegal, Inc.

Off the record refers to a conversation not being transcribed as part of the record of the proceedings. It may refer to a sidebar in court where the attorneys approach the bench to confer with the

definitions.uslegal.com

Court of record - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Off the record refers to a conversation not being transcribed as part of the record of the proceedings. It may refer to a sidebar in court where the attorneys approach the bench to confer with the judge. Because the conversation is not to be heard by jurors and recorded, the conversation may be said to be off the record. It is not transcribed by the court reporter and made part of the trial record.

On the record

A court of record is a trial court or appellate court in which a record of the proceedings is captured and preserved, for the possibility of appeal.[1][2][3] A court clerk or a court reporter takes down a record of oral proceedings.[4] That written record (and all other evidence) is preserved at least long enough for all appeals to be exhausted, or for some further period of time provided by law (for example, in some U.S. states, death penalty statutes provide that all evidence must be preserved for an extended period of time).

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

This isn't yet a death penalty case. It's shaping up to be one, certainly. But it is not one today. IANAL, so from my layperson's perspective, if stating "I have given you everything I have" is the true and right answer, then I would expect that to suffice no matter the charges. I don't see how "everything" would require amplification.

OTOH, if the true and right answer is "I have given you everything except a, b, and c" then I agree that the DA should at least state why a, b, and c have not been provided. MOOooo

The fact that it isn't a DP case yet is only because the PH hasn't happened yet. I can't imagine that it won't be. The defense already has 3 DP-qualified attorneys. "I have given you everything I have" is a lousy response, IMO. It may be just games the prosecution is playing, but it isn't an appropriate response to things the prosecution is expected to have had months ago. We'll see what the judge says.

MOO

 

[Twistinginthewind]

This is anecdotal, y'all... regarding BK's driving "skills" and mine. JMO.

I grew up in a rural area not far from where BK grew up.

I could have been a not-so-skilled driver in my 20s before I earned my chops as a driver, practice makes perfect, IMO.

But even then, when I was still a relatively inexperienced young driver, I knew, and everyone I knew (e.g., my Driver's Ed Instructor, my parents and siblings and neighbors who taught me how to drive, my friends, and locals) that pulling into an intersection before traffic cleared (being so impatient to not want to have to wait for another green light if it was about to turn red to make my move), well, it was just "not done" and was risky, aggressive behavior that you would get ticketed for if you were caught by LE.

I even had it drilled into me hard that you should be a "defensive driver" and definitely "wait behind the line" to see what other drivers are going to do before you move into the intersection and risk getting stuck under a red light or causing an accident, rather than "jump the light".

Therefore, I agree with OP that BK doing that (as discussed here recently) was problematic, otherwise he wouldn't have been pulled over for it, regardless of how he may or may not have talked the LEO out of giving him a ticket because he said he was not familiar with crosswalks and such.

JMO

 

[Nova]

If it's info that isn't discoverable, the onus is on the STATE to say so. Sorry, but I don't buy that this is the reason behind their failure to comply. They had adequate time and opportunity to draft an appropriate response explaining why this information isn't being turned over.

MOO.

You may be right, but how in the world would any of us know?

You appear to be assuming the Kohberger case is the only thing on the prosecutor's desk. We really have no idea how many cases s/he is juggling, nor how big a staff the county provides.

Again, others have pointed out that some matters are discoverable ONLY if they are to be used at trial. That decision may not be made yet, no matter how light or heavy the workload.

 

[girlhasnoname]

I know someone who owned a 2013 for 6 years. They purchased it brand new in 2012.

I was with them when they were shopping their car around for the best trade deal. Their car was next to a 2015 and they couldn't tell the difference......

Until the car was turned on. IMO the LEDs in the 2015 make/made a big difference. And modernized the look of the car, especially at night. And the brightness difference was stark. After they didn't find a reasonable trade in deal they considered doing a LED conversion to their car to update it with the 2015 look.

