Accident or Intentional; Evidence and Debate(MERGED)

[marspiter]

I did not interpret the results as indicative of "raised levels of chloroform". There are many things that would explain this though if it were the case, including but not limited to the cleaning of the trunk.

As far as the computer searches go, I am sorry but I do not find them relevant at ALL. Common sense tells me that Casey did not MAKE chloroform (nor did she need to google shovel and neck breaking if she was planning on breaking her neck and digging a hole). If she did make chloroform (or the state even believed it), I would expect that the ingredients used would have been collected as evidence and presented by the state in the doc dumps. I dont think the state is even going to use that in court. Of course I very well may be wrong

So based on the fact that chloroform was found and that computer searches were made for chloroform on the A's computer the reasonable conclusion then is the computer searches are not relevant?

 

[Horace Finklestein]

Actually all animals at times eat their young and/or dispose of them, for many different reasons.

I did not mean to suggest (and I am not sure that I did), that nature makes all mothers "good" mothers, nor would I dare suggest that nurture does either. I actually said there is an instinct to protect our young (in most cases).

I would not debate that nurture OR nature is void of relevance, as I personally feel that both are extremely relevant to the growth of an individual(call me a fence sitter lol). I was just trying to point out the fact that not "ALL CREDIBLE EVIDENCE" says nurture is the basis for mothering skills. I am sure many many "experts" on this subject would take issue with that comment was more my point. I only used my psych classes and time at university as an example of this, as I spent many many hours right in the middle of this very debate, not to make my opinion seem like the more relevant one.

Sorry for the confusion, I was just taken aback by that very bold, matter of fact, and in my opinion incorrect (and controversial statement).:angel:

I based that commonly understood and accepted statement on the findings of sociologists and biologists. What people think of as instinct is learned behavior in human beings. It's widely accepted and there is nothing controversial about it if one thinks of 'instinct' in strict terms.

 

[coco puff]

The evidence does not point to an accident, nothing about her reactions is consistant with an accident. Her mother said that there was no accident. KC herself said that there was no accident.

Not in a million years will I believe there was an accident.

 

[LambChop]

That was my response about the rope..He's just jealous of websleuths..

Nah. Possibly he has never read anything from here and just is responding to what he is being told. Whether for or against we all sometimes present things to favor our point of view. There are some really good points that get presented on here. There are those that tend to think the worst without much evidence but it gets smoothed out in the end and that is what is important because eventually the truth does comes out. JMO

 

[LambChop]

What separates us from animals is our conscious. Read that somewhere. Dogs are the exception as many will try to save a human. Also some animals kill their young because there is something wrong with the offspring. If it was a bear and she has two cubs, one being sick my guess is she will kill off the sick one to make sure the well one survives. I know wild cats will do that. JMO

 

[LambChop]

So based on the fact that chloroform was found and that computer searches were made for chloroform on the A's computer the reasonable conclusion then is the computer searches are not relevant?

I may be wrong but didn't LE also remove containers from the household that could have been used to mix chemicals. Not sure if that was on the news or I read it here. Anyone remember that? Certainly anything found in the home containing traces of chloroform would absolutely rule out accident. JMO

 

[ZsaZsa]

If I am correct. The evidence in this case has never ever pointed to Casey drugging Caylee. Unless of course you are relying on the testimony of RA nd MD, which I personally do not believe for one second!

I also have yet to read a psych assesment of Casey stating that she is a narcissist.

Her Psych evaluation was performed at the Jail and is sealed, so you will not be able to read it until trial.

 

[ZsaZsa]

Actually all animals at times eat their young and/or dispose of them, for many different reasons.

I did not mean to suggest (and I am not sure that I did), that nature makes all mothers "good" mothers, nor would I dare suggest that nurture does either. I actually said there is an instinct to protect our young (in most cases).

