Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #209

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Bob Segall

@BobSegallWTHR
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12. Jurors continue to be engaged & ask great questions. My favorite of the day was a question that led the DOC mental health expert to explain to jurors how to tell when an inmate has a real mental illness & when they are faking it—something these jurors will be asked to decide.
 
Snipping your excellent post because I think it is under appreciated that even if Judge Gull allowed "odinism' (whatever that is) - Inadmissible stuff is not coming in.

It is my suspicion this was always a hoax concocted by Baldwin. he got caught out by the MW leaks, but then ironically, that really helped with the idea this was all some vast conspiracy rather than a bad decision made by an understandably angry and shocked judge.

Franks hinges on 3 pieces of evidence that the D failed to produce at the hearing - indeed we discovered they'd misrepresented (i prefer lied) about it.

Prof Turco - to establish paganist staging - not produced
FBI BAU - to validate - not produced
"hearsay" - confession - witnesses not produced

So then all you have was two LEOs saying they had no evidence but a hunch

Baldwin knew all this since summer '23 - that's why he misled everyone in the Franks. If he had this evidence, he didn't neeed to engage in so many misrepresentations and wild speculations in the first place. He would have just called FBI BAU expert at the trial and torpedoed the State case.

We've been had.

MOO
I definitely agree, this strategy of mental manipulation against Prosecution immediately reminds me of the dreaded annual match up between Georgia and Alabama, both teams are usually even matched in their skills and physical strength but it’s the mental strength that Georgia struggles to overcome in shutting out the negative online influences, end results likely not to be the same disappointing defeat as my Dawgs experienced with the loss to Alabama. Having the insight and knowledge of the Defense trickery enables Prosecution to fight back against the misleading manipulation, which is exactly what occurred when Georgia walked into the Texas stadium with confidence of steel after weeks of taunting and harassment by Texas fans, Texas couldn’t match Georgia’s strategy for mental strength, Texas claimed to have top Defense going into game, the Texas Defense strategy of misleading its opponents was transparent to Georgia allowing them to hold strong against a physically weak Texas Defense, efforts of further manipulation failed causing Texas fan base to literally loose muscle control in their arms- reports of water bottles being hurled onto the field.
 
Random observation: Must be a slow day in court. I keep checking WISH-TV for updates. There’s more Swiftie news than anything else!

jmo
Yes, it just goes to show the whole world and universe are not focused on RA and the Delphi trial. It really isn't well known topic of discussion outside of the state and local followings, true crime forums or dedicated True Crime TV, and by some of the internet cranks on SM.

I've said before nobody in my immediate family and social circles knows squat about RA or Delphi. Ask your Mother, Spouse, Friend or Neighbor, they likely will not know much, if anything, about it either.

We've been following for years so it's paramount to us, the rest of the world, meh, not so much. There's more crime stories, political news and other things the gen pop are focused on.

#Justice4Abby&Libby

MOO
 
The prosecution probably turned over all sorts of inadmissible stuff in discovery. If the prosecution was never going to use it at trial, it doesn’t have to be admissible. It’s also not the prosecution’s job to go and ensure the admissibility of the defense’s evidence. If the defense wanted admissible video, they should have gotten such directly from IDOC with appropriate validations as to the accuracy and context of the video.

JMO
The Defense was too busy crafting that Legal Masterpiece (according to R&B) of a Franks Memos. Don't you know how time consuming it is to write fan fiction and satanic panic and try to spin it with some amount of legitimacy to it?

And don't forget those all important footnotes, that say basically we're assuming, we may not have it/or read it, etc. I vote that the footnotes alone in the First Franks Memo be its own 'how NOT to' document.

It reminds me of AB searching the internet trying to find an Odin Specialist in April of this year, hah. I think they were way behind the eight ball and still are.

MOO
 
There must be a reason they've pursued the odinism thing? It makes absolutely no sense to me. But I'm not a defence lawyer.
They only need to prove RA wasn't on the trails at the time LE says he was don't they?

Another thing that does concern regardless of who is identified as BG is that there's no evidence linking him to the knife in his hand. The only thing we can really say he did with any conviction is to lead two girls down a hill.
If BG forced the girls off the bridge, and someone else killed them, BG would still be charged was well. Kidnapping someone and leading them to their killer is a crime. IMO
 
I'll use your post as a jumping-off point to discuss the defense's own motion to admit third party culpability <modsnip>... Defense motion is attached.

