Abby & Libby - The Delphi Murders - Richard Allen Arrested - #209

[MassGuy]

Exactly. I couldn’t believe it wasn’t SOMEBODY from that catfishing ring.

I think a lot of people got married to the idea it was him, and just couldn’t let it go.

 

[INfisherman]

I think a lot of people got married to the idea it was him, and just couldn’t let it go.

i think it would be fair to say that might apply to quite a few different things concerning this case.

 

[Davemac1]

True. She saw a man who might be Richard Allen on the bridge at the same time that Richard Allen said he was on the bridge looking at a fish. She thought he was on the first platform, he was vague.

She turned around and walked to her car. We don't know whether the man on the bridge followed her. We do know that as she was walking to her car, she saw Libby and Abby walking towards the bridge. Bridge guy and the girls were between her and bridge. The girls were on the South end of the Monon bridge when a man, moving with purpose, was right behind Abby.

I think eye witness testimony that corresponds with Richard Allen's testimony is more important than trail descriptions. The witness places the girls on the bridge trail at the same time as the man she saw on the bridge. RA admitted that he was there, looking at stock market reports and fish.

One witness connects Richard Allen to the bridge near the time that the girls are on the bridge. Other witnesses might have seen Richard Allen on the trails in the form of bridge guy until the 3:57 muddy bloody sighting.

His wife is not a witness, but I would like to hear what happened when he arrived home that day. He must have been covered with blood, from head to toe. Libby put up a good fight.

Why is that? Was she ever interviewed on her own does anyone know?
Find it a bit strange that a woman who lives with a prime suspect is not questioned to give some insight.

 

[MassGuy]

Why is that? Was she ever interviewed on her own does anyone know?
Find it a bit strange that a woman who lives with a prime suspect is not questioned to give some insight.

She was interviewed, but we have very few details on what she said. We did hear something to the effect of his mental health declining following the murders though. His daughter was interviewed as well, but we've heard absolutely nothing about what she said.

 

[StarryStarryNight]

LE are making this a lot harder than it should be with their shoddy record taking and filing. Officer Dan Dulin being a prime example with his failure to press Allen on what he was wearing and other details in his 5 minute parking lot interview!

I am now thinking Allen originally came forward to LE to tell them that he was the guy in the picture and I'll explain why.
Remember, the first time the picture of BG was released it was just a still shot and not a video The source of it had not been declared. He wasn't even officially known as BG then. LE just said they wanted to speak to the person as he was on the trails ( note, not bridge) at around the time Abby and Libby were there.
It was released on Feb 15th at 18:50 and low and behold, the very next day Allen informs LE he was there.
We don't know who took that original message(shock,horror!) but Dulin followed it up a few days later.
Now I'm pretty sure the killer/ Allen didn't think Abby and Libby had a device that produced that picture. The device would have been confiscated the moment he found it. But he didn't. Libby must have kept it well concealed when she shot the video. Hence why Law enforcement managed to find the phone but the girls murderer didn't.
I believe Allen thought the group of girls including Breann Wilber took the picture when he approached them on his way to the monan bridge. One of them even said in their testimony that they were on the trails to hike and TAKE PICTURES! He probably saw them with their phones out when he walked passed.
Now he had a big problem but I guess he figured they took the photo on the trail and not the bridge. Plus his wife probably said that "looks awfully like you dear" when she saw it. "It was probably taken by the three girls I saw when I was down there. Ill speak to LE in the morning and clear this up."
Notice in his statement he only mentions seeing the 3 girls!
But shortly after LE released this fantastic bit of incriminating evidence, Officer Dulin <modsnip>, fails to ask a lead suspect what he was wearing when he was there or more importantly if he was the guy in the photo!!

I’m pretty sure this was the first photo LE released of BG. If it’s not it’s pretty much identical to it.
BG is clearly on the bridge. Not sure how that affects your scenario.