How this translates to video when lights tend to blur and cluster, I don't know.....? Why did the expert initially confuse the two? How quickly did he notice this confusion and why wasn't it communicated to the public? All of those questions will be answered soon.

If prosecutors had any doubts of the car. They wouldn't have relied on it in the PCA as much as they did. Particularly when the car leaves the area of the campus and his apartment. They had enough with cellular, dna, and the likely brightly lit WA videos.

I think ultimately the grocery store video (day after the murders) will be crucial and key to connecting the two cars. The one on the night of the crime to the one BK is driving the next morning...both linked to the same cell tower positioning and number.

Initially LE was looking for a model between 2011-2013. As more info. and CCTV video came in they were able to narrow it down. Once LE identified BK's car, they still disseminated 2013-2016 in order not to tip him off until they had the necessary evidence to charge him.

BK did change his plates from PA to WA 5 days after the murders, I think that was definitely in order to try and conceal the identity.

Search for white Hyundai was key in Bryan Kohberger case
<snipped>

The car's first pass by the home was recorded at 3:29 a.m. on Nov. 13 — less than an hour before Kaylee Goncalves, Madison Mogen, Xana Kernodle and Ethan Chapin were stabbed to death in their rooms, Moscow Police Cpl. Brett Payne wrote in the affidavit.

The vehicle drove by twice more and was recorded a fourth time at 4:04 a.m., Payne wrote. It wasn't seen on the footage again until it sped away 16 minutes later.

 

[Boxer]

No, Ann Taylor is still BK's attorney, but the new attorney has joined the defense team.

Does that mean the state is paying for 3 capital certified attorneys for BK? Isn't he only entitled to two?

 

[North_Idaho_Nony]

Does that mean the state is paying for 3 capital certified attorneys for BK? Isn't he only entitled to two?

He’s entitled to “no less than two (2) qualified Capital Defending Attorneys”:
https://adminrules.idaho.gov/rules/current/61/610102.pdf

Page 5, last 2 lines

 

[Charlot123]

TBF, I am a little surprised that I don't see any crosswalks near the high school he attended nor anywhere close by (very different to the semi-rural area where I grew up - we did have very well marked crosswalks, now with those buttons that make a flashing light).

There are indeed crosswalks near that pub where he was confronted. Many of them. And since he went there more than once, he would have had to drive through the town (where there are many more crosswalks).

I can't say if it was intentional, although that seems likely. I mean, maybe he just constantly says odd, untrue things in order to watch people's faces and see how they react. The community college he attended also appears to have crosswalks nearby - although, TBH, not nearly as many as I would have expected. The things I end up pondering due to WS!

When I think about his two traffic stops in Pullman/Moscow area, his issues with other students, his issues with the prof and as a TA, and his apparent lack of a local support system, I think he snapped and I'd like to know more about that. His demeanor in a traffic stop is obviously going to be more tense than in other contexts, but it sounds as if he was socially inappropriate on several occasions (I had forgotten about the pub). I also figure he mostly attended online school once he was past community college (perhaps even there, it was online).

IMO.

About the traffic stop in Pullman.

What are policemen taught to do during a traffic stop? - Be watchful, you don't know if it is a nice passenger or an armed robber.

BK does everything to make the policewoman feel at ease. His body is relaxed, especially the shoulders. He even either pats or stacks his documents reassuringly before giving them to her. I bet it should make the policeman feel relaxed (no gun).

Then, by asking her a question, he puts her in control. She starts explaining him the driving rules of WA and the crossroad becomes her classroom.

And then he baits by saying that he is from rural PA. Given that Pullman's major event of the year is Lentil festival. WSU being the biggest employer, the inhabitants of the town probably feel a certain rift between themselves and the students' body, and in a second, BK bridges this gap. It is obvious that he is from WSU, but he humbly listens to her lecture, makes her feel like a city-dweller lecturing an uncouth farmer, and avoids the ticket. All in 10 minutes.

This ability to relax the body is common for actors and athletes. BK is neither and everyone says, not social. Strange that he has it. I wish we saw the whole scene, and the policewoman, too.

