Accident or Intentional; Evidence and Debate(MERGED)

[ohiogirl]

What about the evidence we have seen so far leaves you with doubts?

I am not sure about the duct tape. I don't know what will finally convince me, haven't found it yet, I guess.

 

[Astraea]

I wrote at the very beginning of this "debate" what my reasons were for accident. Not much point in reiterating each of them.

None of the evidence provided thus far tells me that she KILLED Caylee. If anything, I have been left with the feeling that the SA is trying anything and everything to make it seem so, and they still havent been able to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.

If they are hinging their entire case on duct tape, I personally believe they are in for a real problem. I can not get past the fact that those pictures were released showing the heart sticker on the duct tape when it was NOT found there. As a juror I would be wondering WHY they did such a thing! The duct tape evidence does NOT solidfy INTENT for me anyway, personally. This is just one example of something I take issue with in regards to the evidence that has been released thus far. If I were going to send someone to death, the words "beyond a reasonable doubt" would be first and foremost in my mind. I have no doubt she has lied about things. I have no doubt that she at times found parenting as a young single Mother difficult. I have no doubt she has continued to "cover up" certain acts or omissions" I have NO doubt about a lot of things to do with this case. Unfortunately I DO hvae doubt that she intentionally set out to kill her.

To be honest as this case continues I begin to feel more and more that the state is way off base. Each thing they use as "proof" becomes void when they release the next set of documents (chloroform/neck breaking/trunk evidence...none of it has shown to be relevant tot his case as fact).

Not to mention the manner of questioning with most witnesses. As an outsider comparing transcripts and videos of interviews, with the supplementaries by Yuri and others, I can honestly say that I feel they have twisted things in an attempt to make it fit their case. One example of this is the latest release of docs/supps in regards to RA/MD/CB/KH/CA. The interviews and transcripts are not the same info that I read in the police supplementaries JMO

IF Casey is guilty of premediated murder, they should not need to change the manner in which things were stated to them, ask leading questions, cut witnesses off in their testimony etc.. It is one thing to prove your case, and it is another to completely disregard anything that doesnt help it. After all, isnt this what all of us would expect from those investigating, regardless of our feelings towards the accused.

NTS: Congrats(I think) on the 1000 posts...I am beginning to feel I will get there in this thread alone lol! Sorry for all the responses in a row !

I still firmly believe that this was NOT an intentional act of murder by Casey. I do believe she is sticking with her story for many reasons, but not because SHE intentionally murdered her daughter.

As always it is just my opinion based on all that I have read, watched, and discussed about this case and the evidence, or lack thereof, since Caylee was first reported missing.

 

[Swancat63]

I am not sure about the duct tape. I don't know what will finally convince me, haven't found it yet, I guess.

Do you mean like before or after death, when it was used? Or who used it? Or why it was used? I had those questions at first.

 

[ohiogirl]

Too bad we can't Flash Foward a year from now.

 

[ohiogirl]

Do you mean like before or after death, when it was used? Or why it was used? I had those questions at first.

Yes. When and why.

 

[ohiogirl]

Sorry, Swancat, gotta go for now. Back tomorrow.

 

[Astraea]

From the other thread...
And yet, even though I'm not a sociology, law, or poly sci grad, I can name two example off the top of my head of animal species where the mothers eat their young, and the young cannot be placed with adults of the species until they have matured: 1)polar bears, and 2) chickens. So, as far as the argument that being a good mother is nature/instinctual vs. nurture, I beg to differ. Some animals receive training from surrogates of their same species by animal trainers in zoos to teach them how to be good mothers.
Being able to have a child (fertility) does not endow you automatically with the ability to be a good mother or bond with your child. Otherwise, how do you explain other mothers that have intentionally killed their children: Susan Smith, Diane Downs, Andrea Yates???

Actually all animals at times eat their young and/or dispose of them, for many different reasons.

I did not mean to suggest (and I am not sure that I did), that nature makes all mothers "good" mothers, nor would I dare suggest that nurture does either. I actually said there is an instinct to protect our young (in most cases).

I would not debate that nurture OR nature is void of relevance, as I personally feel that both are extremely relevant to the growth of an individual(call me a fence sitter lol). I was just trying to point out the fact that not "ALL CREDIBLE EVIDENCE" says nurture is the basis for mothering skills. I am sure many many "experts" on this subject would take issue with that comment was more my point. I only used my psych classes and time at university as an example of this, as I spent many many hours right in the middle of this very debate, not to make my opinion seem like the more relevant one.

