Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #209

[photographer4]

Nor sure what you mean.

His treatment was not heinous.
He made it that.
Did he come forward as the unknown person who parked at Freedom Bridge that day?
Of course not.

Bold in your prior post and red applied by me for the sake of clarity:

I was asking, what control did RA have over his treatment, if any? You said his treatment was not heinous. He made it that. How was his treatment in his control? Ty.

 

[snooptroop88]

Boxcutter was unrealistic

It’s a rare weapon to be used in a murder, but the point is that it can be incredibly effective under the right circumstances.

Saying it is “unrealistic” is belied by history and Allen’s access to them on a daily basis (home and at work).

If it can work effectively on grown adults, then a couple teen girls wouldn’t have had a chance.

And the crime scene shows that Libby did try to escape, likely after she was slashed.

I agree it's not what one would expect, and that's what makes it all the more a crucial point that one expert speculated that nonetheless, this type of weapon could indeed have been used in this case.

Source: Dr. Kohr initially surmised a serrated knife was used to make the cuts, but says he thought about the cut marks in the past few months. He now believes a box cutter was used as the weapon. Kohr said he did not create a supplemental report because he felt it would be speculative, but not definitive.
...During redirect, defense attorney Brad Rozzi asked Kohr, "You can't say a box cutter was used?"
Kohr responded, "Not definitively, no."

Delphi Murders Trial: Day 5 | 'Bridge Guy' sighting, autopsy photos, and digital forensics

Day 5 of the Delphi Murders trial included testimony from a witness who claims to have seen "Bridge Guy" on the day Abby Williams and Libby German went missing.

www.wrtv.com

 

[m00c0w]

Its rare...and I think the circumstances were very different...I think the evidence disproves the boxcutter theory. Actually there has been nothing confirmed that has not been common knowledge. I wish the boxcutter matched up because it would have been a detail that could have proven guilt, but it is one more piece of evidence that is showing his "confessions" are nothing more then stories...

BBM

You are in luck, because the medical examiner testified just that very thing under oath.

JMO

 

[MassGuy]

Its rare...and I think the circumstances were very different...I think the evidence disproves the boxcutter theory. Actually there has been nothing confirmed that has not been common knowledge. I wish the boxcutter matched up because it would have been a detail that could have proven guilt, but it is one more piece of evidence that is showing his "confessions" are nothing more then stories...

Look at the length and depth of those wounds. A boxcutter fits perfectly.

A common weapon would have been a knife, but these weren’t stab wounds, and no one just slashes a victim with a knife.

I mean it happens but that’s rare from what I’ve seen.

 

[Crazyjster]

Kohr said he did not create a supplemental report because he felt it would be speculative, but not definitive.

All that matters is what the jury is allowed to hear...and they did not hear boxcutter

 

[Boxer]

Bold in your prior post and red applied by me for the sake of clarity:

I was asking, what control did RA have over his treatment, if any? You said his treatment was not heinous. He made it that. How was his treatment in his control? Ty.

As an example, suicide threats are met by anri- suicide protocols.

 

[m00c0w]

All that matters is what the jury is allowed to hear...and they did not hear boxcutter

Huh? He testified to a box cutter under oath in open court. You replied to a summary of the testimony…

 

[Crazyjster]

Huh? He testified to a box cutter under oath in open court. You replied to a summary of the testimony…

ohh my bad

 

[IHAVENOCLUE]

Just an opinion but ... Richard Allen is on trial. The evidence should relate to his participation in the murder, not the possibility that someone else did it. If he is not guilty, he can produce his phone from 2017 as evidence. He can also produce his blue coat that he wore that day.

He has known since 2017 that he could be implicated in the murders because he placed himself there at the time of the abductions. He should have held onto everything that could exonerate him if he's innocent.

I cannot like this post enough!!!

 

[EllaMinnowP]

I have been concerned since the arrest affidavit for RA was made public that he could be innocent.(*Admittedly biased by my disappointment with LE and the bits and pieces of the investigation that they dangled in press conferences, etc. over the years).
I followed the case from that perspective, right up until I found out that he’d confessed 61 times or something. I decided not to look at another thing until the trial started. I was well aware of his imprisonment.

So far from the reports coming out of the trial, these are my problems with believing RA’s innocent (*and things I’m weighing it against if any) :

At this time, I am comfortable with accepting that RA -and the group of girls- described seeing one another.
I’m fine with the female witnesses seeing the manipulated still of BG, and confirming that was the man they had tried to describe, even if the details they tried to provide didn’t match one another’s description, much less describe RA, imo.

RA reports being on the bridge, dressed similarly enough to the BG. Apparently nothing is done by him or his confidants to have this picture removed from the investigation. When he’s asked whether it’s him in the picture, he doesn’t give a straight answer.
I heard/read here that some trial attendees (Murder Sheet, maybe?) heard KA telling RA, “You didn’t tell me you were on the bridge” while the investigators were out of the interrogation room. This tells me he was more honest with LE than he was with KA.

