Accident or Intentional; Evidence and Debate(MERGED)

[LinasK]

I do not believe Kc knew Caylee was dead. She thought she was with someone. As a matter of fact, I do not believe the Le even know when Caylee died. Kc is not Sp. He had motive, he was going out with a very beautiful young woman. His wife was just in his way. That is what I call motive. Kc loved Caylee. I disagree, I think Caylee was a photo op to her. On many occasions thru text or email she expressed that she could not go out because she had Caylee. (That's because Caylee was a ball and chain to her IMO). She was doing the right thing. Having Caylee sleep in between her and her lovers was doing the right thing?? No reason for me to believe something snapped after 2 and a half years. Never said snapped, If you read my earlier post, Caylee was never a wanted child, simply one Casey waited to long to abort( she waited 7 months to publicly admit she was pregnant) and didn't put up for adoption- although she made inquiries. Even Cindy called Caylee a "mistake". I believe Casey had planned this for months, since the computer searches, and the fight with Cindy and Tony not wanting girls, just sped up her plan.

Kc could not help search, she had an ankle bracelet on. I'm talking prior to her arrest. Why didn't she search in June??? I would never expect a grieving person to search for their loved one. Why was she grieving prior to Caylee's body being found? As far as looking into it, the defense said on 48 hours that she did have someone looking into it.Who? Dominic Casey? Jose Baez? and when??? I think many are going to become surprised come trial time. Why??? IMO

My responses are in red.

 

[Just Jayla]

She made it clear this was her "sister", a sister from another mother and father. I realize that people like KC are incapable of forming real bonds but she talked about getting pregnant together. If she wasn't really feeling close to her she was doing her best to act like she was. I guess no one told her that mothers who lost children are supposed to act sad.

IIRC (Dear God, I hope I am remembering correctly when I write this)....KC wrote to the girl about her, uh, acquaintance with the rainforest. How much closer do you get?

IMO, there is obviously not direct evidence that rules out certain types of accidents. But, the people of Florida (all states that I know of) have decided that in order for them to bring charges against one of their citizens, direct evidence is not necessary. The state may seek the death penalty strictly upon indicative circumstantial evidence-So while we can argue all day that an accident could have happened in spite of KC's silence, or that we somehow need direct evidence in order to rule out an accident, the fact is that at trial the jury will look to the duct tape, to KC's behavior, to the forensics, etc. and consider it as evidence.
So, a very important piece of trial-time evidence that it was not an accident can be the fact that KC failed to report an accident....for 31 days, and prolly longer if CA didn't find her.

 

[Astraea]

I have NOT found this to be true. I lost a baby at 20 weeks to a stillbirth and attended support groups for parents that lost children. I have also had several friends that have lost children. I cannot think of one that was able to hide their grief. It was almost an aura, that is how I knew that this was another mother with a loss. Especially in the first few weeks/months. I just read KC's note that she apparently wrote at Christmas time, 2008, weeks after she knew Caylee was gone. This was a note to a women she claimed was her closet friend. Their wasn't a syllable about Caylee in there, during Christmas yet, the hardest time for a parent to face after a loss. She supposedly could talk about anything to this woman but not a word about any kind of loss. I realize that KC isn't normal and she has personality disorders but unless your heart is made of stone (or you intentionally caused the death) your pain is pallable. There is no way Caylee's death was even remotely an accident. If the duct tape didn't tell me that, KC's own behavior confirmed it.

I am sorry for your loss DaisyGirl....I hope your days are as gentle as possible, as I do with all those who have experienced the loss of a child and/or other family member. I agree that no one can fathom the pain of losing a child unless they have lived through it themselves.

I too have utilized support groups and it is my experience that some of us do hide grief well when in the company of strangers and/or the public. I even hold myself together when in the company of my Father (who I am extremely close to), because I see how much he hurts when I hurt. I know many other women who also hide their grief when with coworkers,extended family, acquaintances, etc.. These women do not have personality disorders and/or hearts of stone, they choose to grieve privately. I understand if your experience has been different and I one hundred percent respect that. I tend to think that if Casey were grieving she may do it privately. I think there is a reason the Chaplain comes to see her, this could be one of them.

At this point in time I do personally feel this was an accident, I always have(the trial and/or other evidence may change that). I do not think the defense is going to use an accident in their case, but I think the SA is going to have to address it somehow, because it is going to be in the minds of jurors (just as much as it is in the minds of the public).