 

[Rosegold68]

Seeing that photo again …. I definitely see RA now. And a gun shape in right pocket

Just stands out to me

 

[snooptroop88]

Not exactly… the judge decided that certain evidence wasn’t probative in value or had a tendency to confuse the issues that outweighed the relevance of the evidence. Given that the evidence was hardly relevant to begin with, it’s not a high bar to show its probability to confuse should result in its inadmissibility.

And judges are exactly the people that make this decision, every single day. And in general, SCOTUS has upheld the ability of a trial court to limit witnesses, especially when it comes to third party culpability.

The precedent is literally so against the defense’s current position that they had to misrepresent case law when trying to get the original motion in limine denied. Indiana consistently requires a material connection to the crime, and the defense has not been able to pass this relatively high bar. Every case the defense cited had an element this defense does not, which linked the third party back to the crime in a real way.

If you carefully parse the defense’s repeated motions, you’ll find that there is not much of substance. It’s a lot of speculation, accusations, conflating facts and misrepresenting evidence. They cannot connect any of their people of interest to the crimes, or they would have. They would have more than “he was possibly in a truck on one of these days and there was a truck seen in Delphi”, or “he had photos on Facebook of Odinist stuff”, or “if we move the crime 13 hours into the future with no rational basis, we can eliminate alibis”.

If I was RA, I would be afraid and I would be angry that they spent so much time, money, and effort trying to plug a sinking ship instead of bailing out to a new ship when they had the chance. I think RA is absolutely getting hosed here, but not by the state.

JMO

Completely agreed on this. The D produced a 136-page document that read like a novella and did not take their "plot" any further than LE already had, proving there was a reason why LE let these people named in this document go free, jmo, but proving little else. Despite that, though, the value the Odinite argument might have held for the D was to raise the fearful spectacle of a cult murder, intrigue the jurors with that premise, and then completely confuse the jurors with a tangle of suppositions that we already knew in the end went nowhere in terms of substance or fact.

Allowing pursuit of Odinites would have turned Richard Allen's trial into a trial of phantom cult defendants that almost certainly don't exist. MOO, it would have served their client better if the D had fulfilled their obligation to their client and refuted the evidence against their client piece by piece to the extent possible, ruling him out as BG before attempting to so aggressively pursue SODDI. Such an approach would definitely have been possible if LE in this case were as incompetent as the D claims.

I am not asking the D to "prove" RA didn't do it. But I am asking the D to address the evidence that has packed together to form a mountain against their own client. The Odinites didn't put it there. The Odinites also didn't change RA's original timeline on that fateful day. Most people would have more accuracy on the timeframe five days after the event versus five years after the event.

 

[m00c0w]

Completely agreed on this. The D produced a 136-page document that read like a novella and did not take their "plot" any further than LE already had, proving there was a reason why LE let these people named in this document go free, jmo, but proving little else. Despite that, though, the value the Odinite argument might have held for the D was to raise the fearful spectacle of a cult murder, intrigue the jurors with that premise, and then completely confuse the jurors with a tangle of suppositions that we already knew in the end went nowhere in terms of substance or fact.

Allowing pursuit of Odinites would have turned Richard Allen's trial into a trial of phantom cult defendants that almost certainly don't exist. MOO, it would have served their client better if the D had fulfilled their obligation to their client and refuted the evidence against their client piece by piece to the extent possible, ruling him out as BG before attempting to so aggressively pursue SODDI. Such an approach would definitely have been possible if LE in this case were as incompetent as the D claims.

I am not asking the D to "prove" RA didn't do it. But I am asking the D to address the evidence that has packed together to form a mountain against their own client. The Odinites didn't put it there. The Odinites also didn't change RA's original timeline on that fateful day. Most people would have more accuracy on the timeframe five days after the event versus five years after the event.

I'll use your post as a jumping-off point to discuss the defense's own motion to admit third party culpability <modsnip>... Defense motion is attached.

Pages 1-3 are relatively boilerplate statements about RA's rights to admit evidence of third party culpability. There are some assertions, but they aren't substantive. They claim RA has produced evidence, but the specifics of this evidence is not produced here.

