Accident or Intentional; Evidence and Debate(MERGED)

[LambChop]

Maybe I am off base, but I would think for one to do an assessment that they would have to meet/speak with/know the individual being assessed. At least for me to believe it were a reliable assessment. I also just cant get past any of the "media types" who have inserted themselves into this case(or any case), and very rarely take any of them and/or their views as reliable(regardless of their opinion on guilt/innocence).

I wish Casey had seen a mental health professional, or, in the event that she has, I would like to know the view of that expert. This could open up some good avenues for real discussion on this topic we are engaged in "accident vs intentional". I personally feel (as you all now know) that this was an accident. As such, I wish an "expert" would weigh in on the possibility of Caysee "losing it" after finding Caylee deceased. It sure explains a lot for me in regards to her actions after her death. I agree with most that her actions were and are bizarre, but I am just not comfortable in the notion that she seriously took 31 days to think up this story. To me it is as though she has totally disassociated herself from the actual event(Caylees death). No matter her guilt or innnocence there is something totally off about that to me. I refuse to buy "she is evil" as the reasoning unfortunately.

Many, many acredited experts in their field has described KC as a sociopath. The mental health exams will be presented at trial. JMO

 

[LambChop]

We will probably hear what the defense has to say about it when the trial begins, it will be interesting to see how they defend that. Just because we cant does not mean its impossible or that someone else might be able to.

Oh, that should be interesting given the fact that JB said his "experts" were not technically savy.

 

[LinasK]

This is from one of KC's letter prior to them finding the remains:

"I’ve had to forgive what happened to my Caylee, but I’m still angry. If it weren’t for God, screw where I’m sitting now. If it weren’t for him and for my unconditional love for my daughter, I would end whoever is responsible. It’s not my battle. You want to know something, I know that Caylee’s nanny, the “real” Zenaida, the girl who was my friend for 4 years, I know in my heart that she’s not showing her face. Would you want to be sitting here with me for something you didn’t do?

It's not my battle, hummm. Another famous quote from KC on a jail video with Lee: JB says it, LE says it "I'm the only resource". Put that together with "It's not my battle" and what do you see. Exactly what we in fact have; a mother who refused to cooperate with LE and the FBI who tried to locate her child. Given the opportunity during questioning to admit there was an accident and that LE understands that sometimes accidents happen, she denied it, denied it. Then stated "That's my story and I'm sticking to it." Well, I guess KC is now stuck with it and it was her own undoing. Her wording in the quote above is very carefully picked out. "End whoever is responsible" not "kill/beat up/shoot, etc. whoever is responsible even if it meant spending the rest of my life in jail" which is what a normal person would say. If you love your daughter unconditionally why would you protect the nanny because that is exactly what she is saying she is doing. And last sentence if Nanny was the kidnapper/killer why would KC be sitting right along side her in jail??? Your expectation would be you would be released with at least time served for the child abuse charges.

Anyone is free to voice their opinion and have someone else counter with their opinion, we all share here. As far as comments about "just getting a rope" no one here would ever think of suggesting such a thing. KC has her own rope and she is doing a good job of it herself. JMO

I agree totally, if it's not Casey's battle of all people- mother of the "missing" child, then whose battle is it??? And her sitting in jail to protect the innocent, non-existent nanny is shades of Scott Peterson. Who risks the death penalty for something they didn't do???

 

[ZsaZsa]

OT In regards to Astrea's last post..when I tell my husband what goes on here at websleuths he says why dont they just get a rope who needs a trial. Anyway I too was lurking and reading a long time before posting, out of fear really. I'm glad your here. I made a post in regards to Cindy saying Casey was unfit and the thread was closed I think you'll appreciate it if you want to go back and read it.

I saw your post but when CA says Kc is an unfit mother that is exactly what she means, and considering how much she likes to cover up I consider that a most ominous comment. CA told her work colleagues she was considering taking action to get custody of Caylee. That is not something you do just to manipulate your daughter. That would result in a permanent split between them, and I am sure she gave it a lot of thought over the course of Caylee's life before she decided to do that. To consider Court Action she must have felt she had a very strong case against KC as an unfit parent. That's not something the Court does lightly.
What a shame she did not have time to follow through on her plan, Caylee would be alive today. If she told KC that's what she was going to do that is probably the reason she left with Caylee in such a hurry.... no money, nowhere to go. She had no future, as CA says on her Myspace page, but she had Caylee and she could use her absence to torture her mother.

 

[marspiter]

As for intentional murder and the evidence in this case:

I think there is a misconception as to how circumstantial evidence works. In the minds of many in the general public. In fact there have been plenty of debates on here about it. What I think many forget is that all evidence that is not a direct confession or eyewitness testimony is circumstantial evidence. Personally I would argue that many forms of circumstantial evidence are far superior to direct evidence but that's a different debate for another thread.