I would not debate that nurture OR nature is void of relevance, as I personally feel that both are extremely relevant to the growth of an individual(call me a fence sitter lol). I was just trying to point out the fact that not "ALL CREDIBLE EVIDENCE" says nurture is the basis for mothering skills. I am sure many many "experts" on this subject would take issue with that comment was more my point. I only used my psych classes and time at university as an example of this, as I spent many many hours right in the middle of this very debate, not to make my opinion seem like the more relevant one.

Sorry for the confusion, I was just taken aback by that very bold, matter of fact, and in my opinion incorrect (and controversial statement).:angel:

At our Zoo a baby Gorilla had one of its legs bitten off last week, by its Father; a case of jealousy within the family apparently. They are a lot like humans aren't they?


Edited- I don't know how I ended up in Aestra' s post.... duh
Not where it was intended. Oh well

 

[Astraea]

I based that commonly understood and accepted statement on the findings of sociologists and biologists. What people think of as instinct is learned behavior in human beings. It's widely accepted and there is nothing controversial about it if one thinks of 'instinct' in strict terms.

I am sure you personally believe the BBM, but you are very wrong when including the entire scientific community that spends their life researching and writing on this very topic. If this debate had been laid to rest many of us would be out of work. We are also way off topic at this point and I dont want to get in trouble (nor am I here to debate nature vs nurture lol).

I will reword it by saying that: I personally believe from viewing the interviews and transcripts and writings of the members of this family that Shirleys priority is Cindy. Much the same as Cindys priority is Casey.

 

[LambChop]

Her Psych evaluation was performed at the Jail and is sealed, so you will not be able to read it until trial.

And I believe she had more than one exam. In the jailhouse video I believe she refers to doctors right before CA said "We forgive you for what you said".

 

[ZsaZsa]

And I believe she had more than one exam. In the jailhouse video I believe she refers to doctors right before CA said "We forgive you for what you said".

Yes, and I have seen stated on TV several times that they found her free of any mental illness.
It might have been on NG which you can take FWIW but I tend to believe what she says, and that agrees with what I think, so.....

 

[Astraea]

I may be wrong but didn't LE also remove containers from the household that could have been used to mix chemicals. Not sure if that was on the news or I read it here. Anyone remember that? Certainly anything found in the home containing traces of chloroform would absolutely rule out accident. JMO

I was just going through documents again(head spinning), and I know they requested these things in the warrant for the As home. I have yet to see which things they actually collected. I would think if they had found evidence of Casey making chloroform, we would have heard ALOT about it by now! jmo

I honestly believe that the chloroform issue is irrelevant. I also think it is only being talked about so much because people went into a frenzy after the first doc dump showing the computer searches, and just cant let it go. IF she had chloroformed her I would let go of my belief in it being an accident. I dont believe she did, nor does any of the evidence shown thus far lead me in that direction.

ETA: "yet to see" as in right now, which feels like one too many times sifting through this mess of docs!

O/T Everytime I get into the documents in this case(mixed in with all the new stories,blogs,posts,etc) I start feeling like I am going cuckoo...that much is a FACT!

 

[ZsaZsa]

I was just going through documents again(head spinning), and I know they requested these things in the warrant for the As home. I have yet to see which things they actually collected. I would think if they had found evidence of Casey making chloroform, we would have heard ALOT about it by now! jmo

I honestly believe that the chloroform issue is irrelevant. I also think it is only being talked about so much because people went into a frenzy after the first doc dump showing the computer searches, and just cant let it go. IF she had chloroformed her I would let go of my belief in it being an accident. I dont believe she did, nor does any of the evidence shown thus far lead me in that direction.

O/T Everytime I get into the documents in this case(mixed in with all the new stories,blogs,posts,etc) I start feeling like I am going cuckoo...that much is a FACT!

If they found Chloroform or equipment used in making it I do not think they would have released that evidence yet- wouldn't it be considered 'Prejudicial'? Some other evidence has been withheld from the public for that very reason.

