Accident or Intentional; Evidence and Debate(MERGED)

[BlOnDe_GuRrL]

bumping this so it can be seen by all again.
this is brilliant! i hope it is mentioned at trial!

I heard JB seem to characterize the "flurry of calls" on 6/16 around 4pm as ICA "reaching out for help" because of a potential accident. I disagree. Google maps say it should take 20 min to drive from CA/GA's house to TL's house. The pings show that by 4:18 she's already well on her way there. These calls began as she was leaving the house!! This means she wasn't standing around calling people asking what to do about Caylee. Wherever she put Caylee prior to leaving, whether it was the sandbox, playhouse, trunk, etc....she had already done that, and grabbed her purse, keys, laptop, cellphone, etc. Granted there is some ambiguity about location re: pings as you can be within a few miles of the tower. Still it would seem the absolute latest she could have pulled out of her driveway would have been around 4:15 to ping at that next tower at 4:18. She starts her flurry of calls at 4:10.

Link to 6/16 ping map: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=e...8592,-81.309128&spn=0.265966,0.43396&t=h&z=11

For clarity, the "flurry" of calls:

4:10pm - Call to George at work - 34 seconds

4:11 to 4:13 - Casey attempts to phone Cindy four times.

4:14 - Call to George - 98 seconds

4:18 - Cell phone pings show she departed from the A's or that area and is near Chickasaw - up until this time all pings were at towers near the Anthony home

4:18 - text from Tony

4:19 - One minute call to Tony.

4:21 - Two calls to Jesse. Second call 75 seconds.

4:25 - Another attempt to call Cindy

 

[concentric]

I don't know what thread to post this to, so Mods please adjust if necessary. However, I think it's a very important thing to consider:

While researching on the computer the case of Dru Sjodin, years ago, I entered the phrase: breakthroughs in forensic science.

This is where I learned about: Brain Fingerprinting.

This is roughly what I know about it:

Electrodes are attached to an accused or convicted person's head (brain) and images of evidence that only the person committing the crime and investigators would know about are shown to the accused or convicted person. The electrical impulses in response to seeing those images can be read to determine if that person committed the crime.

[ame="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_fingerprinting"]Brain fingerprinting - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia@@AMEPARAM@@/wiki/File:BrainFingerprintingFarwellHarringtonTest2.jpg" class="image"><img alt="" src="http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cb/BrainFingerprintingFarwellHarringtonTest2.jpg/220px-BrainFingerprintingFarwellHarringtonTest2.jpg"@@AMEPARAM@@commons/thumb/c/cb/BrainFingerprintingFarwellHarringtonTest2.jpg/220px-BrainFingerprintingFarwellHarringtonTest2.jpg[/ame]

In 2004 it was ruled admissable in court.

Since this is a high-profile case, has Brain Fingerprinting been done on the defendant?

(I posted about this on this case a couple of years ago)

 

[DairyGirl]

missdiva, your question is one that bothers me as well. there are photos of casey breastfeeding caylee. as a breastfeeding mom, i don't even *begin* to understand the pathway from making an obviously nurturing choice to murder. i too have wondered so many times if this could have been an accident and she was just too sociopathic to even begin to understand how to deal with it appropriately.

remember that we have never really seen her in a psychotic rage. many people who met my dad believed he was the kindest, sweetest, most charming man, and probably believed he was a great parent. but he saved those rages for us. i guess if you're a rageful narcissist, it's easy to bully your child because they have no choice but to love you anyway. casey reminds me a lot like my dad, and i just believe we can't judge her as being a loving mom incapable of premeditated murder simply because she's a mom with tons of pictures of a happy caylee. my dad loved us, bought us everything we could possibly want, and we have so many happy family pictures... many people had no idea, would've never suspected it. just because she seems like one of those people you wouldn't suspect doesn't mean she isn't capable of all kinds of terrible things out of the eyes of her community.

the heart sticker over the duct tape is the hardest for me to stomach. that is flat-out sinister.

my opinion is that casey had a hard time bonding w/caylee from the beginning. she didn't announce the pregnancy till it was nearly over (although at 7 months it is easy to feel that pregnancy will NEVER be over... lol). she was not happy about caylee being handed to cindy after the birth or "mom"-ing her at a birthday party. i find it very likely that she, as a sociopath unable to bond, blamed her mother for this lack of a bond, one that her mother makes clear she has with her children.

