Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #14 *Arrest*

[drsleuth]

1m ago06.06 BST
Mandy says Simon told the jury Patterson sent an “aggressive” message about child support to a group chat with his parents on the app Signal in December 2022.

He says the next day the defence, during cross-examination, showed Simon these messages. Simon then said these were not the messages he was referring to, the court hears.

“Then his memory became it was at some other time. Still in this group chat.”

Mandy says the disagreement between Patterson and Simon did not provide “any kind of motive to murder someone’s parents and their aunt and uncle”, he says.

Mandy says the tone of the messages in the group chat from early December to when Patterson travelled to New Zealand with her children later that month are “on an even keel”.

“They might be functional, they might be mechanical, but these two people were not warring,” he says.

“There is not anger or aggression.”

He points to a message Patterson sent Simon on 18 December 2022 asking for help because a tree had fallen across a fence at her property and one of her goats was in a neighbour’s yard. Simon replied that he was interstate but was happy to help when he returned, the court hears.

Erin Patterson mushroom trial day 33 – as it happened

This blog is now closed

www.theguardian.com

 

[MrJ]

So the defense is almost done with his closing?

I think it might take a few days at this point. He only started today so it might take a while

 

[drsleuth]

15:09

What's to come in marathon murder trial?​

The jury has been told Justice Christopher Beale won't commence his charge to the jury until Monday and it may still be going into Wednesday.
'But with the wind in my back it may finish Tuesday afternoon,' Justice Beale said.
Mr Mandy has resumed his closing.

Erin Patterson mushroom murder trial LIVE updates

Follow Daily Mail Australia's live coverage of accused mushroom chef Erin Patterson's murder trial here.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[BreakingNews]

They are in this case. The jury is being sequestered at an unknown location with no communication with the outside world.

Justice Beale said the 12 jurors would be sequestered when they retire for deliberations.​

And as far as I am aware, they are not allowed to have a break between the end of the Judges instructions and deliberation.

Twist in mushroom murder trial as some charges dropped

www.9news.com.au

Why not?

 

[Detechtive]

Motive 'very important to proof of intention'​

Mr Mandy told the jury the prosecution must prove that Erin intended to murder or cause serious injury to Don, Gail, Ian and Heather.
He said while it didn’t need to prove she had a motive, doing so was “very important to the proof of intention”.
“With an absence of a reason, an intention to kill is very unlikely,” he said.
“To prove the intention to kill or cause serious injury to four good people who were important in Erin’s life, the prosecution has to be able to demonstrate a motive or provide evidence of one.
“(If they don’t) then you might think they fall short of being able to prove intention as a matter of logic or common sense.”
Mr Mandy took the jury to the evidence the Crown led about the text messages between Erin and Simon, and between Erin and his parents.
He said discussion about animosity and a dispute over taxes was “unpersuasive” as a motive for murder.
Simon gave evidence of “extremely inflammatory” messages from Erin but Mr Mandy said the evidence showed she was, at most, “upset and hurt”.
He said the messages were evidence of a “normal” relationship between people who are separated and have joint care of their children.
“There’s no anger or aggression, no hatred or anything remotely approaching that. Not between Erin and Simon and certainly not between Erin and Simon’s parents,” he said.
“Our argument to you is that motive is very important to the proof of intention and usually fundamental to it.”

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/truecrimeaustralia/the-mushroom-cook/erin-patterson-trial-live-closing-addresses-continue-in-mushroom-cook-case/live-coverage/2d6e483591ad308c611f94b4f9620a47#/entry/32265239

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I don't see the jury starting to deliberate this week.

Like @BreakingNews I think they would most likely start on Monday.

I think the defence will continue tomorrow and the next day, Thursday, will be instructions from the judge.

I think the court won't sit on Friday.

This is all just a guess on my part.

I have been known to be wrong before

 

[Detechtive]

Judge provides update on trial timeline​

After a short break, Justice Christopher Beale gave the jurors an update on the trial timeline.
“I won’t commence my charge (instructions) to you until Monday,” he said.
He told them the instructions could “spill over” into Wednesday or he could finish on Tuesday afternoon.
Justice Beale said he hoped that update would help them “organise their affairs” ahead of their deliberations.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/truecrimeaustralia/the-mushroom-cook/erin-patterson-trial-live-closing-addresses-continue-in-mushroom-cook-case/live-coverage/2d6e483591ad308c611f94b4f9620a47#/entry/32265239

 

[MrJ]

1m ago
No reason for Erin to rob children of 'wonderful' grandparents, defence tells jury

By Joseph Dunstan

Ms Patterson's defence barrister Colin Mandy SC tells the jury there has been evidence of the warm relationship between his client and her in-laws.

"Erin Patterson had a motive to keep these people in her world so that they could keep supporting her and her children," he says.

"And there's absolutely no doubt that Don and Gail had a great relationship with [their grandchildren] ... absolutely no doubt that Erin was devoted to her children.

"Why would she take wonderful, active, loving grandparents away from her own children?"