Sorry for the confusion, I was just taken aback by that very bold, matter of fact, and in my opinion incorrect (and controversial statement).:angel:

 

[Astraea]

Good mothers do not give their children drugs to go to sleep so they can party. They get a babysitter!

Narcisists do not love anyone but themselves. They are first all the time, every time...JMHO

If I am correct. The evidence in this case has never ever pointed to Casey drugging Caylee. Unless of course you are relying on the testimony of RA nd MD, which I personally do not believe for one second!

I also have yet to read a psych assesment of Casey stating that she is a narcissist.

 

[LambChop]

If I am correct. The evidence in this case has never ever pointed to Casey drugging Caylee. Unless of course you are relying on the testimony of RA nd MD, which I personally do not believe for one second!

I also have yet to read a psych assesment of Casey stating that she is a narcissist.

If you check out today's news thread you will find an assessment from Pat Brown on the Today's show. Very interesting.

 

[Swancat63]

I'm sorry but I don't and never will buy the fact that these women didn't know right from wrong. After the fact, they lie or blame someone for their actions. The conscious act of lying or placing blame is a sign that they knew! They just chose to think of themselves before the children. I don't think we as humans have to be taught not to hurt, poison, neglect or kill our children. Maybe that's just me. Selfishness is learned, and some people CHOOSE themself over their children. Just excuses, JMHO

 

[marspiter]

I wrote at the very beginning of this "debate" what my reasons were for accident. Not much point in reiterating each of them.

None of the evidence provided thus far tells me that she KILLED Caylee. If anything, I have been left with the feeling that the SA is trying anything and everything to make it seem so, and they still havent been able to prove it beyond a reasonable doubt.

If they are hinging their entire case on duct tape, I personally believe they are in for a real problem. I can not get past the fact that those pictures were released showing the heart sticker on the duct tape when it was NOT found there. As a juror I would be wondering WHY they did such a thing! The duct tape evidence does NOT solidfy INTENT for me anyway, personally. This is just one example of something I take issue with in regards to the evidence that has been released thus far. If I were going to send someone to death, the words "beyond a reasonable doubt" would be first and foremost in my mind. I have no doubt she has lied about things. I have no doubt that she at times found parenting as a young single Mother difficult. I have no doubt she has continued to "cover up" certain acts or omissions" I have NO doubt about a lot of things to do with this case. Unfortunately I DO hvae doubt that she intentionally set out to kill her.

To be honest as this case continues I begin to feel more and more that the state is way off base. Each thing they use as "proof" becomes void when they release the next set of documents (chloroform/neck breaking/trunk evidence...none of it has shown to be relevant tot his case as fact).

Not to mention the manner of questioning with most witnesses. As an outsider comparing transcripts and videos of interviews, with the supplementaries by Yuri and others, I can honestly say that I feel they have twisted things in an attempt to make it fit their case. One example of this is the latest release of docs/supps in regards to RA/MD/CB/KH/CA. The interviews and transcripts are not the same info that I read in the police supplementaries JMO

IF Casey is guilty of premediated murder, they should not need to change the manner in which things were stated to them, ask leading questions, cut witnesses off in their testimony etc.. It is one thing to prove your case, and it is another to completely disregard anything that doesnt help it. After all, isnt this what all of us would expect from those investigating, regardless of our feelings towards the accused.

NTS: Congrats(I think) on the 1000 posts...I am beginning to feel I will get there in this thread alone lol! Sorry for all the responses in a row !

I still firmly believe that this was NOT an intentional act of murder by Casey. I do believe she is sticking with her story for many reasons, but not because SHE intentionally murdered her daughter.

As always it is just my opinion based on all that I have read, watched, and discussed about this case and the evidence, or lack thereof, since Caylee was first reported missing.

So my question would be how did Caylee die if it was an accident? What is the evidence that supports an accident happened that caused Caylee's death and also explains all the other evidence and circumstances in this case.....including the fact that the defense has never pursued an accident theory. In fact the DP lawyer that suggested it was.... shall we say no longer on the defense.