Next, he can’t produce his phone for the relevant time period. That is baffling to me, given his communication with LE about a double murder investigation! I can’t picture his wife or anyone close to him getting rid of it, knowing the same.

Then, he eventually changes the timeframe for his bridge visit. *I also do note that others changed details of their accounts over time, too. So on the one hand, if it’s understandable for other people’s memories to be not as clear, why can’t Richard Allen be just as human in that regard? BUT…

Then he goes and specifies box cutter and van. The box cutter confession is supported by the medical examiner’s late-breaking opinion that a box cutter could be consistent with the sharp instrument that was used. I don’t love the optics of the timing, but I guess I’m okay with his opinion that a box cutter would explain the reason that he initially opined that perhaps 2 blades were used, and he had never thought about a box cutter in his previous examination. Can’t remember if he testified to having seen box cutter wounds throughout his career.

The van? I liked it better before I learned of Wala’s fascination with, and excessive following of the case, before and during her treatment of RA. Did she tip him off to that rumor, inadvertently or otherwise, while telling him about his internet supporters in an effort to encourage him? Even if so, though, why does he decide to add that particular morsel to his confession? I’m open minded to hearing more from Weber, but as of right now I have no reason to disregard this confession made by RA.

By all accounts I have heard from reporters, and others who were in the gallery, the recorded call to his mother sounded sincere. I have to wonder if he ever confessed to his attorneys. It seems like his wife and mother were contacting them to let them know what RA was saying. As attorneys, I do not know if they have a legal obligation to handle that situation in one way or another, if a client confesses to them.

For now, I am thinking RA is the murderer. I hate feeling like the investigation into his involvement was still in fairly early stages when they arrested him, and nowhere near complete. I hate that they imprisoned him pretrial, and it seems like the “ongoing investigation” devolved into simply monitoring him in prison, and taking measures to prove his confessions, which were made under extreme duress -imo- even if they were the truth.

 

[katydid23]

Sure he could; that area is heavily wooded.
He disappeared quickly, according to the witness.
IMO

We have no reason to believe he was BG though---no description of him whatsoever

 

[Diddian]

Here are the three things Richard Allen confessed that only the murderer would know:

1) He was spooked by the white van while he tried to SA the girls
2) The girls had their throats cut
3) Their bodies were covered with sticks

GUILTY!

Also incriminating - contradictions between his 2022 and 2017 LE interviews and between those interviews and geofencing evidence:

• In the 2022 LE interview, RA changed the timing of his visit to MHB to EXCLUDE the timing of LG's and AW's visit there. In his 2017 interview, the timing of RA's visit coincided with the girls' visit, the timing of their disappearance, and with the timing of witnesses he encountered while there. It's like he thought that since he had for so long gotten away with the abduction and murders, he was entitled to change his claims to better suggest innocence given later known facts and to be believed.
• In his 2022 LE interview, waffling on the color of the Carhartt jacket he'd been wearing while at MHB that day. He said blue or black in the later interview, even though he stated he'd been wearing a blue jacket in the 2017 interview. (And as @BUF posted here recently, RA told LE that if he'd been wearing a cap, it would have been the skullcap he typically carried in his jacket pocket, which would indicate he kept a cap in a PARTICULAR jacket that had a PARTICULAR color - suggesting the 2017 claim of a particular color jacket is more credible.)
• In his 2017 interview with the conservation officer, RA makes a point of mentioning that he was checking the stock ticker on his phone; however, geofencing appears to contradict that statement because the mobile phone RA was using in 2017 doesn't turn up in geofencing reports and the phone itself is no longer in RA's possession (even though many other obsolete devices were). IMO, in his 2017 statement to the conservation officer, RA admitted to multiple facts that he felt he must admit because he believed he was seen by witnesses and/or photographed while there - facts such as what he was wearing while at MHB, when he was there, where he had parked, who he had encountered, and his claim to have been checking stocks on a phone screen (witnesses would only be able to state and a photograph would only be able to verify that he was seen checking a screen, but would not be able to say what was on the screen). (My suspicion: The phone screen he was viewing was not his regular mobile phone but was instead a phone he gained during his trip to Peru that morning. I suspect that acquiring that phone from the associate who gave it to him was the primary purpose of RA's trip to Peru that morning even if he also stopped to see his mother and I would be very curious whether vehicle data would seem to confirm that suspicion. I suspect - given how much LG had pushed for the ride to MHB that early afternoon AND that her visit there coincided with RA's visit - that LG was making SnapChat posts with the intention that they'd be seen on that phone she likely believed was held by someone else and RA was following those SnapChat posts with that phone and that is why he might have been seen by witnesses looking at a phone screen. All of this is purely my own suspicion, fueled by the belief that there was meaning behind every detail RA mentioned in his statement to LE in 2017 about his time at MHB on the afternoon LG and AW disappeared and were murdered.)

ETA: WHO modifies the statements they make to LE to better suggest innocence in relation to facts later discovered? People who have a reason to lie because the truth incriminates them.