Pages 4-7 are predominately about the testimony of Perlmutter and how she has connected various elements to Odinism. There are no specific claims about responsible third parties here, and the only evidence presented is Perlmutter's testimony.

Page 8-9, they talk about police not adequately following up on leads. On Page 9, their assertion is "Something happened at 4:33 a.m. on February 14, 2017 that caused [LG]'s cell phone to suddenly connect to the cell phone tower and it is logical to believe that whatever caused the phone to connect was the result of actions taken by third party suspects". That is vague, speculative, and does not directly tie any subjects back to the crime.

On page 10, they start going into precedent regarding third party culpability:

To be admissible in criminal prosecution, evidence that a third party has committed the crime with which the defendant is charged need not show substantial proof of a probability that the third person has committed the act; it need only be capable of raising a reasonable doubt of the defendant's guilt... While a criminal defendant may present alternative perpetrator evidence at trial in order to cast doubt on the defendant's guilt, the defendant must first lay an evidentiary foundation to establish that the alternative perpetrator evidence has an inherent tendency to connect the alternative perpetrator to the actual commission of the charged crime.

Emphasis mine. There can't be some vague links to the general theory of the crime. The third party perpetrators must be connected to the actual commission of the charged crime.

Allen v State - Allen v. State, 813 N.E.2d 349 | Casetext Search + Citator
The defense wanted to admit witness testimony that included a witness that saw the third party case the establishment with them prior to the crime (while talking about robbing the place), and immediately after the crime came and admitted they committed a robbery and killed several people in the process. They were only a couple of blocks from the store and were coming from the direction of the store. They stated the weapon they had with them was "dirty" and they needed to get rid of it. The witness had provided additional testimony regarding other crimes that was corroborated and deemed valid. The confession testimony was originally permitted under a hearsay exception after a hearing, but the witness then refused to testify, fearing for his own safety. The court then refused to admit the prior testimony of the witness. This was a clear error, because the third party had clear links to the actual commission of the crime. This is a patently different set of circumstances because there is specific witness testimony from a proven-credible witness tying a specific person to the specific crime, in the location the crime occurred, with knowledge only the perpetrator would have been able to share.

Joyner v State - Joyner v. State, 678 N.E.2d 386 | Casetext Search + Citator
The defense leaves out that the third party in this case left hair on the murder instrument that tied them to the murder via DNA analysis.

Rohr v State - Rohr v. State, 866 N.E.2d 242 | Casetext Search + Citator
The defense completely misstates the conclusions in this case - it's not about third party culpability, but whether it was proper to exclude witnesses due to a lack of timely disclosure. The witnesses that were ultimately admitted would testify to the fact that they had witnessed the mother beating the victim, that died from beating, in the past. The defense has not disclosed any past bad acts that I'm aware of regarding the Odinists having killed other girls in ritual sacrifices.

Kucki v State - Kucki v. State, 483 N.E.2d 788 | Casetext Search + Citator
The entire relevant portion of this ruling is about mistaken identity - courts are more lenient about admitting evidence of third party culpability if there is evidence that the third party bears a "striking physical similarity" to the accused. I'm not aware of any claims of RA doppelgangers running around.

That is the substance of their cited legal precedents for admission of evidence of third party culpability.

From Pages 11-26, they go into specifics about each individual and why they're possibly relevant third parties. Since they have been officially excluded as suspects in the trial so far, I'm not going to discuss them specifically or at length to keep in line with the TOS. However, the general formula is:

- Their alibi is invalid if we move the timeframe of the murders with little factual basis
- They made weird statements to police if taken out of context
- They practice Odinism
- Double hearsay from an unreliable witness says someone committed the murders
- A white pickup truck was in Delphi

That's about it as far as substance. Nothing nearly as compelling as any of the evidence in the cases they cited, no matter how many pages it took them to describe the "evidence".

Just my opinion, of course.