 

[girlhasnoname]

About the traffic stop in Pullman.

What are policemen taught to do during a traffic stop? - Be watchful, you don't know if it is a nice passenger or an armed robber.

BK does everything to make the policewoman feel at ease. His body is relaxed, especially the shoulders. He even either pats or stacks his documents reassuringly before giving them to her. I bet it should make the policeman feel relaxed (no gun).

Then, by asking her a question, he puts her in control. She starts explaining him the driving rules of WA and the crossroad becomes her classroom.

And then he baits by saying that he is from rural PA. Given that Pullman's major event of the year is Lentil festival. WSU being the biggest employer, the inhabitants of the town probably feel a certain rift between themselves and the students' body, and in a second, BK bridges this gap. It is obvious that he is from WSU, but he humbly listens to her lecture, makes her feel like a city-dweller lecturing an uncouth farmer, and avoids the ticket. All in 10 minutes.

This ability to relax the body is common for actors and athletes. BK is neither and everyone says, not social. Strange that he has it. I wish we saw the whole scene, and the policewoman, too.

I love how we can all glean different things from watching the same video, very interesting observation about relaxing the shoulders.

BK was overweight in early high school photos. He then lost over 100 lbs and IIRC was into boxing and running. Perhaps that's where that ability was learned?

I see the video a bit differently, more or less playing dumb at the beginning, but escalating into 'showing' just how smart he was in all the questions he continued afterward. It's almost like he played innocent to actually gain dominance over the officer.

JMO

ETA: This happened about a month before the murders, I do wonder if BK was so working hard not to get a ticket because he already had plans going?

 

[girlhasnoname]

<snipped> Items 34 and 45 are interesting to me:

Full list of items seized from suspect Bryan Kohberger's home revealed

 

[TL4S]

<snipped> Items 34 and 45 are interesting to me:

View attachment 421437
Full list of items seized from suspect Bryan Kohberger's home revealed

What does number 34 say? 10 ____ inside glove box?

 

[iamshadow21]

What does number 34 say? 10 ____ inside glove box?

The handwriting is awful, but general collective opinion is that it says 'cards'. This is based on looking at how the writer forms certain letters throughout the rest of the document.

MOO

 

[jepop]

What does number 34 say? 10 ____ inside glove box?

To me 34 says something like, "A man's... [world??]...drawing"? The writing really is atrocious! MOO

The glove thing is number 35, IMO. Take your pick from:

"ID cards inside glove inside box"
or
"10 cards inside glove inside box"
or
"...[indecipherable]...inside glove inside box"

or, if you are some certain MSM outlets (from memory)

"10 curls inside glove inside box"

MOO

 

[jepop]

There appear to be quotation marks around “ A Man’s World”. Could it be this Pauline Boty drawing?

Sources: “It’s a Man’s World I”

Pauline Boty, “It’s a Man’s World I”, 1964 Pauline Boty’s 1964 painting is one of her major works and the only one forming part of a series, together with It’s a Man’s World II from 1964–5.The key …

paulineboty.org

View attachment 421439

Wow, good thoughts and nice find! Maybe it is. So looking forward to seeing the officially transcribed lists from the PA warrants at some point.

 

[BeginnerSleuther]

You may be right, but how in the world would any of us know?

I'm not really expecting anyone to know. We're all stating our opinions because none of us know.

You appear to be assuming the Kohberger case is the only thing on the prosecutor's desk. We really have no idea how many cases s/he is juggling, nor how big a staff the county provides.

Again, others have pointed out that some matters are discoverable ONLY if they are to be used at trial. That decision may not be made yet, no matter how light or heavy the workload.

I'm not assuming the Kohberger case is the only thing on the prosecutor's desk. Not at all. By law, they need to comply with the defense's requests. If they can't or choose not to, they should state that. The defense clearly feels there is exculpatory evidence in some of this, so I don't believe that these particular things would be "discoverable only if they are used at trial." There is no sound reason I can think of that Moscow PD notes weren't turned over.

MOO.