Accident or Intentional; Evidence and Debate(MERGED)

[ZsaZsa]

I am not sure this case will ever be used as precedent during this trial, as I dont foresee the defense actually SAYING that Caylees death was an accident. I personally feel it was though.

But thanks for the extra reading material lol

Courts cite precedent every day.

 

[LambChop]

I was only tryng to clarify my reference to Shirley. I did not state that Caseys priority was Caylee, although I do believe in her immature way it was. She could have easily put her up for adoption, left her with Cindy etc etc..

I did not find her writings indicative of a happy and carefree girl, I found them to be pretty on par with an inmate in protective custody writing to another inmate whom she barely knew.

I have also lost and grieved heavily for my child (I always will), but I can not judge Casey based on my manner of grieving. If so, I would state that because I have a tattoo in honour of my child, that her tattoo is also indicative of heavy grief for her child (this was the reason for mine).

I also do not know how I would react if my child had died due to my neglect after being told by my Mother I was unfit. This may change my grief process, as would being locked up in protective custody for months I assume.

I also spent(and spend) a LOT of time hiding my grief, and my child died through absolutely NO fault of my own (though as women we always carry the if I had or if I had nots....). I would NOT expect any woman to display her grief publicly, or to a stranger for that matter. More often then not I find women do a wonderful job of covering their grief, although as a society we seem to find that strange. JMO

I am sincerely sorry for your loss. We all pray as mothers that our children make it to adulthood and beyond. Burying a child is the hardest of all deaths to deal with. You have a lot to deal with I'm sure and grieving is very important and having taken psych courses you probably already know that. I personally took "Death, Grief and Loss" in college and I insisted my husband who had lost two infant sisters attend the class. After almost losing her son my daughter also attended the class. There is no right or wrong way to grieve but there is such a thing as absence of grief as well as absence of conscious. This is what I see in KC. Not an expert but I've seen many, many grieving parents....KC is not one of them. There are just some places a grieving mother just will not go regardless of how brave a front she puts on for the public. You may not think people are aware of your grief but they are. They can see it in your eyes, they can hear it in your voice and they can sense it in your heart. They are just being polite and letting you have your space, I would think.

I am very sorry to say that I do not see that grief at any of the stages in KC. I believe the video of when she was told reveals that as well. The judge saw it and believes it should not be released. We could see it and think she is really grief stricken or we might determine she just looks as if she got caught.....this is why it is sealed. Only an expert can give us an honest opinion.

By-the-way, I believe the new improved version of Zani took my baby is that she left Caylee with Zani for a few days so the tattoo was not for her child. When your child is missing you don't get a tattoo that says the "Beautiful Life". The tattoo goes along with her statements about "new beginnings" of which she never mentions Caylee once in her plans.

JMO

 

[BondJamesBond]

I have also lost and grieved heavily for my child (I always will), but I can not judge Casey based on my manner of grieving. If so, I would state that because I have a tattoo in honour of my child, that her tattoo is also indicative of heavy grief for her child (this was the reason for mine).

I also do not know how I would react if my child had died due to my neglect after being told by my Mother I was unfit. This may change my grief process, as would being locked up in protective custody for months I assume.

I also spent(and spend) a LOT of time hiding my grief, and my child died through absolutely NO fault of my own (though as women we always carry the if I had or if I had nots....). I would NOT expect any woman to display her grief publicly, or to a stranger for that matter. More often then not I find women do a wonderful job of covering their grief, although as a society we seem to find that strange. JMO

*snipped*

So sorry for your loss, Astraea. I just cannot fathom...:hug:

 

[nort]

I am sincerely sorry for your loss. We all pray as mothers that our children make it to adulthood and beyond. Burying a child is the hardest of all deaths to deal with. You have a lot to deal with I'm sure and grieving is very important and having taken psych courses you probably already know that. I personally took "Death, Grief and Loss" in college and I insisted my husband who had lost two infant sisters attend the class. After almost losing her son my daughter also attended the class. There is no right or wrong way to grieve but there is such a thing as absence of grief as well as absence of conscious. This is what I see in KC. Not an expert but I've seen many, many grieving parents....KC is not one of them. There are just some places a grieving mother just will not go regardless of how brave a front she puts on for the public. You may not think people are aware of your grief but they are. They can see it in your eyes, they can hear it in your voice and they can sense it in your heart. They are just being polite and letting you have your space, I would think.