 

[Davemac1]

There must be a reason they've pursued the odinism thing? It makes absolutely no sense to me. But I'm not a defence lawyer.
They only need to prove RA wasn't on the trails at the time LE says he was don't they?

Another thing that does concern regardless of who is identified as BG is that there's no evidence linking him to the knife in his hand. The only thing we can really say he did with any conviction is to lead two girls down a hill.

 

[IzzyBlanche]

There must be a reason they've pursued the odinism thing? It makes absolutely no sense to me. But I'm not a defence lawyer.
They only need to prove RA wasn't on the trails at the time LE says he was don't they?

Another thing that does concern regardless of who is identified as BG is that there's no evidence linking him to the knife in his hand. The only thing we can really say he did with any conviction is to lead two girls down a hill.

Respectfully, what knife?

 

[Davemac1]

Respectfully, what knife?

The one used to butcher the victims.
Sorry. Should've phrased that better. The person who went on to use a knife/ sharp implement to kill the girls

 

[IzzyBlanche]

The one used to butcher the victims.

Gotcha. Whose hand was it in?

To be clear, you wrote:

"Another thing that does concern regardless of who is identified as BG is that there's no evidence linking him to the knife in his hand"

I don't understand.

 

[gremlin444]

Just finished today's Murder Sheet episode.

A few notes:
Witness David McCain who had been out taking pictures on the bridge/trail--when asked which we he headed on 300N, he said that he couldn't remember at all and that it really could have been either way. He said even looking at the map didn't jog his memory. Whichever way he did go, he didn't see any pedestrians on the road.

The prescribing psychiatrist at Westville was Dr. Martin (I remember someone asking earlier).

The FBI agent who wrote the Max Weber interview report can't come not just because he's in charge of doing election security in Texas--he also can't travel because he has a health condition that prohibits it.

 

[mrjitty]

Thank you so much! That is very helpful. Question: Could the three of them have made it to the final location in 10 minutes? That seems unlikely to me, given the terrain and considering it takes 10 minutes to cross the MHB. I hope someone in the trial has actually determined if that’s possible.

The phone made that journey to its final resting place no matter what. the 2nd location theory requires an accomplice to take the phone across the stream and place it there as the girls are driven away.

MOO

 

[mrjitty]

#NEW: The defense in the #Delphi double murders trial will not be permitted to include Odinism as they present their case.

No third party suspects.

More incoming.

@WISHNews8 #RichardAllen #RichardAllenTrial

https://twitter.com/x/status/1852468149750501728

Scott Reisch was correct that the defense strategically blundered on Odinism IMO. they should have kept it for cross examination but instead they overplayed their hand, and ended up having to present evidence for it in a contested hearing. Problem is they had no evidence.

They should have known this because it is obvious to anyone who reads the Indiana case law on SODDI that they didn’t have enough. Bob Motta and co actively misled their audiences about this.

MOO

 

[KooshBall]

I wonder if KA plans on her and RA resuming normal married life if he is acquitted. I think she should be concerned for her safety, both RA and/or an angry member of the public could be possible threats. I remember when RA was first arrested, we were able to see KA's FB page. I got the impression that she drug him around on vacations and public outings, trying to show a happily married couple, but he looked miserable and checked out. Learning that RA is an alcoholic, sex addict, mental issues has me thinking that behind closed doors this was not a happy or healthy relationship. Just out of my own morbid curiosity, I hope she writes a book someday. "Down to Hell. My life with the Delphi Killer". All just my random musings and opinions.

Edited to correct spelling

 

[Dhighsmith]

This is my first big trial since McStay and i am once more struck at the banal evil that stalks the land. I suspect this is why there is such a need to believe in a big occult conspiracy and corrupt police department.

It’s much harder to believe that one day a nobody from CVS went and butchered two young girls or that a family friend would club an entire family to death with a hammer over a few 1000 dollars.

IMO that demand for meaning is what is being exploited here.

But the reality is a lot more frightening than some middle aged dudes stringing people up in trees and posting it on facebook. It’s taudry and.desperately sad crimes committed by deeply broken men

Moo

Perfect assessment of those who often reject the answers from investigation believing responses to the “why” and “how” are impossible to determine in LE investigation.