i don't think she really figured out wtf to do with the pregnancy and the baby, and right after having a baby life kind of just... HAPPENS. you realize how little control you have, and often you spend the entire day just taking care of baby's needs and trying to keep up with your own. caylee as a baby must have been very rewarding and fun once she started smiling - like a baby doll to casey, whose mom was there for all the difficult times completely prepared to give the child her love, time, and energy. and she was a trophy, and people complimented her parenting skills, marveled/sympathized with the young single mom trying so hard, etc.

but then i think the rollercoaster of new mom-hood kinda slowed and the ways in which she had folded caylee into her life were no longer as easy to manage. she turned from this adorable trophy baby into a walking, talking kid who just GOT IN THE WAY. and almost-3 is not an easy age. (even those of us who are bonded VERY well with their children & are terrific parents can feel driven up the wall at that age. :innocent they give you way more attitude. they have their own ideas and plans and don't necessarily like yours. they're harder to distract because they remember things more easily. they figure out what your buttons are and push them because they are learning how to test boundaries, and the best way to test limits is to push them repeatedly. they are just discovering emotion & how to express emotions and are extremely melodramatic. even the most amazing parents i've known have difficulty with the toddler stage. they can be a lot more trying at that age, and you need a lot of love and patience to help guide them through it.

since most of us are normal people with the ability to bond, we're able to get through the difficult times and get back to the rewarding times, hopefully teaching our children lessons about safely expressing emotions and how to communicate with the people around them. but for casey, i think caylee stopped being all cute and cuddly, she started becoming more and more of a problem and needed more advanced parenting beyond feed/change/put to bed, and casey really didn't find it rewarding or worth her time anymore. it was getting in the way of the life she wanted. and it wasn't worth it to her to cede guardianship to her mother and basically say "you won, you were right, here she is."

it is hard to believe that anyone could be like that, especially a mother killing her child that at some point you want to believe she loved and cherished, somehow. but unfortunately people are like that. for casey, people's lives aren't meaningful to her except for what they provide for her. she thinks that she's bad- enough to cover up the murder of her child she assumed no one else really cares about since she didn't. IMO even now she has this demeanor like "WHY are you guys still ON this? i am so over this already!"



ITA with this.

I believe it was Pat Brown who was talking about this and basically said that KC kind of viewed Caylee like you would a pet and once the pet isn't cute and cuddly any more she put it down like you would put down a dog, placing her where she placed all her other pets. She put a heart sticker on her as some kind of good bye and moved on with her life as easily as if she had just put down a dog.

 

[concentric]

I believe it was Pat Brown who was talking about this and basically said that KC kind of viewed Caylee like you would a pet and once the pet isn't cute and cuddly any more she put it down like you would put down a dog, placing her where she placed all her other pets. She put a heart sticker on her as some kind of good bye and moved on with her life as easily as if she had just put down a dog.

I think it may have even been before Caylee's body was found, we were discussing possible ICA hangouts and haunts near her home where she went when she was a child/teenager. We found out through various media reports about the pet burial area and how it was also a place where she hung out with friends from school. I remember saying it was in her comfort zone.

 

[Irish_Eyes]

bumping this so it can be seen by all again.
this is brilliant! i hope it is mentioned at trial!

Thanks! The state has it nailed down IMHO. They don't miss a trick.

I also noticed that JWG pointed out forever ago that it rained around 3:45, turned to heavy rain, then to light rain around 4:03....so I doubt anyone was in the pool at that time....perhaps this even foiled the plan A and maybe led to a plan B with Caylee in the sandbox or playhouse?

 

[amyLynn]

I have heard that the prosecution says they can prove the duct tape was put on pre-mortum. I am not inclined to believe they can when the medical examiner has stated that the COD is unknown. Is there a way to tell the duct tape was placed on before death if all they recovered of Caylee's body was bones and hair?

I was thinking that same thing. If during the act of the murder, when KC was applying the duct tape to the face some hairs were pulled out but remained attached to the duct tape and then after Caylee died some hairs remained on the duct tape with those post mortem deathbands on them. To me that would prove that the hairs on the duct tape in evidence have both hairs from a living child AND a dead child.

 

[Hot Dogs]

Anyway, decomp begins within minutes of death, so if KC applied the duct tape prior to decomp, then she had to think and work at lighting speed, IMO.

I think we are probably going to see an expert defense witness who will argue against the necessity of lightning speed for applying the tape post-mortem. They will force the ME to admit that the allowable timeframe is more than just a few minutes. They will try to corner the ME into saying that the tape could have been applied an hour or so after death and it would still look the same as if it were applied as an instrument of murder while Caylee was still alive.