I am very sorry to say that I do not see that grief at any of the stages in KC. I believe the video of when she was told reveals that as well. The judge saw it and believes it should not be released. We could see it and think she is really grief stricken or we might determine she just looks as if she got caught.....this is why it is sealed. Only an expert can give us an honest opinion.

By-the-way, I believe the new improved version of Zani took my baby is that she left Caylee with Zani for a few days so the tattoo was not for her child. When your child is missing you don't get a tattoo that says the "Beautiful Life". The tattoo goes along with her statements about "new beginnings" of which she never mentions Caylee once in her plans.

JMO

I just reread that and it really does break ones heart..I am watching this grief in my grandmother as my mother, her daughter passed in Sept. Caylee deserved better no matter who did it. IMO

 

[countzero]

When I lost my child, I grieved for years. I buried my child in the cemetery.

KC went to Blockbusters. KC dumped Caylee like three day old trash.

When I got my tattoo in memory of my child, I had their initials included.

KC's tattoo displayed her goals "happy life", no references of Caylee exist to date on her tattoo.

During the first year, I could only go to work. I had to be dragged to the stores. I couldn't go near a toy store or any isles with baby products.

During KC's first 31 days (that we know of), KC partied like it was 1999. Pole dancing and kissing gals. Target and grocery shopping were KC's daily routine haunts. TL was KC's entertainment.

When people who didn't know I lost my child asked me about it, I told them where and what happened with my child.

KC ---- oh well, we all know how many different versions of Caylee's disappearance and murder have been spoken by her.

By the way, I have never, not once, let my personal experiences influence my opinions of KC. From the moment NG had KC's arrest on her show, I knew Caylee was gone and KC was responsible; directly or indirectly.

 

[LambChop]

I just reread that and it really does break ones heart..I am watching this grief in my grandmother as my mother, her daughter passed in Sept. Caylee deserved better no matter who did it. IMO

This is very true. My husband died in January 2005 and my mother-in-law was so grief stricken she said she did not know how she would be able to survive without him. She died in September of the same year. It is indeed very hard to watch someone who has lost their child no matter how old that child is.

I just don't see it in KC, sorry to say. JMO

 

[LinasK]

I was just going through documents again(head spinning), and I know they requested these things in the warrant for the As home. I have yet to see which things they actually collected. I would think if they had found evidence of Casey making chloroform, we would have heard ALOT about it by now! jmo

I honestly believe that the chloroform issue is irrelevant. I also think it is only being talked about so much because people went into a frenzy after the first doc dump showing the computer searches, and just cant let it go. IF she had chloroformed her I would let go of my belief in it being an accident. I dont believe she did, nor does any of the evidence shown thus far lead me in that direction.

ETA: "yet to see" as in right now, which feels like one too many times sifting through this mess of docs!

O/T Everytime I get into the documents in this case(mixed in with all the new stories,blogs,posts,etc) I start feeling like I am going cuckoo...that much is a FACT!

Even if she searched for Chloroform and decided it was too much effort for her to make, she could still have stolen it. Others have suggested perhaps she obtained it from a tattoo shop. The only thing about this issue that I am certain, is that Cindy DID NOT obtain it for her from Gentiva- the Home Health Agency (not clinic as Casey said) she worked for.
Casey also had the "Win Her Over with Chloroform" graphic on her computer I believe, and she told the bounty hunter Tracey that it could be used as a knockout drug, much like GHB, so I do think Casey was obsessed with Chloroform.

 

[nort]

This is very true. My husband died in January 2005 and my mother-in-law was so grief stricken she said she did not know how she would be able to survive without him. She died in September of the same year. It is indeed very hard to watch someone who has lost their child no matter how old that child is.

I just don't see it in KC, sorry to say. JMO

I'm sorry for your loss..