I believe that the duct tape was placed there after death. I do not see evidence to indicate that it was placed there prior to death. Maybe that evidence is yet to come. The heart sticker was re examined by me today, and I am left feeling even less inclined to believe "intenional death by duct tape". First of all, if Casey hated Caylee so very much, then why the heart sticker?

I have stated a few reasons why I personally feel that the chloroform is irrelevant. If I see evidence that Casey intentionally went about making or purchasing chloroform, then I may change that opinion.

I still do not get what her motive for intentionally killing Caylee would be. The motive currently being implied (that she hates Cindy, so out of spite she killed Caylee, because she is a self centred, narcissistic, spiteful, evil, sociopathic, psychopath) just does not "jive" for me. If this is the theory it would make much more sense to me for Casey to take Caylee away ALIVE and use her to taunt Cindy, all the while "partying it up". She would be much to selfish to risk her life and she would have invented a much better story in 31 days. JMO

It makes much more sense to me that Caylee died accidently in the pool or fell off the ladder while Casey was on the computer/phone (thus the dogs "hitting" there), or something else of that nature. Casey then freaking out tries to resuscitate her, calling her parents frantically for help. At some point she thinks up the kidnapping story, completed the act of duct taping her(with the heart sticker), disposed of her with or without help. I think she may have totally "lost her mind" in some ways in the midst of all of this.

Regardless, I do not think that the defense is going to use this in their case, so it also not likely relevant. I personally feel that her defense team is serving her poorly, from what I have so far witnessed. Then again, I do not know what their defense is actually going to be at this point. I am definitely interested to find out though!!

This is of course JMOO!

 

[Astraea]

IMO - Not all the world is as stoic and private as you wish to be nts. However, when Casey was writing her private letters to her new BFF in prison, supposively expressing her true feelings, was that "public" since she considered this woman her "sister" and "family" and declared her as such. Would you expect her to mention even a smidgeon of grief at the loss of Caylee?

IMO there was a smidgen of grief in those letters. More then I like to think I would have shared with another inmate. She does mention Caylee in those letters and I did read them all.

 

[Astraea]

On the last thread you posted this, it was such an adamant statement, it was disputed, so I looked it up.


http://www.parentingweekly.com/pregnancy/breathingspace/vol39/pregnancy_health_fitness.asp
"One scientist who believes that mothering behavior is learned and not instinctual is Sarah Blaffer Hrdy, professor emeritus of anthropology at the University of California at Davis and author of Mother Nature: A History of Mothers, Infants, and Natural Selection."
----------
"Although she concedes that maternal responses exist, she believes they are biologically conditioned, but not true instincts."

http://www.tannerlectures.utah.edu/lectures/documents/Hrdy_02.pdf
This is a lecture she gave at the University of Utah on the subject
February 27 and 28, 2001 (not going to quote the lecture)

Sarah Blaffer Hrdy is professor emeritus of anthropology at the
University of California, Davis. She was educated at Radcliffe College
and received her Ph.D. from Harvard University. Hrdy is the recipient
of a Guggenheim Fellowship, a member of the National Academy of
Sciences and the California Academy of Sciences, and a fellow of the Animal
Behavior Society and the American Academy of Arts and Sciences.

BBM I just want to say, as my last post on this OT Topic (since it just wont go away),that I think it is important to look at all sides of an issue when looking for an answer to a question, not just that which will support your claim.

The strange thing is that this is exactly what I personally think the police and the SA have done in this case instead of letting the evidence speak for itself. This is also the reason I think a jury could very well end up locked.
JMOO

 

[LinasK]

I have stated a few reasons why I personally feel that the chloroform is irrelevant. If I see evidence that Casey intentionally went about making or purchasing chloroform, then I may change that opinion. (I responded to this on another thread- what if she stole the Chloroform??)

I still do not get what her motive for intentionally killing Caylee would be. (Caylee was a ball and chain to her- Tony also didn't want little girls around and she cramped Casey's partying lifestyle. Caylee was never a wanted child.) The motive currently being implied (that she hates Cindy, so out of spite she killed Caylee, because she is a self centred, narcissistic, spiteful, evil, sociopathic, psychopath) just does not "jive" for me. If this is the theory it would make much more sense to me for Casey to take Caylee away ALIVE and use her to taunt Cindy, all the while "partying it up". She would be much to selfish to risk her life and she would have invented a much better story in 31 days. JMO

My responses in red.