 

[mrjitty]

For those wanting a refresher on the legal standard for presentation of an alternate suspect defence in Indiana, The Prosecutors conducted a handy legal analysis of the local case law authorities.

Even back in April, it was clear that the D would struggle to get Odinism in. But then at the 3 day hearing, the paucity of admissible evidence was laid bare. Against their man suspect, they had literally no admissible evidence. Agains the other suspect, they had an unclear statement to LE, but their central witness, they did not even produce at the hearing

The problem is D surrogates misled their fans with claims that things like the suspects son knowing the victim was a nexus or generalisations about a constitutional right to put on a defence. (See the Reisch video below - this is not the law!)

Baldwin and Rozzi have known all along that they can't mount a SODDI defence on vague facebook posts and theories based on no evidence about how maybe someone didn't go to work even though employment records show he was at work. Ditto they knew that the FBI and Prof Turcow did not in fact support their theory. All they had was a couple of LEOs who had to admit at the hearing that it was all a hunch and they had no evidence the alternates were even in Delphi that day.

So I don't worry about constitutional rights here. The D knew what the law was, and decided to overhype a conspiracy. As Scott Reisch notes, they should have kept it more low key for cross, surfaced it in front of the jurors in the teeth of objections and perhaps kept it more generalised.

Prosecutors. SODDI Law review.

Defence Attorney Scott Reisch on how the D pursued a failed strategy that was never coming in

 

[mrjitty]

Agreed, partially. I was awaiting the 3-day pretrial hearing with dread because I still believed there could be some very strong evidence against KAK. Needless to say I was shocked at the 10 mins they spent on him.

And ask yourself why that is.

The Defence knows very well these other guys didn't help. You need alts that look like Bridge Guy for starters

 

[Niner]