 

[seekingjustice**]

I am sincerely sorry for your loss. We all pray as mothers that our children make it to adulthood and beyond. Burying a child is the hardest of all deaths to deal with. You have a lot to deal with I'm sure and grieving is very important and having taken psych courses you probably already know that. I personally took "Death, Grief and Loss" in college and I insisted my husband who had lost two infant sisters attend the class. After almost losing her son my daughter also attended the class. There is no right or wrong way to grieve but there is such a thing as absence of grief as well as absence of conscious. This is what I see in KC. Not an expert but I've seen many, many grieving parents....KC is not one of them. There are just some places a grieving mother just will not go regardless of how brave a front she puts on for the public. You may not think people are aware of your grief but they are. They can see it in your eyes, they can hear it in your voice and they can sense it in your heart. They are just being polite and letting you have your space, I would think.

I am very sorry to say that I do not see that grief at any of the stages in KC. I believe the video of when she was told reveals that as well. The judge saw it and believes it should not be released. We could see it and think she is really grief stricken or we might determine she just looks as if she got caught.....this is why it is sealed. Only an expert can give us an honest opinion.

By-the-way, I believe the new improved version of Zani took my baby is that she left Caylee with Zani for a few days so the tattoo was not for her child. When your child is missing you don't get a tattoo that says the "Beautiful Life". The tattoo goes along with her statements about "new beginnings" of which she never mentions Caylee once in her plans.

JMO

respectfully BBM - Lambchop thank you for a wonderful post and I couldn't agree more with you.

I am also a grieving mother, and I always will be. I have also spent many hours with other grieving parents and I do agree, we all grieve differently. Based on my own experience and knowledge of grieving parents, I will never ever accept that any of KC's behaviour was that of a grieving mother!

 

[flourish]

I was only tryng to clarify my reference to Shirley. I did not state that Caseys priority was Caylee, although I do believe in her immature way it was. She could have easily put her up for adoption, left her with Cindy etc etc..

I did not find her writings indicative of a happy and carefree girl, I found them to be pretty on par with an inmate in protective custody writing to another inmate whom she barely knew.

I have also lost and grieved heavily for my child (I always will), but I can not judge Casey based on my manner of grieving. If so, I would state that because I have a tattoo in honour of my child, that her tattoo is also indicative of heavy grief for her child (this was the reason for mine).

I also do not know how I would react if my child had died due to my neglect after being told by my Mother I was unfit. This may change my grief process, as would being locked up in protective custody for months I assume.

I also spent(and spend) a LOT of time hiding my grief, and my child died through absolutely NO fault of my own (though as women we always carry the if I had or if I had nots....). I would NOT expect any woman to display her grief publicly, or to a stranger for that matter. More often then not I find women do a wonderful job of covering their grief, although as a society we seem to find that strange. JMO

Respectfully bolded by me, for emphasis

Bold one: I respectfully disagree that she could "easily" have given Caylee up for adoption. There's been discussions about that, but all I will say for now (I'm supposed to be working:angel, is that Cindy was very much opposed to Casey putting the baby up for adoption. Not that she couldn't have anyway...she was of age, but it seems Cindy won that one.

Bold two: Yes, every mother grieves differently. IMHO, I don't think that Casey grieved. Period.

Bold three: You may not expect a woman to grieve publicly. My son was killed by his bio dad over a decade ago, and I still break down in pubic, particularly grocery stores for some reason. Even if a person can hide such deep grief, the body will show it.

No one will ever be able to convince me that this is the face of a grieving mother:

http://www.🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/13.jpg (sorry I couldn't find a copy of this pic that doesn't have the stupid words on it...I'm at work and not even supposed to be doing this at all...shhh don't tell the IT guys!)

JMO, of course. It is also my opinion that Casey deliberately, and with intended malice, murdered Caylee. My opinions are based on the evidence, photos, interviews, and documents that I have read, watched, and listened to since the day this story broke....the 31st day.

I know someone asked this earlier, but what exactly is the evidence that it was an accident?

 

[ZsaZsa]

This is very true. My husband died in January 2005 and my mother-in-law was so grief stricken she said she did not know how she would be able to survive without him. She died in September of the same year. It is indeed very hard to watch someone who has lost their child no matter how old that child is.