 

[MissDiva]

I hope I don't get slammed for this.

While I feel ICA is responsible for Caylee's death, I'm still just not seeing premeditated murder. I think Casey did love her daughter. I think she could have had an abortion without anyone being the wiser. I think she could have left Caylee with her grandparents if she didn't want to raise her.

I do think she's very messed up in the head. I do think there are issues in that family, or possibly just issues with Casey herself. I understand the jealousy motive, the wanting to be with TL motive, but I still think she could have just left Caylee with GA and CA if she wanted her freedom so much.

I know about the chloroform and the duct tape. I can't help but wonder if the duct tape was used post-mortem to keep, uh, fluids from leaking out of Caylee's body.

Please note that I've had a bad feeling about Casey from DAY 1, which would have been July 16th when the case first came out. I do think she was directly involved with Caylee's death, but all these other facts bother me. I think she has severe psychological issues. I dunno. I just don't see it pre-meditated yet. I still can't help but think it may have been an accident, manslaughter, or just a snap or going overboard by Casey. I don't know.

Does this truly not bother anyone else? There are so many other things she could have done if she had wanted to be rid of Caylee. I don't know.

Argh, this is bothering me so much. I wish she'd just freaking TELL THE TRUTH about what happened! There might be forgiveness for her if she did. Might be.

Maybe I just hate to think that anyone is all evil.

I do NOT think that GA or anyone else had anything to do with this, though.

 

[Turnadot]

I hope I don't get slammed for this.

While I feel ICA is responsible for Caylee's death, I'm still just not seeing premeditated murder. I think Casey did love her daughter. I think she could have had an abortion without anyone being the wiser. I think she could have left Caylee with her grandparents if she didn't want to raise her.

I do think she's very messed up in the head. I do think there are issues in that family, or possibly just issues with Casey herself. I understand the jealousy motive, the wanting to be with TL motive, but I still think she could have just left Caylee with GA and CA if she wanted her freedom so much.

I know about the chloroform and the duct tape. I can't help but wonder if the duct tape was used post-mortem to keep, uh, fluids from leaking out of Caylee's body.

Please note that I've had a bad feeling about Casey from DAY 1, which would have been July 16th when the case first came out. I do think she was directly involved with Caylee's death, but all these other facts bother me. I think she has severe psychological issues. I dunno. I just don't see it pre-meditated yet. I still can't help but think it may have been an accident, manslaughter, or just a snap or going overboard by Casey. I don't know.

Does this truly not bother anyone else? There are so many other things she could have done if she had wanted to be rid of Caylee. I don't know.

Argh, this is bothering me so much. I wish she'd just freaking TELL THE TRUTH about what happened! There might be forgiveness for her if she did. Might be.

Maybe I just hate to think that anyone is all evil.

I do NOT think that GA or anyone else had anything to do with this, though.

BBM.

IIRC, legally, if KC had time, even a minute, to change her mind about murdering Caylee, then it was premeditated.

 

[Tulessa]

I hope I don't get slammed for this.

While I feel ICA is responsible for Caylee's death, I'm still just not seeing premeditated murder. I think Casey did love her daughter. I think she could have had an abortion without anyone being the wiser. I think she could have left Caylee with her grandparents if she didn't want to raise her.

I do think she's very messed up in the head. I do think there are issues in that family, or possibly just issues with Casey herself. I understand the jealousy motive, the wanting to be with TL motive, but I still think she could have just left Caylee with GA and CA if she wanted her freedom so much.

I know about the chloroform and the duct tape. I can't help but wonder if the duct tape was used post-mortem to keep, uh, fluids from leaking out of Caylee's body.

Please note that I've had a bad feeling about Casey from DAY 1, which would have been July 16th when the case first came out. I do think she was directly involved with Caylee's death, but all these other facts bother me. I think she has severe psychological issues. I dunno. I just don't see it pre-meditated yet. I still can't help but think it may have been an accident, manslaughter, or just a snap or going overboard by Casey. I don't know.

Does this truly not bother anyone else? There are so many other things she could have done if she had wanted to be rid of Caylee. I don't know.

Argh, this is bothering me so much. I wish she'd just freaking TELL THE TRUTH about what happened! There might be forgiveness for her if she did. Might be.