 

[LambChop]

Snipped

I will reword it by saying that: I personally believe from viewing the interviews and transcripts and writings of the members of this family that Shirleys priority is Cindy. Much the same as Cindys priority is Casey.

And do you see where KC priority was Caylee? I'm curious and would like to know. With statements like "It's not my battle", "Caylee, Caylee, that's all everyone cares about is Caylee", "Jesse loved Caylee more than me" to RA "Let's get pregnant together", "Let take off in the RV and tour the country" plus written conversations about what she plans to do with her new friend when she gets out but no mention of Caylee. Running off to Costa Rica. When she writes to RA about her plans (from the beginning) she sounds like a happy to be single and free girl. There is a lot in those letters and I guarantee you they will be disected by most experts before the trial. KC sounds happy to have a 3 year old out of her life. Certainly not someone who sounds concerned about her child or is grieving from her death. This is what I see.

My mother-in-law, when she lost an infant, was a zombie for over a year. You never get over something like that. I see no grief in KC at all, nothing, just a hollow shell of a person. JMO

 

[countzero]

KC does NOT exhibit nor has she been diagnosed with any mental deficiencies that prevents her, CA, GA or LA from knowing wrong from right in any legal meaning.

JB, with his clients permission, would have that bit of info printed in the USA Today, go on a full blown media blitz to every national and local media outlet stating this if there was any.

Sheeze, if KC was innocent, JB would have done this immediately. The fact that JB hasn't made any statement, submitted ANY type of discovery that it was an accident or verified proof that KC was not involved in Caylee's murder in any way, shape or form in close to two years speaks volumes more.

By legal standards as I understand them, KC is innocent until proven guilty and it is up to the SAs office to produce evidence of her guilt. That I get. What I don't get is JB's proclamation of KCs innocence yet she still sits in jail, adapting very well I might add.

I have read most if not all the SA's released evidence. I have spent hours reading. I have subjected myself to CA and GA's depos. My family has endured more crock pot dinners than I can count. My clothes have sat in the dryer for days. Even being snowed in under 33 inches of snow for weeks didn't deter me from reading.

Still waiting to read anything of substance (motions poorly written don't count) that JB releases. I will probably add more gray hairs while waiting, and waiting, and waiting .......... Baseball World Series will come and go (Go Tigers), Nascar will have run 36 races, the Super Bowl playoffs will have been played and March Madness will be over by the time we get to see any real meaningful evidence from JB.

 

[Astraea]

And do you see where KC priority was Caylee? I'm curious and would like to know. With statements like "It's not my battle", "Caylee, Caylee, that's all everyone cares about is Caylee", "Jesse loved Caylee more than me" to RA "Let's get pregnant together", "Let take off in the RV and tour the country" plus written conversations about what she plans to do with her new friend when she gets out but no mention of Caylee. Running off to Costa Rica. When she writes to RA about her plans (from the beginning) she sounds like a happy to be single and free girl. There is a lot in those letters and I guarantee you they will be disected by most experts before the trial. KC sounds happy to have a 3 year old out of her life. Certainly not someone who sounds concerned about her child or is grieving from her death. This is what I see.

My mother-in-law, when she lost an infant, was a zombie for over a year. You never get over something like that. I see no grief in KC at all, nothing, just a hollow shell of a person. JMO

I was only tryng to clarify my reference to Shirley. I did not state that Caseys priority was Caylee, although I do believe in her immature way it was. She could have easily put her up for adoption, left her with Cindy etc etc..

I did not find her writings indicative of a happy and carefree girl, I found them to be pretty on par with an inmate in protective custody writing to another inmate whom she barely knew.

I have also lost and grieved heavily for my child (I always will), but I can not judge Casey based on my manner of grieving. If so, I would state that because I have a tattoo in honour of my child, that her tattoo is also indicative of heavy grief for her child (this was the reason for mine).

I also do not know how I would react if my child had died due to my neglect after being told by my Mother I was unfit. This may change my grief process, as would being locked up in protective custody for months I assume.