I just don't see it in KC, sorry to say. JMO

Really.
When I was 16, my 13yr old cousin died of Leukemia. Her parents looked like they had all the air sucked right out of them for the longest time- it just seemed they had trouble even breathing.... neither one wanted to live without her. It took years after this happened for them to be able enjoy life.
I was young and had never seen people grieving before, and It still brings tears to my eyes thinking of my Uncle, he had something belonging to Susan with him/ on him until the day he died, he missed her so much.
That is what grief looks like.

 

[AZlawyer]

If they found Chloroform or equipment used in making it I do not think they would have released that evidence yet- wouldn't it be considered 'Prejudicial'? Some other evidence has been withheld from the public for that very reason.

No, it would not be considered prejudicial. It would be highly relevant and very bad for Casey, but not prejudicial in the slightest. Prejudicial is not the same thing as "very bad for the defendant." It generally means "very bad for the defendant plus not really too helpful for determining any relevant fact in the case."

And if this type of evidence were being withheld from the public, we would have seen a motion requesting that it be withheld.

 

[ZsaZsa]

No, it would not be considered prejudicial. It would be highly relevant and very bad for Casey, but not prejudicial in the slightest. Prejudicial is not the same thing as "very bad for the defendant." It generally means "very bad for the defendant plus not really too helpful for determining any relevant fact in the case."

And if this type of evidence were being withheld from the public, we would have seen a motion requesting that it be withheld.

I guess I should stop using terms I don't really understand :dance:
I struggle with 'prejudiced' as you can see...
I equate it with evidence that would offer proof of guilt. To my lay mind that means it's relevant.... :innocent:

 

[Astraea]

This is very true. My husband died in January 2005 and my mother-in-law was so grief stricken she said she did not know how she would be able to survive without him. She died in September of the same year. It is indeed very hard to watch someone who has lost their child no matter how old that child is.

I just don't see it in KC, sorry to say. JMO

I am sorry for your loss LambChop.

...I usually just thumbs up posts I appreciate...but that didnt seem enough in this case....

 

[DairyGirl]

I was only tryng to clarify my reference to Shirley. I did not state that Caseys priority was Caylee, although I do believe in her immature way it was. She could have easily put her up for adoption, left her with Cindy etc etc..

I did not find her writings indicative of a happy and carefree girl, I found them to be pretty on par with an inmate in protective custody writing to another inmate whom she barely knew.

I have also lost and grieved heavily for my child (I always will), but I can not judge Casey based on my manner of grieving. If so, I would state that because I have a tattoo in honour of my child, that her tattoo is also indicative of heavy grief for her child (this was the reason for mine).

I also do not know how I would react if my child had died due to my neglect after being told by my Mother I was unfit. This may change my grief process, as would being locked up in protective custody for months I assume.

I also spent(and spend) a LOT of time hiding my grief, and my child died through absolutely NO fault of my own (though as women we always carry the if I had or if I had nots....). I would NOT expect any woman to display her grief publicly, or to a stranger for that matter. More often then not I find women do a wonderful job of covering their grief, although as a society we seem to find that strange. JMO

I have NOT found this to be true. I lost a baby at 20 weeks to a stillbirth and attended support groups for parents that lost children. I have also had several friends that have lost children. I cannot think of one that was able to hide their grief. It was almost an aura, that is how I knew that this was another mother with a loss. Especially in the first few weeks/months. I just read KC's note that she apparently wrote at Christmas time, 2008, weeks after she knew Caylee was gone. This was a note to a women she claimed was her closet friend. Their wasn't a syllable about Caylee in there, during Christmas yet, the hardest time for a parent to face after a loss. She supposedly could talk about anything to this woman but not a word about any kind of loss. I realize that KC isn't normal and she has personality disorders but unless your heart is made of stone (or you intentionally caused the death) your pain is pallable. There is no way Caylee's death was even remotely an accident. If the duct tape didn't tell me that, KC's own behavior confirmed it.

 

[flourish]

Respectfully bolded by me, for emphasis

Bold one: I respectfully disagree that she could "easily" have given Caylee up for adoption. There's been discussions about that, but all I will say for now (I'm supposed to be working:angel, is that Cindy was very much opposed to Casey putting the baby up for adoption. Not that she couldn't have anyway...she was of age, but it seems Cindy won that one.

Bold two: Yes, every mother grieves differently. IMHO, I don't think that Casey grieved. Period.