Saturday, November 2nd:
*Trial continues (Day 14) (@ 9am ET) – IN – Abigail Joyce Williams (13) & Liberty Rose Lynn German (14) (Missing Feb. 13, 2017, found killed Feb. 14, 2017, after walking on a local hiking trail & were discovered around noon about 50 feet from the north bank of Deer Creek which is about 0.5 miles from the Monon High Bridge Trail, Delphi) – *Richard “Ricky/Rick” Matthew Allen (44 @ time of crime/50/now 52) arrested & booked (10/26/22) into the Carroll County Jail & charged & arraigned (10/28/22) with 2 counts of murder while committing or attempting to commit kidnapping of both victims. Plead not guilty. Initial bond @ $20M on 10/27/22. On 2/16/23 held with no bond.
Amended charges (on 1/18/24/granted on 3/18/24): 2 counts of felony murder (knowingly & intentionally), 2 counts of murder (while committing or attempting to commit kidnapping of both victims). Plead not guilty. Carroll County
*Transferred to White County jail from Carroll County for security reasons. And was transferred (11/2/22) to IN. DOC at Westville Correctional Facility at a more secure facility. Was awaiting transfer to Westville Correctional Facility but Judge Gull denied move (6/15/23). She plans to take the arguments under advisement & will make a ruling on whether or not he will be moved out of Westville at a later date. Judge Gull denied move (7/5/23). On 12/6/23 Allen was transferred from Westville to Wabash Valley Correctional Facility (long term segregation). Allen was booked (5/6/24) into the Allen County Jail [for hearing on 5/7/24]. Allen back (5/7/24) to Wabash Valley Correctional Facility. Judge Gull granted transfer [8/1/24] of custody to the Carroll County Sheriff [instead of IDOC] but will be held in Cass County jail until trial is over.
Trial began with jury selection on 10/14/24 & ended 10/15/24.
Trial began on 10/18/24. Mondays thru Fridays from 9am to 6pm. Saturdays from 9am to noon. Prosecutors rested their case on 10/31/24. Defense began their case on 10/31/24.
*12 jurors (7 women & 5 men) & 4 alternates [3 women & 1 man]. One alternate was dismissed for a family emergency on 10/25/24. 3 Alternates left (3 women). Jury is sequestered.
Allen County Judge Frances C. Gull presiding. Carroll County Prosecutor Nicholas McLeland & Special Prosecutor James David Luttrull, Jr.
Andrew Baldwin & Bradley Rozzi are Allen’s public appointed attorneys & added Jennifer Auger [addressing the circumstances surrounding digital forensics].
Charges, case & court info from 4/19/21 thru 10/11/24 & Jury Selection Day 1-2 (10/14-10/15/24) & thru 10/16/24 & Trial Day 1-12 (10/18-10/31/24) reference post #4 here:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...hi-murders-richard-allen-arrested-209.727700/
10/31/24 Docket updates: Order issued for transport [for inmate Jesse James] by Judge Gull. Noticed: McLeland, Baldwin, Rozzi, Luttrull, Diener & Auger.
10/31/24 Docket updates: Verified petition for rirt of Mandamus & Restator's Brief in Support of Petition for Writ of Mandamus both filed by Andrea Burkhart. Se post #133, page 7, thread 209.
11/1/24 Friday, Trial Day 13: Judge gull tells defense attorney Brad Rozzi that they will chat about his motions he’s filed on transports during the lunch break. The defense calls Christopher Gootee & the state immediately calls for a sidebar.
*Defense witnesses: Hammond Police Officer Christopher Gootee [he was with an FBI gang response task force or GRIT. They focused on kidnappings. Gootee tells the jury that GRIT assisted with the Delphi investigation by canvassing neighborhoods & conducting interviews. He says he worked on the investigation for over a week. He interviewed Brad Weber with FBI Special Agent Adam Pohl who wrote the report]. Dr. Deanna Dwenger. [She oversees the Dept. of Behavioral Health at the Indiana DOC]. Max Baker, who is an intern who works for the defense. [He was asked to compile video of Allen at Westville & put it on a flash drive. There are two main video formats, camcorder video 7 security camera video. The camcorder video is video outside of Allen’s cell & the security video is inside Allen’s cell. The camcorder video has sound, the security video does not. The prosecution objected & there was another sidebar. Judge Gull says she admits the camcorder video with exceptions. The defense can submit the camcorder video, but the video from April to July 2023 cannot be submitted with sound. She admits the spreadsheets]. Ultimately, it appeared Judge Gull decided to allow videos to be played without audio. The debate wasn’t finished there, however. The defense said it couldn’t say for sure when the videos were from because of the way they were labeled in discovery. Gull said they can’t use the videos if they can’t verify the dates. The defense will do some additional research and try to introduce them later. Allen’s team will call additional witnesses after lunch.
*11/1/24 Docket update: Motion for witness to appear remotely filed by Allen. For Supervisory Special Agent Adam Pohl of the FBI. This is regarding interview with Brad Weber. See link: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1GMlvkQQjNax1N7vn-a8G563ifTuFvSCe/view
*Defense witnesses [continued]: Brad Heath. David McCain [was project manager of the Monon High Bridge Trail]. Former Delphi Fire Chief Darrell Sterrett. Steve Mullin, the former Delphi police chief, now an investigator for prosecutor's office]. Tobe Leazenby [who was the Carroll County sheriff from 2015-2022, now chief deputy for the Sheriff's office].
*Next came a motion from the defense to have inmates in Indiana DOC facilities to be transported. The defense also noted its latest motion to admit evidence of Odinism, a modern pagan religion & an Old Norse religion. A third motion asked for a witness, an FBI special agent who is out of state on assignment, to appear remotely. The judge granted a motion for inmate Jesse James to be transported to the courtroom in Delphi. She denied the motion to allow testimony about Odinism. Judge Gull also denied any witnesses via videoconferencing.
For more info see post #70 (Day 13 blog) here:
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/t...ders-richard-allen-arrested-209.727700/page-4
Trial continues on Saturday, 11/2/24 @ 9am.