See the tricky thing with reasonable doubt is that the jury is going to be able to use their own cognitive skills to determine what is reasonable. To me that's the key term.....reasonable. Is it reasonable for someone to place duct tape on a child's face after they are dead? The Florida supreme court certainly doesn't think so with the Huck ruling. Is it reasonable that someone whom no one in the family can identify or met, but they claim exsisted have access to their home and personal belongs and also did searches on their home computer, and had access to take Caylee right out from Casey's nose?

See that's the trick with the word reasonable..the explanation has to be something that's with in reason when one compares the evidence in the case. If not people could just say the Chupacabre did it as an example. Personally myself since this is not a court of law and does not contain the same standards as a court of law. I would personally like to see evidence that shows Casey is innocent or that there was an accident. From looking at the evidence I have seen there seems to be only one reasonable conclusion in my mind. Is there any evidence that raises doubts that it was Casey that killed Caylee? I certainly haven't seen any.

 

[Astraea]

From the other thread...
, I can name two example off the top of my head of animal species where the mothers eat their young, and the young cannot be placed with adults of the species until they have matured: 1)polar bears, and 2) chickens.

*snipped*

I had to come back to this I am sorry

1) I am wondering if you mean polar bears in CAPTIVITY and/or the males in the species. This just makes no sense seeing as we have polar bears still roaming around the wild.

2) I am just lost with the chickens as I raise chickens and have never seen my hens eat their young.

Sorry for the O/T I just had to add that on. I hereby promise to answer a post in one post and to TRY my hardest to stay on topic when we are already sort of off topic. Sheesh I dont know how we can stay totally on topic when there is so many sub topics lol!!

 

[nort]

From the other thread...
, I can name two example off the top of my head of animal species where the mothers eat their young, and the young cannot be placed with adults of the species until they have matured: 1)polar bears, and 2) chickens.

*snipped*

I had to come back to this I am sorry

1) I am wondering if you mean polar bears in CAPTIVITY and/or the males in the species. This just makes no sense seeing as we have polar bears still roaming around the wild.

2) I am just lost with the chickens as I raise chickens and have never seen my hens eat their young.

Sorry for the O/T I just had to add that on. I hereby promise to answer a post in one post and to TRY my hardest to stay on topic when we are already sort of off topic. Sheesh I dont know how we can stay totally on topic when there is so many sub topics lol!!

They are only really old polar bears left:floorlaugh:...

 

[LinasK]

*snipped*

I had to come back to this I am sorry

1) I am wondering if you mean polar bears in CAPTIVITY and/or the males in the species. This just makes no sense seeing as we have polar bears still roaming around the wild.

2) I am just lost with the chickens as I raise chickens and have never seen my hens eat their young.

Sorry for the O/T I just had to add that on. I hereby promise to answer a post in one post and to TRY my hardest to stay on topic when we are already sort of off topic. Sheesh I dont know how we can stay totally on topic when there is so many sub topics lol!!

Re: the polars bears- was I show I watched on Discovery channel a few months ago on a male polar bear cub taken into captivity because his mother had been shot in the wild. Can't remember the name of the show- Found it!- "Growing Up Polar Bear". I think Panda bears also eat their young...
Re: chickens is someone I know who is raising chickens in her back yard, and just recently about 3 weeks ago purchased some baby chicks from the feed store. Now that she's moved them to the backyard, the adults are still trying to attack the youngsters.

 

[Astraea]

If you check out today's news thread you will find an assessment from Pat Brown on the Today's show. Very interesting.

Maybe I am off base, but I would think for one to do an assessment that they would have to meet/speak with/know the individual being assessed. At least for me to believe it were a reliable assessment. I also just cant get past any of the "media types" who have inserted themselves into this case(or any case), and very rarely take any of them and/or their views as reliable(regardless of their opinion on guilt/innocence).

I wish Casey had seen a mental health professional, or, in the event that she has, I would like to know the view of that expert. This could open up some good avenues for real discussion on this topic we are engaged in "accident vs intentional". I personally feel (as you all now know) that this was an accident. As such, I wish an "expert" would weigh in on the possibility of Caysee "losing it" after finding Caylee deceased. It sure explains a lot for me in regards to her actions after her death. I agree with most that her actions were and are bizarre, but I am just not comfortable in the notion that she seriously took 31 days to think up this story. To me it is as though she has totally disassociated herself from the actual event(Caylees death). No matter her guilt or innnocence there is something totally off about that to me. I refuse to buy "she is evil" as the reasoning unfortunately.