Bold three: You may not expect a woman to grieve publicly. My son was killed by his bio dad over a decade ago, and I still break down in pubic, particularly grocery stores for some reason. Even if a person can hide such deep grief, the body will show it.

No one will ever be able to convince me that this is the face of a grieving mother:

http://www.🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬🤬.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/13.jpg (sorry I couldn't find a copy of this pic that doesn't have the stupid words on it...I'm at work and not even supposed to be doing this at all...shhh don't tell the IT guys!)

JMO, of course. It is also my opinion that Casey deliberately, and with intended malice, murdered Caylee. My opinions are based on the evidence, photos, interviews, and documents that I have read, watched, and listened to since the day this story broke....the 31st day.

I know someone asked this earlier, but what exactly is the evidence that it was an accident?

Shoot, I previewed my post to make sure the picture didn't come up with ******** or whatever, then I left work, got home, and I see the big circle and red slash...MODS I'M SORRY!

Anyway, ya'll probably know which pic I was talking about anyway...the one where she's in the blue dress and she's grinning like she's about to overflow from glee....yeah, that one

 

[notthatsmart]

Yes, and I have seen stated on TV several times that they found her free of any mental illness.
It might have been on NG which you can take FWIW but I tend to believe what she says, and that agrees with what I think, so.....

You tend to believe what NG says?

 

[nort]

I have lost all my steam as my heart feels heavy..good night

 

[flourish]

I have NOT found this to be true. I lost a baby at 20 weeks to a stillbirth and attended support groups for parents that lost children. I have also had several friends that have lost children. I cannot think of one that was able to hide their grief. It was almost an aura, that is how I knew that this was another mother with a loss. Especially in the first few weeks/months. I just read KC's note that she apparently wrote at Christmas time, 2008, weeks after she knew Caylee was gone. This was a note to a women she claimed was her closet friend. Their wasn't a syllable about Caylee in there, during Christmas yet, the hardest time for a parent to face after a loss. She supposedly could talk about anything to this woman but not a word about any kind of loss. I realize that KC isn't normal and she has personality disorders but unless your heart is made of stone (or you intentionally caused the death) your pain is pallable. There is no way Caylee's death was even remotely an accident. If the duct tape didn't tell me that, KC's own behavior confirmed it.

Most respectfully bolded by me, for emphasis

DairyGirl, I wholeheartedly agree, and offer you a big virtual hug from another bereaved mother. I wouldn't have been able to pretend I wasn't a broken shell of a person after my son died, even if I wanted to. And there's no way I could have made my face, including my eyes, look as gleeful as Casey did in all those Fusian photos.

 

[notthatsmart]

KC does NOT exhibit nor has she been diagnosed with any mental deficiencies that prevents her, CA, GA or LA from knowing wrong from right in any legal meaning.

JB, with his clients permission, would have that bit of info printed in the USA Today, go on a full blown media blitz to every national and local media outlet stating this if there was any.

Sheeze, if KC was innocent, JB would have done this immediately. The fact that JB hasn't made any statement, submitted ANY type of discovery that it was an accident or verified proof that KC was not involved in Caylee's murder in any way, shape or form in close to two years speaks volumes more.

By legal standards as I understand them, KC is innocent until proven guilty and it is up to the SAs office to produce evidence of her guilt. That I get. What I don't get is JB's proclamation of KCs innocence yet she still sits in jail, adapting very well I might add.

I have read most if not all the SA's released evidence. I have spent hours reading. I have subjected myself to CA and GA's depos. My family has endured more crock pot dinners than I can count. My clothes have sat in the dryer for days. Even being snowed in under 33 inches of snow for weeks didn't deter me from reading.

Still waiting to read anything of substance (motions poorly written don't count) that JB releases. I will probably add more gray hairs while waiting, and waiting, and waiting .......... Baseball World Series will come and go (Go Tigers), Nascar will have run 36 races, the Super Bowl playoffs will have been played and March Madness will be over by the time we get to see any real meaningful evidence from JB.

Thank you for admitting that you have not read all the docs. I for one have admitted it as well. However, I have read thousands of documents since this case began. I have read most of the discovery with the exception of some of these latest letters. I think it is unrealistic to claim you have read all the docs.IMO