I also think many in the general public have what is called the CSI effect or Law and Order effect. Our justice system is not what is portrayed on TV. You can't solves crimes in a single shift and your not going to have these nice neat cases wrapped in pretty bows with clear motive, body, weapon, eyewitness, and absolutes. True murder cases are about coming to the most reasonable answer based on the evidence at hand. Some believe a definitive murder weapon and body are needed in order to convict of murder one. People v. Scott 176 Cal. App. 2d 458 is a case that I always come back to.

This case in my opinion has some similar elements to that one and is a prime example of how circumstantial evidence works in painting the "big picture" for the jury to see. Many jurors are often told when being selected that the case they are going to be seated for is not the same as one on TV. In fact our local court here when selecting jurors the ADA talks about the CSI effect when questioning jurors.

So to prove that the murder was intentional it is not going to require the SA to prove it's case with an absolute or as some would say beyond the shadow of doubt. In fact a juror can have doubt's but when they use their own reasoning skills they have concluded that there is only one reasonable conclusion based on the totality of the evidence presented.

 

[nort]

I don't believe in the death penalty, but I disagree that the DP is too easy for Casey. This morning, a profiler on the Today show pointed out that the jail notes make clear that Casey is a manipulative psychopath who is happy as a pig in mud to be in jail. She said that Casey is fitting right in and that between her new fans, dating services for prisoners like Jail Babe (Susan Smith belongs to one) and all of the BFFs she will be making, Casey will adapt to prison just fine. I agree with the profiler. I also think that Casey deliberately killed Caylee. So i do I VERY much agree with Casey being in jail forever,even if she doesn't suffer. I don't think manipulative, psychopathic murderers need to be out among us.

I shuddered when I read the jail note from Casey about the hot-looking man who sent Casey a letter with a picture of his baby son.

Hopefully thats because in her own mind shes getting out, she thinks this is only temporary. I hate that she sounds so happy..

 

[nort]

I saw your post but when CA says Kc is an unfit mother that is exactly what she means, and considering how much she likes to cover up I consider that a most ominous comment. CA told her work colleagues she was considering taking action to get custody of Caylee. That is not something you do just to manipulate your daughter. That would result in a permanent split between them, and I am sure she gave it a lot of thought over the course of Caylee's life before she decided to do that. To consider Court Action she must have felt she had a very strong case against KC as an unfit parent. That's not something the Court does lightly.
What a shame she did not have time to follow through on her plan, Caylee would be alive today. If she told KC that's what she was going to do that is probably the reason she left with Caylee in such a hurry.... no money, nowhere to go. She had no future, as CA says on her Myspace page, but she had Caylee and she could use her absence to torture her mother.

Could be..

 

[LC446]

Maybe I am off base, but I would think for one to do an assessment that they would have to meet/speak with/know the individual being assessed. At least for me to believe it were a reliable assessment. I also just cant get past any of the "media types" who have inserted themselves into this case(or any case), and very rarely take any of them and/or their views as reliable(regardless of their opinion on guilt/innocence).

I wish Casey had seen a mental health professional, or, in the event that she has, I would like to know the view of that expert. This could open up some good avenues for real discussion on this topic we are engaged in "accident vs intentional". I personally feel (as you all now know) that this was an accident. As such, I wish an "expert" would weigh in on the possibility of Caysee "losing it" after finding Caylee deceased. It sure explains a lot for me in regards to her actions after her death. I agree with most that her actions were and are bizarre, but I am just not comfortable in the notion that she seriously took 31 days to think up this story. To me it is as though she has totally disassociated herself from the actual event(Caylees death). No matter her guilt or innnocence there is something totally off about that to me. I refuse to buy "she is evil" as the reasoning unfortunately.

BBM
You might have stated your position earlier and I might have missed it..I'm curious to know what you think happened to Caylee? In the bolded portion above, it just says "after finding Caylee deceased." How do you think Caylee came to be deceased? I am taking that to mean that Caylee died outside of KC's presence and then she just happened upon her. That might be an assumption on my part and so that is why I'm asking the question.

I do not think there was an accident. Her behavior after Caylee was missing was not consistent, in my opinion, with an accident. When your child is hurt or Heaven forbid, killed due to your negligence, a "normal" parent would react with concern, guilt, remorse. Those would all be normal reactions. In this case, KC NEVER displayed those emotions in reference to Caylee. She was flippant, dismissive and wanted the focus to be on her. She never cried about Caylee but she certainly cried when people mentioned her suffering. Her lack of emotion in reference to her missing child is what leads people to perceive her as "evil" and a psychopath.