Pages 1-3 are relatively boilerplate statements about RA's rights to admit evidence of third party culpability. There are some assertions, but they aren't substantive. They claim RA has produced evidence, but the specifics of this evidence is not produced here.

Pages 4-7 are predominately about the testimony of Perlmutter and how she has connected various elements to Odinism. There are no specific claims about responsible third parties here, and the only evidence presented is Perlmutter's testimony.

Page 8-9, they talk about police not adequately following up on leads. On Page 9, their assertion is "Something happened at 4:33 a.m. on February 14, 2017 that caused [LG]'s cell phone to suddenly connect to the cell phone tower and it is logical to believe that whatever caused the phone to connect was the result of actions taken by third party suspects". That is vague, speculative, and does not directly tie any subjects back to the crime.

On page 10, they start going into precedent regarding third party culpability:

To be admissible in criminal prosecution, evidence that a third party has committed the crime with which the defendant is charged need not show substantial proof of a probability that the third person has committed the act; it need only be capable of raising a reasonable doubt of the defendant's guilt... While a criminal defendant may present alternative perpetrator evidence at trial in order to cast doubt on the defendant's guilt, the defendant must first lay an evidentiary foundation to establish that the alternative perpetrator evidence has an inherent tendency to connect the alternative perpetrator to the actual commission of the charged crime.

Emphasis mine. There can't be some vague links to the general theory of the crime. The third party perpetrators must be connected to the actual commission of the charged crime.

Allen v State - Allen v. State, 813 N.E.2d 349 | Casetext Search + Citator
The defense wanted to admit witness testimony that included a witness that saw the third party case the establishment with them prior to the crime (while talking about robbing the place), and immediately after the crime came and admitted they committed a robbery and killed several people in the process. They were only a couple of blocks from the store and were coming from the direction of the store. They stated the weapon they had with them was "dirty" and they needed to get rid of it. The witness had provided additional testimony regarding other crimes that was corroborated and deemed valid. The confession testimony was originally permitted under a hearsay exception after a hearing, but the witness then refused to testify, fearing for his own safety. The court then refused to admit the prior testimony of the witness. This was a clear error, because the third party had clear links to the actual commission of the crime. This is a patently different set of circumstances because there is specific witness testimony from a proven-credible witness tying a specific person to the specific crime, in the location the crime occurred, with knowledge only the perpetrator would have been able to share.

Joyner v State -
Joyner v. State, 678 N.E.2d 386 | Casetext Search + Citator
The defense leaves out that the third party in this case left hair on the murder instrument that tied them to the murder via DNA analysis.

Rohr v State - Rohr v. State, 866 N.E.2d 242 | Casetext Search + Citator
The defense completely misstates the conclusions in this case - it's not about third party culpability, but whether it was proper to exclude witnesses due to a lack of timely disclosure. The witnesses that were ultimately admitted would testify to the fact that they had witnessed the mother beating the victim, that died from beating, in the past. The defense has not disclosed any past bad acts that I'm aware of regarding the Odinists having killed other girls in ritual sacrifices.

Kucki v State - Kucki v. State, 483 N.E.2d 788 | Casetext Search + Citator
The entire relevant portion of this ruling is about mistaken identity - courts are more lenient about admitting evidence of third party culpability if there is evidence that the third party bears a "striking physical similarity" to the accused. I'm not aware of any claims of RA doppelgangers running around.

That is the substance of their cited legal precedents for admission of evidence of third party culpability.

From Pages 11-26, they go into specifics about each individual and why they're possibly relevant third parties. Since they have been officially excluded as suspects in the trial so far, I'm not going to discuss them specifically or at length to keep in line with the TOS. However, the general formula is:

- Their alibi is invalid if we move the timeframe of the murders with little factual basis
- They made weird statements to police if taken out of context
- They practice Odinism
- Double hearsay from an unreliable witness says someone committed the murders
- A white pickup truck was in Delphi

That's about it as far as substance. Nothing nearly as compelling as any of the evidence in the cases they cited, no matter how many pages it took them to describe the "evidence".