 

[marspiter]

If I am correct. The evidence in this case has never ever pointed to Casey drugging Caylee. Unless of course you are relying on the testimony of RA nd MD, which I personally do not believe for one second!

I also have yet to read a psych assesment of Casey stating that she is a narcissist.

Curiously then what can explain the raised levels of chloroform found and the computer searches found on the Anthony computer relating to chloroform?

 

[Jolynna]

I don't want her to die, I want her to spend the rest of her sorry life behind bars with NO CHANCE FOR PAROLE! The DP is too easy, not enough suffering, IMO. I want her to know the things she's missing out on. I want her to feel the heartache of not being loved, never to be married, never to have another child..I think a LWOP would be the best for this party hearty gal..JMHO

Justice for Caylee

I don't believe in the death penalty, but I disagree that the DP is too easy for Casey. This morning, a profiler on the Today show pointed out that the jail notes make clear that Casey is a manipulative psychopath who is happy as a pig in mud to be in jail. She said that Casey is fitting right in and that between her new fans, dating services for prisoners like Jail Babe (Susan Smith belongs to one) and all of the BFFs she will be making, Casey will adapt to prison just fine. I agree with the profiler. I also think that Casey deliberately killed Caylee. So i do I VERY much agree with Casey being in jail forever,even if she doesn't suffer. I don't think manipulative, psychopathic murderers need to be out among us.

I shuddered when I read the jail note from Casey about the hot-looking man who sent Casey a letter with a picture of his baby son.

 

[LambChop]

This is from one of KC's letter prior to them finding the remains:

"I’ve had to forgive what happened to my Caylee, but I’m still angry. If it weren’t for God, screw where I’m sitting now. If it weren’t for him and for my unconditional love for my daughter, I would end whoever is responsible. It’s not my battle. You want to know something, I know that Caylee’s nanny, the “real” Zenaida, the girl who was my friend for 4 years, I know in my heart that she’s not showing her face. Would you want to be sitting here with me for something you didn’t do?

It's not my battle, hummm. Another famous quote from KC on a jail video with Lee: JB says it, LE says it "I'm the only resource". Put that together with "It's not my battle" and what do you see. Exactly what we in fact have; a mother who refused to cooperate with LE and the FBI who tried to locate her child. Given the opportunity during questioning to admit there was an accident and that LE understands that sometimes accidents happen, she denied it, denied it. Then stated "That's my story and I'm sticking to it." Well, I guess KC is now stuck with it and it was her own undoing. Her wording in the quote above is very carefully picked out. "End whoever is responsible" not "kill/beat up/shoot, etc. whoever is responsible even if it meant spending the rest of my life in jail" which is what a normal person would say. If you love your daughter unconditionally why would you protect the nanny because that is exactly what she is saying she is doing. And last sentence if Nanny was the kidnapper/killer why would KC be sitting right along side her in jail??? Your expectation would be you would be released with at least time served for the child abuse charges.

Anyone is free to voice their opinion and have someone else counter with their opinion, we all share here. As far as comments about "just getting a rope" no one here would ever think of suggesting such a thing. KC has her own rope and she is doing a good job of it herself. JMO

 

[nort]

Curiously then what can explain the raised levels of chloroform found and the computer searches found on the Anthony computer relating to chloroform?

We will probably hear what the defense has to say about it when the trial begins, it will be interesting to see how they defend that. Just because we cant does not mean its impossible or that someone else might be able to.

 

[coco puff]

What actions from KC were consistant with an accident?

Did she freak out? No, she went to blockbuster
Did she call 911? No, she called her boyfriend for a date
Did she tell anyone? No not anyone that exists outside of her own mind
Did she withdraw emotionally. No, she still laughed and partied
Did she mope or sulk or seem to miss her daughter at all? No, she even pretented to get a call from her dead daughter.
Did she gaze at her pictures for hours? No she deleted dozens of them from her Myspace account.
Did she tell the truth about Caylee's last hours? No, not once.
Did she get any oportunity to tell LE about the accident? Yes
Did she insist that there was NO accident? Yes