 

[Arkay]

I’m screenshotting this from an earlier post. The last sentence is my focus.





This reporter in court did indeed say the public was allowed to see crime scene photos of Abby and Libby as they were found.
Which is nude and torn up.

I vociferously objected to that in an earlier post, but am confused now because I also saw some posts that said the TV was turned at that point to only face the jury.

It’s received a lot of comments so I just want to add this now.

Once again we are beholden to just getting dribs and drabs from court.

I still lodge a vehement objection if this turns out to be valid.

I see some posts here proclaiming that it’s a public trial and so the public should be allowed to see everything.

I know I can only have my own opinion, while others have theirs.

I don’t even care if there is legal standing for the public to see everything in a trial.

NO ONE, IN MY OPINION, SHOULD SEE ABBY AND LIBBY NAKED AND DEAD UNLESS THEY ARE FAMILY, JUDGE, JURY OR THE LAWYERS INVOLVED!

Just play that string out…YouTubers and podcasters who are not subject to the strict rules of actual journalism can broadcast that for clicks…and then how many perverts out there in the general public are going to relish seeing them that way????

Even upstanding people have NO BUSINESS seeing young teenaged girls in this condition.

Two of my grandchildren are girls. The thought is unbearable.

JMO

 

[gremlin444]

Boxcutter was unrealistic

murders committed with a box cutter:

Victim of alleged box-cutter killer fought back but died from severe cut to the neck

Amy Humphries, 28, of Orange City had 77 cuts and stab wounds but the injury that severed her windpipe is what killed her, a medical examiner said.

www.news-journalonline.com

"But of all the injuries, Ripple said that the large, deep cut that severed Humphries' windpipe, neck muscle, and veins, killed her."

Reports: Box cutter used to kill Mass. math teacher

Philip Chism, 14, is charged the killing Colleen Ritzer, at Danvers High School.

www.usatoday.com

"Chism told police he followed Ritzer into the women's restroom, punched her in the face and slashed her throat with a box cutter."

Document: 70-year-old man used box cutter to kill his brother

A 70-year-old man used a box cutter to kill his brother, according to court documents.J

kfoxtv.com

"According to court documents, the two brothers got into an argument and started hitting each other. During the fight, Alvino pulled out the box cutter and "began slashing at Alfredo's body causing an an incision to (Alfredo's) neck and jugular artery area."

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/elderly-killer-jean-ann-james-loses-bid-for-private-visits-with-unfaithful-husband-1.3198433

"James is serving a life sentence for nearly decapitating her friend, Gladys Wakabayashi, with a box cutter in June 1992"

And I've got pages more of results in my search, and reading the articles to get direct quotes is getting more and more unpleasant, so I'll leave it at that. I can provide more if needed, but after a break.

 

[photographer4]

AB said it didn't look handwritten alluding to the fact they didn't prepare it there in court.

Does not speak to being unprepared imo then. Ty.

 

[steeltowngirl]

I wonder how they'd manage variables? Stress? Weather conditions? Physical fitness or lack thereof? Terrain... visibility (to possible witnesses), the need to be quiet so as to not draw possible attention... could any determination on this be reliable? RA had a heart attack in his 30's per this link:

Delphi murder trial: Libby's blood was likely mixed with her tears, expert says

A pattern on the body of Delphi murder victim Libby German showed her blood was likely mixed with tears, an officer testified.

abc11.com

How likely is it that this guy traversed the terrain that has been described as difficult by the state when the D wanted to take the jury on a trip to the area? Imo? Not likely imo.

EDITED to include link re: P opposing jury trip: https://fox59.com/indiana-news/delp...efense-request-to-take-jurors-to-crime-scene/

SECOND LINK ADDED WITH QUOTE: ""The terrain where the bodies were found is very difficult to traverse and would be dangerous for the jury to get to," McLeland stated" - Prosecutor doesn't want Delphi murder suspect's jurors to see crime scenes in person

Of course RA could manage the terrain.
RL easily traversed into his 70s.

It’s not the Grand Canyon.

jmo

 

[Mitch1]

There are other facts only the killer knows , and RA knows them, which he has proven.

Can you specify what RA knows that only the killer does because it’s not the van

 

[photographer4]

We're not in the court room, but surely, if someone was telling them to go down the hill off camera, then the person on the bridge would have come forward to explain what they had seen? Or the girls would have called for help? Or tried to run back across the bridge to the friendly person following them. I understand the defence has to poke holes but it seems unreasonable that it was anyone other than bridge guy who ordered them down the hill?

A person who had been on the bridge that day did come forward and offer to help police - how has this worked out for RA? Mooo.

 

[gremlin444]

Anyone with discovery knew those details.

The van thing was being discussed very early on SM as well, and D has already stated it was in discovery hundreds of times.

And on redirect, it was clarified that it was just the word "van" that appeared hundreds of times in the discovery--in the listing of ALL the tips that were collected. Not mentions about Brad Weber's white van. But in the collection of every single tip that ever came in about vans on other roads, vans of all colors, etc.

 

[Tricia]

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