 

[LambChop]

Duct taping a child's face IS an evil act.

 

[nort]

OT can someone tell me how to search for a past thread..

 

[nort]

Oh, that should be interesting given the fact that JB said his "experts" were not technically savy.

It should be..I think he may have had another reason for stating that something about a disk or getting to a web site. His motive there was questionable to me..

 

[marspiter]

OT can someone tell me how to search for a past thread..

Go to search at the top. Third over from the right and use the advanced search then just kind follow from there. lol kinda rough description but hope it helps.

 

[LinasK]

Actually all animals at times eat their young and/or dispose of them, for many different reasons.

I did not mean to suggest (and I am not sure that I did), that nature makes all mothers "good" mothers, nor would I dare suggest that nurture does either. I actually said there is an instinct to protect our young (in most cases).

I would not debate that nurture OR nature is void of relevance, as I personally feel that both are extremely relevant to the growth of an individual(call me a fence sitter lol). I was just trying to point out the fact that not "ALL CREDIBLE EVIDENCE" says nurture is the basis for mothering skills. I am sure many many "experts" on this subject would take issue with that comment was more my point. I only used my psych classes and time at university as an example of this, as I spent many many hours right in the middle of this very debate, not to make my opinion seem like the more relevant one.

Sorry for the confusion, I was just taken aback by that very bold, matter of fact, and in my opinion incorrect (and controversial statement).:angel:

But see, that is just what you seemed to be saying, that part of being a good mother is the instinct to protect your child. For most human females, that is true, but there are exceptions, and in this case I firmly believe Casey Anthony is one of those exceptions...
And keep in mind, Caylee was not a wanted child by Casey. She was an accidental pregnancy that Casey denied publically for 7 months, until it was too late to have an abortion, and Casey asked around about adopting her out. All the more reason to have no compunction about getting rid of her.

 

[Astraea]

Curiously then what can explain the raised levels of chloroform found and the computer searches found on the Anthony computer relating to chloroform?

I did not interpret the results as indicative of "raised levels of chloroform". There are many things that would explain this though if it were the case, including but not limited to the cleaning of the trunk.

As far as the computer searches go, I am sorry but I do not find them relevant at ALL. Common sense tells me that Casey did not MAKE chloroform (nor did she need to google shovel and neck breaking if she was planning on breaking her neck and digging a hole). If she did make chloroform (or the state even believed it), I would expect that the ingredients used would have been collected as evidence and presented by the state in the doc dumps. I dont think the state is even going to use that in court. Of course I very well may be wrong

 

[2goldfish]

I can not get past the fact that those pictures were released showing the heart sticker on the duct tape when it was NOT found there.

I have never seen a photo of that, have you a link please?


eta snipped by me, sorry

 

[Jolynna]

Maybe I am off base, but I would think for one to do an assessment that they would have to meet/speak with/know the individual being assessed. At least for me to believe it were a reliable assessment. I also just cant get past any of the "media types" who have inserted themselves into this case(or any case), and very rarely take any of them and/or their views as reliable(regardless of their opinion on guilt/innocence).

I wish Casey had seen a mental health professional, or, in the event that she has, I would like to know the view of that expert. This could open up some good avenues for real discussion on this topic we are engaged in "accident vs intentional". I personally feel (as you all now know) that this was an accident. As such, I wish an "expert" would weigh in on the possibility of Caysee "losing it" after finding Caylee deceased. It sure explains a lot for me in regards to her actions after her death. I agree with most that her actions were and are bizarre, but I am just not comfortable in the notion that she seriously took 31 days to think up this story. To me it is as though she has totally disassociated herself from the actual event(Caylees death). No matter her guilt or innnocence there is something totally off about that to me. I refuse to buy "she is evil" as the reasoning unfortunately.

In response to the statement I bolded, let's look at what Casey did.

Either before or just after Caylee's death, Casey put triple layers of duct tape over Caylee's mouth and nose. Even in your best case scenario of Casey doing it AFTER Caylee's death, Casey wasn't disassociated enough from her actions, which involved touching Caylee, to miss Caylee's airways. Casey got all 3 pieces of duct tape torn straight, even and untangled (not that easy) and put in the correct place to suffocate.

Casey, at some point, also managed to triple bag Caylee. She wasn't disassociated from Caylee's death or dead body then.

Before she ditched her Pontiac, Casey knew enough to throw three bags, that were shaped like Caylee in a fetal position, AWAY. She managed to get those bags far enough into the woods and brush that they couldn't be SEEN by those walking by. She also wiped up a stinky, coffin fly attracting substance onto paper towels and threw them into the trash in her trunk before June 27.