I also spent(and spend) a LOT of time hiding my grief, and my child died through absolutely NO fault of my own (though as women we always carry the if I had or if I had nots....). I would NOT expect any woman to display her grief publicly, or to a stranger for that matter. More often then not I find women do a wonderful job of covering their grief, although as a society we seem to find that strange. JMO

 

[ZsaZsa]

I was just going through documents again(head spinning), and I know they requested these things in the warrant for the As home. I have yet to see which things they actually collected. I would think if they had found evidence of Casey making chloroform, we would have heard ALOT about it by now! jmo

I honestly believe that the chloroform issue is irrelevant. I also think it is only being talked about so much because people went into a frenzy after the first doc dump showing the computer searches, and just cant let it go. IF she had chloroformed her I would let go of my belief in it being an accident. I dont believe she did, nor does any of the evidence shown thus far lead me in that direction.

ETA: "yet to see" as in right now, which feels like one too many times sifting through this mess of docs!

O/T Everytime I get into the documents in this case(mixed in with all the new stories,blogs,posts,etc) I start feeling like I am going cuckoo...that much is a FACT!

While you're re reading, take a look at the case of Fla vs Huck - page 13
http://www.denverda.org/DNA_Documents/Huck.pdf

Taping a persons mouth after death was not found to be a reasonable argument. The only logical reason for taping the mouth shut would be to prevent her from talking, screaming for help or breathing while she was alive.
There was no accident in the placement of 3 pieces of duct tape over a child's mouth and nose.

 

[Astraea]

While you're re reading, take a look at the case of Fla vs Huck - page 13
http://www.denverda.org/DNA_Documents/Huck.pdf

Taping a persons mouth after death was not found to be a reasonable argument. The only logical reason for taping the mouth shut would be to prevent her from talking, screaming for help or breathing while she was alive.
There was no accident in the placement of 3 pieces of duct tape over a child's mouth and nose.

I am not sure this case will ever be used as precedent during this trial, as I dont foresee the defense actually SAYING that Caylees death was an accident. I personally feel it was though.

But thanks for the extra reading material lol

 

[ZsaZsa]

I was only tryng to clarify my reference to Shirley. I did not state that Caseys priority was Caylee, although I do believe in her immature way it was. She could have easily put her up for adoption, left her with Cindy etc etc..

I did not find her writings indicative of a happy and carefree girl, I found them to be pretty on par with an inmate in protective custody writing to another inmate whom she barely knew.

I have also lost and grieved heavily for my child (I always will), but I can not judge Casey based on my manner of grieving. If so, I would state that because I have a tattoo in honour of my child, that her tattoo is also indicative of heavy grief for her child (this was the reason for mine).

I also do not know how I would react if my child had died due to my neglect after being told by my Mother I was unfit. This may change my grief process, as would being locked up in protective custody for months I assume.

I also spent(and spend) a LOT of time hiding my grief, and my child died through absolutely NO fault of my own (though as women we always carry the if I had or if I had nots....). I would NOT expect any woman to display her grief publicly, or to a stranger for that matter. More often then not I find women do a wonderful job of covering their grief, although as a society we seem to find that strange. JMO

How many grieving mothers get tattoos that celebrate their new life? Does Bella Vita sound appropriate for someone who is in mourning?
Roughly how many women who have lost children go out to Blockbuster on the day of their death do you suppose? How many do not even mention the child to their family, except to lie about the child's whereabouts. How many do not mention it to the man they are in love with? Only someone with absolutely no feeling for the child. The only feeling she had was relief that Caylee was dead.

 

[ZsaZsa]

I am not sure this case will ever be used as precedent during this trial, as I dont foresee the defense actually SAYING that Caylees death was an accident. I personally feel it was though.

But thanks for the extra reading material lol

Could you please explain how you believe 3 pieces of duct tape applied across the mouth and nose, knowing that it will obstruct breathing and cause death could be accidental?