Maybe I just hate to think that anyone is all evil.

I do NOT think that GA or anyone else had anything to do with this, though.

Awe sweetie. No one's going to slam you for your opinion here. We have EXCELLENT Mods and that would never be permitted.

I understand where you are coming from but it does not explain away the duct tape & the highest levels of chloroform that Dr. Vass had EVER witnessed. JMO of course, but the duct tape tells me premeditation.

 

[Gma Kat]

I totally get where you are coming from. It's pretty hard to wrap our heads around the enigma known as ICA. I have not felt comfortable with premeditation at times in the past 3-years also. With that said, seeing this case play out again, with ICA's outrageous defense strategy, I am just now really allowing myself to see a woman who could kill her child in cold blood and go about her day. I think she is on that level. It doesn't mean she didn't love Caylee. I think she loved Caylee as an extension of herself. When people complimented Caylee on the stand it was as if they were saying Casey was a great mother, just look how special this girl was. But we are not saying that. I think that is what ICA hears. This person in that courtroom putting her parents through hell, who put a lot of people through hell, well, she put Caylee through something similar too. We don't know exactly what, and I too want to believe that duct tape was post-mortem and to stop fluids. Again, the longer ICA is on trial, the easier it gets to believe she could be a cold blooded murderer.

 

[MissDiva]

Oh, I totally understand that legally. I just don't know that the duct tape proves pre-meditation. Do I think Caylee was abused? Yes. Do I think think Casey is directly responsible for the death? Absolutely! Do I think it could have been an accident? Possibly.

I still want to see her in jail for the rest of her life at the very least, but I can't resolve these thoughts that keep going through my head.

 

[MissDiva]

Awe sweetie. No one's going to slam you for your opinion here. We have EXCELLENT Mods and that would never be permitted.

I understand where you are coming from but it does not explain away the duct tape & the highest levels of chloroform that Dr. Vass had EVER witnessed. JMO of course, but the duct tape tells me premeditation.

Honestly, my first thought about the duct tape was that it was used afterwards to keep fluids from escaping the body.

But thank you for making me feel better. I guess I have to continue to hear all the evidence. I guess I'm just such an optimistic person that I keep HOPING it was an accident, you know? But yeah, that doesn't explain the lying.

 

[Gma Kat]

Oh, I totally understand that legally. I just don't know that the duct tape proves pre-meditation. Do I think Caylee was abused? Yes. Do I think think Casey is directly responsible for the death? Absolutely! Do I think it could have been an accident? Possibly.

I still want to see her in jail for the rest of her life at the very least, but I can't resolve these thoughts that keep going through my head.

I am interested to see Dr. G on the stand. I want to hear more about her theory that the duct tape was put on while Caylee was still alive. We know it was never meant to be removed, but I'm not familiar enough to understand what forensics could prove it was placed on Caylee before she died...........bluk, I hate saying that.

 

[MissDiva]

I totally get where you are coming from. It's pretty hard to wrap our heads around the enigma known as ICA. I have not felt comfortable with premeditation at times in the past 3-years also. With that said, seeing this case play out again, with ICA's outrageous defense strategy, I am just now really allowing myself to see a woman who could kill her child in cold blood and go about her day. I think she is on that level. It doesn't mean she didn't love Caylee. I think she loved Caylee as an extension of herself. When people complimented Caylee on the stand it was as if they were saying Casey was a great mother, just look how special this girl was. But we are not saying that. I think that is what ICA hears. This person in that courtroom putting her parents through hell, who put a lot of people through hell, well, she put Caylee through something similar too. We don't know exactly what, and I too want to believe that duct tape was post-mortem and to stop fluids. Again, the longer ICA is on trial, the easier it gets to believe she could be a cold blooded murderer.

Ugh, don't get me started on the DT. And I seriously want to smack Casey. I just don't know what to think. However, that's an interesting point about loving Caylee as an extension of herself.

And yes, what she's doing to everyone around her disgusts me. I guess most of my forgiveness left when she didn't fess up to whatever happened.

 

[MissDiva]

I am interested to see Dr. G on the stand. I want to hear more about her theory that the duct tape was put on while Caylee was still alive. We know it was never meant to be removed, but I'm not familiar enough to understand what forensics could prove it was placed on Caylee before she died...........bluk, I hate saying that.

Me too! I think that would help tremendously with my conflicted feelings.

