Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #209

[minor4th]

I’m ignorant- how is it not hearsay when offered by the P? Like the audio confessions? I don’t understand- IANAL

Prosecution can submit a defendant’s own statements against him. It’s an exception to hearsay. But the defense can’t submit the defendant’s statements because that’s just bolstering.

 

[m00c0w]

I’m ignorant- how is it not hearsay when offered by the P? Like the audio confessions? I don’t understand- IANAL

Prosecution can use a hearsay exception because they can’t compel RA to testify against himself. Defense can’t use that exception as a way to admit testimony from their client without opening him up to cross examination.

JMO

 

[Deleted member 296739]

Prosecution can submit a defendant’s own statements against him. It’s an exception to hearsay. But the defense can’t submit the defendant’s statements because that’s just bolstering.

Thanks for the clarification!

 

[tlcya]

Sounds like someone was searching for the subject of a movie but couldn't recall the name of it. JMO from experience.

agree. I don't find his searches particularly noteworthy. JMO

 

[Deleted member 296739]

The videos were only labeled with months.

#UPDATE: Doesn’t appear any videos will be shown today. The defense says they can’t say for sure when the videos are from because they only got them in folders labeled with months in the discovery. Judge Gull said if they can’t verify that she won’t let them in.

12:15 PM · Nov 1, 2024

x.com

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Another dumb question- how would the D be able to date the videos with out the P giving them that info? If the P withholds that info thereby making them inadmissible how is that fair? I think I must be missing something important-

 

[steeltowngirl]

Random observation: Must be a slow day in court. I keep checking WISH-TV for updates. There’s more Swiftie news than anything else!

jmo

 

[photographer4]

Was Richard Allen thinking that he could claim that he was kidnapped by Libby and Abby, and that he killed them in self-defence?

"On Oct. 2, 2022, less than two weeks before he was initially questioned in the case, Allen searched for the “65+ best kidnapping and hostage movies ever made.” Other searches from the same day included “man held hostage by teen” and “movie about a man being held against his will.”

https://www.newsnationnow.com/crime/delphi-richard-allen-google-search/?utm_campaign=socialflow&utm_source=t.co&utm_medium=referral

Doubtful imo. There have been many movies with this general plot where a teen holds a man (or a family even) hostage. Could be a simple as he was trying to recall the name of a movie he had previously seen or heard about. I googled the plot as a search term and many titles and plots popped up. So really, imo, the State is speculating that it’s nefarious and a sign of guilt without actually backing it up with evidence. I am aware we don’t all agree on what is evidence or not in this case and that’s fine too. Moo.

 

[fred&edna]

Another dumb question- how would the D be able to date the videos with out the P giving them that info? If the P withholds that info thereby making them inadmissible how is that fair? I think I must be missing something important-

I'm not sure the prosecution withheld the info. Apparently, the dates weren't listed on the folders and the defense didn't ask prosecution for exactness. And, apparently preciseness counts when attempting to admit evidence. Obviously, total guess/opinion on my part, though. ETA: I don't think any questions related to the legal process are dumb.... far from it!

 

[BUF]

https://fox59.com/delphi-trial/delphi-murders-allens-mental-health-at-center-of-day-13/

Much of Friday’s proceedings have been taken up by the prosecution’s objections and multiple sidebars involving counsel and the judge. Media pool notes indicated there were only about 73 minutes of morning testimony due to sidebars and breaks.

 

[m00c0w]

I doubt that is what happened. More likely Gootee said something different when the defense spoke with him, but suddenly “can’t remember” what Weber said.

The timing of the defense’s motion to have the agent appear by video conference makes me think what tlcya said is exactly what happened (the general premise). They were going to use him, but he became unavailable so thought they would just have Gootee testify. Problem is it looks like he didn’t write the 302, so he can’t even use that as a basis for his own recollection.

If there is evidence they previously deposed him (I can’t see them just talking to a potentially adversarial witness) and his story changed, I’d have expected that to be brought up and the deposition admitted for impeachment versus shock and moving on.

JMO

 

[katydid23]

Maybe this applies?

Hearsay: If there is no witness present who can be cross-examined, an attorney can argue that the substance of the photo or video evidence is hearsay.

So maybe the P is trying to force the defendant to testify?

 

[Tortoise]

does anyone know how BG managed to leave no DNA on the victims? wore gloves that were discarded? their clothing if he touched it burned?

“DNA is not always detectable, meaning that it is possible to have someone touch an object but not leave behind detectable DNA because … some people leave more of their skin cells behind than others, i.e., some people are better ‘shedders’ of their DNA than others. There are also other factors that affect the amount of DNA left on an object, such as the length of contact, the roughness or smoothness of the surface, the type of contact, the existence or nonexistence of fluids, such as sweat, and degradation on the object.”

DNA--is touch or transfer DNA reliable evidence of guilt — Court-Martial Trial Practice Blog — May 9, 2022

 

[fred&edna]

So maybe the P is trying to force the defendant to testify?

They could be. But I doubt it. They know it's VERY unlikely to happen but they also know that IF the defense wanted their evidence readily admitted they would have to agree to allow him to take the stand. jmo

 

[m00c0w]

Another dumb question- how would the D be able to date the videos with out the P giving them that info? If the P withholds that info thereby making them inadmissible how is that fair? I think I must be missing something important-

The prosecution probably turned over all sorts of inadmissible stuff in discovery. If the prosecution was never going to use it at trial, it doesn’t have to be admissible. It’s also not the prosecution’s job to go and ensure the admissibility of the defense’s evidence. If the defense wanted admissible video, they should have gotten such directly from IDOC with appropriate validations as to the accuracy and context of the video.

JMO

 

[arielilane]

@JoScottForensic

Check out this podcast! Death of Innocence: The Murders of Abby, 13 and Libby, 14 on Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan …

https://iheart.com/podcast/1119-body-bags-with-joseph-sco-87375583/episode/death-of-innocence-the-murders-of-abby-13-and-libby-14-233364260/?cmp=android_share&sc=android_social_share&pr=false

 

[steeltowngirl]

Thanks for the correction.

Welcome. It has been a source of confusion and Heavy really should have corrected it by now.

 

[katydid23]

does anyone know how BG managed to leave no DNA on the victims? wore gloves that were discarded? their clothing if he touched it burned?

The crimes happened outside in the elements/>>>wind, water, time elapsed overnight, no surfaces for fingerprints, etc.

Most of the DNA in crimes inside homes or vehicles are found on victims bodies or on doorknobs, or sinks, or cups or utensils, etc. Hard surfaces that hold the DNA to be discovered later.

The problem with this case is there was no regular type of SA, and no hard protected surfaces to hold DNA or show fingerprints or touch DNA. Then you have the outdoor elements that destroy what little touch DNA would have been left.

 

[MassGuy]

The videos will not be shown today. The defense says they can’t say for sure when the videos are from because they only got them in folders labeled with months in the discovery. Judge Gull said if they can’t verify that she won’t let them in.

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[arielilane]

Is that a relative of RA in front of the small cornfield? TIA

 

[Megnut]

The crimes happened outside in the elements/>>>wind, water, time elapsed overnight, no surfaces for fingerprints, etc.

Most of the DNA in crimes inside homes or vehicles are found on victims bodies or on doorknobs, or sinks, or cups or utensils, etc. Hard surfaces that hold the DNA to be discovered later.

The problem with this case is there was no regular type of SA, and no hard protected surfaces to hold DNA or show fingerprints or touch DNA. Then you have the outdoor elements that destroy what little touch DNA wood have been left.

And they were forced across a very muddy creek.

Good way to eliminate DNA...

JMO