Casey knew enough NOT to come into the Anthony house while her family was IN it for 31 days. She wasn't so disassociated that she thought *that* would be a good thing to do. During the 31 days, Casey managed to plot out and finesse getting Cindy out of the house so she could sneak in , she made up "working in Tampa", "getting back together with Jeff", "being in Jacksonville" and "Jeff's mother's wedding"--all to her advantage.

Tiger Woods and Jesse James didn't think they were "working" when they visited their mistresses, no matter what they told their wives. I don't believe Casey thought she was "working" when she spent day after day, for over a year, talking & texting on her cell phone and watching her "stories" in the Anthony house. Nor do I believe Casey really thought Caylee was "visiting theme parks with Zanny", even though that is what Casey told people.

Even during the time Casey "ugly coped" with Tony and Fusian, she was fully able to triple bag Caylee's body, get the body out of her parent's house (out of her parent's sight), stuff the body into her car trunk (so Tony couldn't see it), get the body out of her car (according to her text to Amy her car smelled like something dead) and dispose of the body where it couldn't be seen.

All of Casey's actions and stories benefited Casey. I believe that shows she knew what was up.

 

[nort]

This is from one of KC's letter prior to them finding the remains:

"I’ve had to forgive what happened to my Caylee, but I’m still angry. If it weren’t for God, screw where I’m sitting now. If it weren’t for him and for my unconditional love for my daughter, I would end whoever is responsible. It’s not my battle. You want to know something, I know that Caylee’s nanny, the “real” Zenaida, the girl who was my friend for 4 years, I know in my heart that she’s not showing her face. Would you want to be sitting here with me for something you didn’t do?

It's not my battle, hummm. Another famous quote from KC on a jail video with Lee: JB says it, LE says it "I'm the only resource". Put that together with "It's not my battle" and what do you see. Exactly what we in fact have; a mother who refused to cooperate with LE and the FBI who tried to locate her child. Given the opportunity during questioning to admit there was an accident and that LE understands that sometimes accidents happen, she denied it, denied it. Then stated "That's my story and I'm sticking to it." Well, I guess KC is now stuck with it and it was her own undoing. Her wording in the quote above is very carefully picked out. "End whoever is responsible" not "kill/beat up/shoot, etc. whoever is responsible even if it meant spending the rest of my life in jail" which is what a normal person would say. If you love your daughter unconditionally why would you protect the nanny because that is exactly what she is saying she is doing. And last sentence if Nanny was the kidnapper/killer why would KC be sitting right along side her in jail??? Your expectation would be you would be released with at least time served for the child abuse charges.

Anyone is free to voice their opinion and have someone else counter with their opinion, we all share here. As far as comments about "just getting a rope" no one here would ever think of suggesting such a thing. KC has her own rope and she is doing a good job of it herself. JMO

That was my response about the rope..He's just jealous of websleuths..

 

[nort]

Go to search at the top. Third over from the right and use the advanced search then just kind follow from there. lol kinda rough description but hope it helps.

Worked great thank you...

 

[ZsaZsa]

Maybe I am off base, but I would think for one to do an assessment that they would have to meet/speak with/know the individual being assessed. At least for me to believe it were a reliable assessment. I also just cant get past any of the "media types" who have inserted themselves into this case(or any case), and very rarely take any of them and/or their views as reliable(regardless of their opinion on guilt/innocence).

I wish Casey had seen a mental health professional, or, in the event that she has, I would like to know the view of that expert. This could open up some good avenues for real discussion on this topic we are engaged in "accident vs intentional". I personally feel (as you all now know) that this was an accident. As such, I wish an "expert" would weigh in on the possibility of Caysee "losing it" after finding Caylee deceased. It sure explains a lot for me in regards to her actions after her death. I agree with most that her actions were and are bizarre, but I am just not comfortable in the notion that she seriously took 31 days to think up this story. To me it is as though she has totally disassociated herself from the actual event(Caylees death). No matter her guilt or innnocence there is something totally off about that to me. I refuse to buy "she is evil" as the reasoning unfortunately.

Casey has stated that she has never had a mental illness.
Her dissociation from her crime, as you described it, is because she has no conscience.
She is a Psychopath.

 

[Astraea]

2goldfish:

I have made a mistake I think. When I perused the photos I thought the sticker was on the tape (for the intended comparison). Now looking at them I see that it is not the tape. Now I am wondering what the sticker IS on in the photo. So many documents and photos in this case!!

ETA: Now I am even more confused...time for a breather after going through all those duct tape documents again. The sticker is on cardboard.