Just my opinion, of course.
thank you for this post - very helpful

jmo
 
I wish I could find any clarification as to whether the Haldol injections he was given were the immediate action kind or the ones that last 3-4 weeks. Because if he was given the immediate action kind, that can also be given in psychiatric institutions and penal institutions when someone is exhibiting sustained or numerous (and separated only by short periods of time, like every few hours) incidents of violence and aggression.
RA's mental health timeline from the link
[snip]
March 23, 2023: Allen was depressed and withdrawn and said he “was not straight in the head."
April 4, 2023: Allen suffered from insomnia, hopelessness, was suicidal, and stated “death would bring relief to him."
April 13, 2023: Allen was exhibiting “bizarre” behavior, including consuming his own feces, and was suffering from a “grave disability.” The prison psychologist ordered Allen receive an involuntary injection of psychotropic medication.
April 21, 2023: Allen’s thoughts were disjointed and he was saying “strange things.” Wala discussed that he might be considered incompetent to stand trial.
May 3, 2023: Allen said he wanted to confess details of the crime.
May 18, 2023: Allen receives another dose of psychotropic medication.
May 23, 2023: Allen diagnosed as suffering from stress-induced psychosis.
June 8, 2023: Allen’s depression “at its peak,” noted trembling, knees buckling.
June 16, 2023: Allen receives another dose of psychotropic medication.
Late June, 2023: Allen’s mental health improving.
October 2023: Allen was proclaiming his innocence.
****************
Then there is this; so who knows what they did? Voluntary or Involuntary?
[snip]
Prosecutors said that they had considered “involuntary medication” to treat Allen’s symptoms, but two psychiatrists and a psychologist had allegedly deemed it unnecessary, and they also felt it wasn’t necessary to move him to another facility with a psychiatric unit.
 
RA's mental health timeline from the link
[snip]
March 23, 2023: Allen was depressed and withdrawn and said he “was not straight in the head."
April 4, 2023: Allen suffered from insomnia, hopelessness, was suicidal, and stated “death would bring relief to him."
April 13, 2023: Allen was exhibiting “bizarre” behavior, including consuming his own feces, and was suffering from a “grave disability.” The prison psychologist ordered Allen receive an involuntary injection of psychotropic medication.
April 21, 2023: Allen’s thoughts were disjointed and he was saying “strange things.” Wala discussed that he might be considered incompetent to stand trial.
May 3, 2023: Allen said he wanted to confess details of the crime.
May 18, 2023: Allen receives another dose of psychotropic medication.
May 23, 2023: Allen diagnosed as suffering from stress-induced psychosis.
June 8, 2023: Allen’s depression “at its peak,” noted trembling, knees buckling.
June 16, 2023: Allen receives another dose of psychotropic medication.
Late June, 2023: Allen’s mental health improving.
October 2023: Allen was proclaiming his innocence.
****************
Then there is this; so who knows what they did? Voluntary or Involuntary?
[snip]
Prosecutors said that they had considered “involuntary medication” to treat Allen’s symptoms, but two psychiatrists and a psychologist had allegedly deemed it unnecessary, and they also felt it wasn’t necessary to move him to another facility with a psychiatric unit.
Do you know what this timeline says to me? It says that RA was having horrible sense of regret and guilt. His guilty conscience was out of control and he couldn't ignore those feelings any longer.

The only thing bringing him relief was spiritual rebirth and then finally confessing his sins. IMO
 
Did they bring that evidence to the hearing?

It’s hard for the Judge to allow it in if you don’t front!
How would we know? The judge didn’t allow the hearing to be recorded or streamed. And Judge Gull’s order was so vague and without any reference to law, it gives no meaningful information. That’s the problem with a complete lack of transparency. From media reports, it sounds like they did bring evidence of 3rd party suspects, and some psych testimony, and a cult expert but it’s impossible to glean exactly what evidence was presented.

Someone said they read a transcript of the 3-day hearing. Does anyone know where that can be found?
 
Do you know what this timeline says to me? It says that RA was having horrible sense of regret and guilt. His guilty conscience was out of control and he couldn't ignore those feelings any longer.

The only thing bringing him relief was spiritual rebirth and then finally confessing his sins. IMO
I disagree about his motives to confess. I think he wanted relief from everything, but only because it was a burden on him to deal with it.

He read the writing on the wall that his life now was behind bars, and he just wanted to move on with it rather than deal with all the trial procedures that proved his guilt, imo.

And he was adrift without his wife and mom so he was trying to get them to accept his confession so he wouldn't have to face that ongoing issue anymore and just get them to say they still loved him, imo. The confessions were for his own comfort, imo.

I think he was trying to AVOID what he did and didn't feel an ounce of guilt.

my opinion only
 
Franks hinges on 3 pieces of evidence that the D failed to produce at the hearing - indeed we discovered they'd misrepresented (i prefer lied) about it.