 

[JenniferTx]

I do not believe her death was an accident at all. It was premeditated without any doubt. Bottom line is that sweet little Caylee was a thorn in her mothers side because all mommy wanted to do was run around and party and enter hot body contests. She even refers to Caylee as a little snot in an online chat session. Casey deserves the death penalty IMO. The death penalty was created for demons like Casey Anthony.

 

[gxm]

I think we are probably going to see an expert defense witness who will argue against the necessity of lightning speed for applying the tape post-mortem. They will force the ME to admit that the allowable timeframe is more than just a few minutes. They will try to corner the ME into saying that the tape could have been applied an hour or so after death and it would still look the same as if it were applied as an instrument of murder while Caylee was still alive.

Typing out loud here. If the duct tape had been applied over the mouth and nose after Caylee had, as ICA claims, drowned, would that not trap the water in her lungs. I don't know how long it takes water to drain from a drowning victim's lungs but it seems to me that sealing the nose and mouth wouldn't be the logical thing to do if one is trying to make an accidental drowning look like a kidnapping. MOO.

 

[gxm]

Three years ago I was leaning toward an accidental death due to parental neglect and/or abuse (and sealing a child in the trunk of a car is IMO abusive). Today, I'm leaning toward premeditated murder. I think ICA thought she could make it look like a kidnapping and that she moved the body around in an effort to keep Caylee from being found. IMO, ICA was hoping the body would never be found but, on the chance that Caylee would one day be found, she added the duct tape to make it look like an abduction.

 

[lisasalinger]

Three years ago I was leaning toward an accidental death due to parental neglect and/or abuse (and sealing a child in the trunk of a car is IMO abusive). Today, I'm leaning toward premeditated murder. I think ICA thought she could make it look like a kidnapping and that she moved the body around in an effort to keep Caylee from being found. IMO, ICA was hoping the body would never be found but, on the chance that Caylee would one day be found, she added the duct tape to make it look like an abduction.

I totally agree! I have always felt that Casey was responsible but there was a piece of me that just wasn't sure how it happened. I've considered accident, rage, etc, etc. Just like most of you, I have read through all of the evidence, considered every possiblity, and observed her and her family very closely.

I can honestly now say I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that she intentionally murdered her child and is a cold, calculating, and dangerous person. She is a murderer. Jose can rant and rave as much as he wants about abuse, poor Casey, her family is awful... blah, blah, blah. Sorry, not buying it for one single second. We see you Casey!! Yep, we know exactly who you are.

 

[gxm]

I totally agree! I have always felt that Casey was responsible but there was a piece of me that just wasn't sure how it happened. I've considered accident, rage, etc, etc. Just like most of you, I have read through all of the evidence, considered every possiblity, and observed her and her family very closely.

I can honestly now say I have no doubt in my mind whatsoever that she intentionally murdered her child and is a cold, calculating, and dangerous person. She is a murderer. Jose can rant and rave as much as he wants about abuse, poor Casey, her family is awful... blah, blah, blah. Sorry, not buying it for one single second. We see you Casey!! Yep, we know exactly who you are.

Yep.

And a big welcome to WS, lisasalinger!

 

[PaulaF513]

3 years ago, I believed that KC had given up Caylee for adoption to spite her mother. I couldn't explain her cocky and amused demeanor any other way than she knew Caylee was safe. Boy, has that naivete been corrected.

The duct tape around Caylee's head tells me that her mother killed her by suffocation, most probably in the trunk of the car, perhaps after sedating her. But it is equally possibly she was killed in her own home.

I do know that it is highly unlikely that duct tape would have stuck to wet skin or hair, so I don't believe its purpose was to staunch the flow of oral/nasal fluids. If Caylee had drowned, she would be soaked and I doubt KC took the time to blow dry her head before taping her.

KC's narcissistic and sociopathic tendencies lead me to believe that Caylee's death could have been either intentional or simply a byproduct of KC's need to be free of her for the night. She considered only her own needs and the fact that Caylee may have died, simply did not occur to her. Some call it depraved indifference....I believe it to be 1st degree murder with aggravating circumstances. That baby suffered and so too should the egg donor who gave her life.

 

[Hot Dogs]

Typing out loud here. If the duct tape had been applied over the mouth and nose after Caylee had, as ICA claims, drowned, would that not trap the water in her lungs. I don't know how long it takes water to drain from a drowning victim's lungs but it seems to me that sealing the nose and mouth wouldn't be the logical thing to do if one is trying to make an accidental drowning look like a kidnapping. MOO.

I'm not disagreeing with you about any water in the lungs. I'm also not trying to argue that what I said did happen. The jury isn't allowed to speculate.