 

[A_News_Junkie]

I hope I don't get slammed for this.

While I feel ICA is responsible for Caylee's death, I'm still just not seeing premeditated murder. I think Casey did love her daughter. I think she could have had an abortion without anyone being the wiser. I think she could have left Caylee with her grandparents if she didn't want to raise her.

I do think she's very messed up in the head. I do think there are issues in that family, or possibly just issues with Casey herself. I understand the jealousy motive, the wanting to be with TL motive, but I still think she could have just left Caylee with GA and CA if she wanted her freedom so much.

I know about the chloroform and the duct tape. I can't help but wonder if the duct tape was used post-mortem to keep, uh, fluids from leaking out of Caylee's body.

Please note that I've had a bad feeling about Casey from DAY 1, which would have been July 16th when the case first came out. I do think she was directly involved with Caylee's death, but all these other facts bother me. I think she has severe psychological issues. I dunno. I just don't see it pre-meditated yet. I still can't help but think it may have been an accident, manslaughter, or just a snap or going overboard by Casey. I don't know.

Does this truly not bother anyone else? There are so many other things she could have done if she had wanted to be rid of Caylee. I don't know.

Argh, this is bothering me so much. I wish she'd just freaking TELL THE TRUTH about what happened! There might be forgiveness for her if she did. Might be.

Maybe I just hate to think that anyone is all evil.

I do NOT think that GA or anyone else had anything to do with this, though.

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[Turnadot]

Oh, I totally understand that legally. I just don't know that the duct tape proves pre-meditation. Do I think Caylee was abused? Yes. Do I think think Casey is directly responsible for the death? Absolutely! Do I think it could have been an accident? Possibly.

I still want to see her in jail for the rest of her life at the very least, but I can't resolve these thoughts that keep going through my head.

The ME believes the duct tape was applied before decomposition started: “This duct tape was clearly placed prior to decomposition, keeping the mandible in place”

Why, in your opinion, would KC have placed the duct tape over Caylee's airways?

You can find the autopsy report here http://blogs.discovery.com/criminal_report/2009/06/caylee-anthonys-autopsy-report.html

 

[Tulessa]

Oh, I totally understand that legally. I just don't know that the duct tape proves pre-meditation. Do I think Caylee was abused? Yes. Do I think think Casey is directly responsible for the death? Absolutely! Do I think it could have been an accident? Possibly.

I still want to see her in jail for the rest of her life at the very least, but I can't resolve these thoughts that keep going through my head.

Understood, and my dear hubby thinks like you do. He thinks that she was chloroformed and was given too much and Casey panicked. He then thinks she applied the tape to keep Caylee from purging in her car. But then hubby hasn't read ALL 10,000 pages like I have and just started today, watching the videos. I totally disagree with my DH, but that's what has made our marriage so strong. I don't believe in the DP & he does. Notice in my siggy, my brother? He wants to be the one to give his murderer the injection and I respect his feelings. After all, we literally raised my baby bro. He would rather be with us than Mom & Dad. Oh the memories we made though.

 

[aussiesleuth]

I always thought the duct tape was applied after death, either to stage a kidnapping or to stop leakage. I also believe it was a rage killing, and Casey just snapped. If Casey was feeling overwhelmed by the responsibilities of raising a child, she may have felt trapped. Leaving Caylee with her parents was not really an option for her. She would not be able to watch Cindy do a better job with Caylee than she could, and cope with Cindy's constant reminders of what a failure she was as a mother. As volatile as her relationship with Cindy was, she still craved her mother's approval. We can tell by her reactions in court that Cindy is still quite a force in Casey's life.

 

[Gma Kat]

I can clearly see that many of us find it difficult, if not impossible, to believe in pure evil. Susan Smith surely loved her children at one time. Something happened that made their lives less valuable than hers. Maybe she never loved them and "played" at being a good mommy. IDK, but evil does exist. It is so hard to believe that mothers can be unloving. That narcissists exist on this level of sociapathy is pretty frightening. I don't believe that sociopaths are unable to love, because I have watched the "Iceman" documentaries where he describes the horrific things he did to people as a mob hit man.......I mean the most horrific stuff I've ever heard of.........and yet he loved his children very much. So crazy is just crazy and sometimes we simply can't understand it.

I'm leaning really hard toward intentional on this one now..............I've run out of excuses or logical, heck, even illogical explanations for ICA...........