Prof Turco - to establish paganist staging - not produced
FBI BAU - to validate - not produced
"hearsay" - confession - witnesses not produced

So then all you have was two LEOs saying they had no evidence but a hunch
Snipped and bolded:

And, didn't one of those LEOs just get arrested for falsifying reports in a different case? Probably best for the D not to pull too hard on that thread either.
 
All police officers do, and many people who carry guns for protection do as well. If you have a split second to act, you don't want to have to rack the gun in order to be able to fire.

We haven't heard the audio obviously, but even if we had, it sounds like it's open to interpretation. People in the courtroom have said they thought they heard a slide being racked around the "down the hill" timeframe, but others heard no such thing.

Personally, I don't believe he did rack the slide there. At that point the threat of a gun would be enough, and racking it for intimidation would have been unnecessary. When he did ultimately rack the gun at the murder scene, I believe it's probable that the girls weren't complying with a demand, perhaps an order to undress or something.

From the sound alone it isn't possible to tell if the gun already has a round in the chamber, unless you're able to hear that cartridge hit the ground. That almost certainly would not be the case here, considering the sound of the gun being racked is in dispute.
I do think there is a chance he did rack the slide because in the audio that was released from early on there is a clear break from the Guys and then the down the hill. It's been speculated that either they edited out one of the girls talking or maybe screaming.. Now we know possibly Abby said hi or he racked the slide.. it would make sense it was during that spot that is between guys and down the hill. They edited something out right there.

IMO
 
Well Harshman said he was the phone guy and since he listened to enough phone calls he knows that it is RA’s voice because I guess he’s an expert on that, and the judge allowed it. Mind you there are many people in RA’s life who have listened and talked to RA much more than Harshman and none of them have said it was his voice on the Snapchat video.

And now it seems RA can’t even present a defense that isn’t necessarily a contradiction to state witnesses

This whole thing is gross even if he is, and I do think he’s guilty, MOO
What is gross to me is how RA left Abby & Libby broken and bleeding out from having their necks slashed. RA having taken away 2 innocent young girls who never got to really even begin to enjoy their teen life for some sick perversion.

The pain and agony the families of these young girls have suffered daily and been harassed and innuendoed from the start from all directions, especially the Internet cranks. That is beyond gross to me.

RA is especially gross to me because he's a little, evil man who committed these atrocious crimes and has played the con game for years going about his own life IMO. Lucky for him he had enablers around him that allowed him to do just that.

Lest I forget, what is gross also is this Defense Team who have acted and committed the most unprofessional conduct and unethical representation of any Defense Attorneys I've ever seen. R&B are gross IMO.

#Justice4Abby&Libby

As always, JMO
 
Wasnt there initially speculation that it had been taken on a trail cam? No one knew it was from Libby's phone.
So I do think your theory fits. It's just a massive shame it wasn't followed up immediately.
Yes

Feb 22, 2017 - WTHR reported:
The photo investigators have been circulating of a suspect on the Monon High Bridge was also found on Libby's phone. Police used a Wednesday press conference to dispel rumors that the photo had been taken from a trail camera.

 
I have not been able to find a single case where an unspent cartridge was used as a main piece of evidence in a murder trial. But an unspent vs spent cartridge would definitely be different. From my understanding, ballistics generally only uses spent cartridges.
That isn't the only or even the main piece of evidence. RA saying he is BG at the time and in the clothes and then repeatedly confessing to the crimes in detail are the main pieces of evidence against him.

MOO
 
I disagree about his motives to confess. I think he wanted relief from everything, but only because it was a burden on him to deal with it.

He read the writing on the wall that his life now was behind bars, and he just wanted to move on with it rather than deal with all the trial procedures that proved his guilt, imo.

And he was adrift without his wife and mom so he was trying to get them to accept his confession so he wouldn't have to face that ongoing issue anymore and just get them to say they still loved him, imo. The confessions were for his own comfort, imo.

I think he was trying to AVOID what he did and didn't feel an ounce of guilt.

my opinion only
I agree. I think he wanted to know that his mother and wife would still support him when he was sent to prison for life if he confessed and pleaded guilty.
From their response ,perhaps he made the decision to appear mentally ill in the hope he would be sent to hospital and avoid a trial.
I think his mother and wife would have much preferred to be able to say he was innocent but unable to defend himself because of the state of his mental health.
 
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