I'm just talking about what I think the defense will do, or maybe what they must do based on their stated theory. Caylee drowned and then afterwards the duct tape was put on her face by George. In order to counter that, the State has to convince using facts that Caylee did not accidentally drown and was instead murdered by Casey. If the State argues that the tape was the murder "weapon" the defense just tries to plant doubt that it could be knowable with certainty that it was applied to a living child.

The State won't argue that "nobody would put tape on a child's face that had just drowned and had water-filled lungs". They'd never get that past an objection even if they tried. The jurors themselves aren't allowed to speculate.

I think it's just going to come down to...

State: The duct tape was placed on the face before the child was dead.
Defense: You can't say that with certainty, can you?

 

[Hoping4Justice]

This should be a short thread since I don't think there is much evidence of an accident.

 

[Turnadot]

I think we are probably going to see an expert defense witness who will argue against the necessity of lightning speed for applying the tape post-mortem. They will force the ME to admit that the allowable timeframe is more than just a few minutes. They will try to corner the ME into saying that the tape could have been applied an hour or so after death and it would still look the same as if it were applied as an instrument of murder while Caylee was still alive.

Decomp begins within 3-7 minutes after death, depending on the body and weather; it was Florida heat, so the rate of decomp would've been nearer the 3 minute mark, IMO. KC had to work lighting speed to place three, separate pieces of duct tape over Caylee's airways, if she placed them after death.

My personal opinion is the duct tape was placed antemortem, but the ME could not determine that.

 

[Hot Dogs]

Decomp begins within 3-7 minutes after death, depending on the body and weather; it was Florida heat, so the rate of decomp would've been nearer the 3 minute mark, IMO. KC had to work lighting speed to place three, separate pieces of duct tape over Caylee's airways, if she placed them after death.

My personal opinion is the duct tape was placed antemortem, but the ME could not determine that.

The rapid decomposition you are talking about is cellular. But that is still different than the stage of decomposition necessary for the mandible (jaw) to become detacted from the skull because of significant integrity loss to the muscles and ligaments. That is going to take longer.

I believe that the State's position is that the duct tape was applied when the mandible was still in a position that supports the theory that the child was still alive. We'll see what happens in the trial. I think the defense will use an expert witness to argue that the tape really could have been applied after death.

 

[lisasalinger]

Yep.

And a big welcome to WS, lisasalinger!

Thanks!!

Can you believe I've been reading here religiously for 5 years and I'm just now starting to post. I don't know how I kept my mouth shut for so long. I look forward to lots of interesting discussions with you folks. Happy Friday!

 

[Turnadot]

The rapid decomposition you are talking about is cellular. But that is still different than the stage of decomposition necessary for the mandible (jaw) to become detacted from the skull because of significant integrity loss to the muscles and ligaments. That is going to take longer.

I believe that the State's position is that the duct tape was applied when the mandible was still in a position that supports the theory that the child was still alive. We'll see what happens in the trial. I think the defense will use an expert witness to argue that the tape really could have been applied after death.

Yes, but I assumed that when the ME wrote her opinion that the tape was placed prior to decomposition, it was a professional, academic opinion, as in, prior to any decomp at all. Full stop.

The ME's opinion was based on Caylee's mandible, so you could be right. I'm not a doctor of any sort.

 

[gxm]

I'm not disagreeing with you about any water in the lungs. I'm also not trying to argue that what I said did happen. The jury isn't allowed to speculate.

I'm just talking about what I think the defense will do, or maybe what they must do based on their stated theory. Caylee drowned and then afterwards the duct tape was put on her face by George. In order to counter that, the State has to convince using facts that Caylee did not accidentally drown and was instead murdered by Casey. If the State argues that the tape was the murder "weapon" the defense just tries to plant doubt that it could be knowable with certainty that it was applied to a living child.

The State won't argue that "nobody would put tape on a child's face that had just drowned and had water-filled lungs". They'd never get that past an objection even if they tried. The jurors themselves aren't allowed to speculate.

I think it's just going to come down to...

State: The duct tape was placed on the face before the child was dead.
Defense: You can't say that with certainty, can you?

I'm not disagreeing either&#8230; just typing out loud. I guess the point I was trying to make is that if there was no water in Caylee's lungs then that shows that the tape was applied before she "drowned." IOW, the duct tape really paints the defense into a corner because (and I'm not a scientist so I don't know for sure) if it was applied prior to the supposed drowning then Caylee would not have drowned, she would have suffocated, and if it was applied after then the water could not have exited her lungs. Hope I'm making at least a little sense here.