 

[katydid23]

Prosecution took 'flawed approach' to this case: Defence​

Mr Mandy continued his address to the jury by addressing one of the “important questions” in the case.
“Is it possible for people … to share the same meal containing amatoxins, but have very different health outcomes?” he asked.
Mr Mandy said the prosecution suggested it was “not possible”.
He told the jury a journal article produced during evidence by a forensic toxicologist was written by two amatoxin experts from Germany.
But he said despite the prosecution being able to call international witnesses, no experts were called to be asked about the “possible reasons“ why his client was not as sick as the others.
Mr Mandy declared that the prosecution took a “flawed approach” to the case, adding that witnesses can be “honestly mistaken” in their memories.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/truecrimeaustralia/the-mushroom-cook/erin-patterson-trial-live-closing-addresses-continue-in-mushroom-cook-case/live-coverage/2d6e483591ad308c611f94b4f9620a47#/entry/32264964

If EP added powdered death caps to the meal, 'accidentally', it would not be possible for someone who ate that meal to be unaffected. Powdered toxins infiltrate the entire meal, if they are in the mushroom paste.

Now in this specific incident, the cook made totally individual pastry dishes of Beef Wellington.

So if she didn't add any of the toxic paste to her BW, on the smaller brightly coloured plate, she wasn't going to get sick. IMO

 

[drsleuth]

3m ago06.09 BST
Justice Christopher Beale tells the jury he will begin instructing them ahead of their deliberations on Monday.

He says this may “spill over into Wednesday”.

“With a wind in my back I may finish by Tuesday afternoon,” he says.

Erin Patterson mushroom trial day 33 – as it happened

This blog is now closed

www.theguardian.com

 

[Detechtive]

Why not?

In Victoria, juries are generally expected to begin deliberations promptly after the judge concludes summing up the case. This practice is rooted in procedural norms aimed at preserving the integrity and efficiency of the trial process.

Reasons for Immediate Jury Deliberation
Preservation of Evidence Integrity: Delaying deliberations could risk jurors forgetting or misremembering critical details. Immediate deliberation helps ensure that decisions are based on fresh recollections of the evidence and testimonies presented during the trial.

Minimisation of External Influences: Allowing time between the trial's end and deliberations increases the possibility of jurors being exposed to external information or opinions, which could bias their judgment. Immediate deliberation reduces this risk by limiting the window for such exposure.

Procedural Efficiency: The judicial system aims for timely resolution of cases. Prompt deliberation contributes to this goal by avoiding unnecessary delays in reaching a verdict.

Legal Framework
While the Juries Act 2000 (Vic) does not explicitly mandate immediate deliberation, it outlines procedures that facilitate a seamless transition from trial to deliberation. For instance, after the judge's summing up, the jury is expected to retire and consider their verdict without undue delay. This approach ensures that jurors' decisions are based solely on the evidence presented in court and the judge's instructions, minimising the influence of external factors.

Exceptions and Judicial Discretion
While immediate deliberation is standard, judges have discretion to delay the process in certain circumstances. For example:

Scheduling Constraints: If a trial concludes late in the day or just before a weekend, a judge may postpone deliberations to ensure jurors have adequate time and are not fatigued.

Juror Well-being: If a juror falls ill or faces an emergency, the judge might delay deliberations until the issue is resolved.

Such decisions are made to balance the fairness of the trial with practical considerations.

Juries Act 2000

www.legislation.vic.gov.au

 

[TootsieFootsie]

I was wrong. Deliberations may start the middle of next week.

Defence begins closing address in Erin Patterson murder trial — as it happened

The accused murderer's legal team has begun delivering its closing address to the jury.

www.abc.net.au

When the jury comes back, Justice Christopher Beale tells them he's likely to start giving them final instructions from Monday.

"With the wind at my back, I might finish it by Tuesday afternoon," he says.



Me - This means deliberations for the jury will likely begin in the middle of next week.

 

[Scuffy35]

Unfortunately the bulimia angle was only raised in cross - which I don't think the prosecution anticipated or they would have covered that basis. IMO

There are also the other points I mentioned, but for the bulimia angle, the prosecution could have sought to provide rebuttal evidence couldn't they?

 

[Detechtive]

There are also the other points I mentioned, but for the bulimia angle, the prosecution could have sought to provide rebuttal evidence couldn't they?

Sure, but only with permission from the judge and it's difficult to argue during or after cross. IMO

 

[Megnut]

The accused’s account largely consistent despite ‘lots of questions’ from different people: defence

Defence counsel Colin Mandy, SC, told the jury the prosecution had “picked and chosen” evidence and cherrypicked convenient fragments, while discarding inconvenient truths.

“Erin Patterson was answering lots of questions from many, many people when she was under [what] you might think is pressure,” Mandy said in his closing address.

He said the defence’s argument to the jury was that Patterson’s evidence was largely consistent and she was giving the same account “over and over again, but to lots of different people in many different contexts”.


The defence barrister said that when people told the same story to others, they often adapted it depending on who was listening

“You might, for instance, tell your child details about an event different from what you might tell your partner. You might emphasise different details of an account when you talk to a doctor than when you talk to a friend. So that’s an important context,” he said.

“People have imperfect and honestly mistaken memories.”

Mandy reminded the jury of the telephone game, where messages are whispered from one person to another, with the resulting message sometimes differing from the original statement. He told the jurors they might have previously had an experience of telling a story to someone at a birthday party, only for someone else to jump in and say “that didn’t happen like that”.

“We know those sorts of things happen in our everyday lives and they can also happen in courtrooms,” Mandy said.

The court has adjourned for lunch. Mandy will continue his address to the jury this afternoon.




While discarding inconvenient truths?? What are they, Mr Mandy?

If Erin were innocent, she would be able to remember everything

Thank god Mr Wilkinson survived to give his account

Bbm

Mandy reminded the jury of the telephone game --

I don't suppose he meant the Telephone A game EP was playing...

But anyway, it was only EP's answers that kept changing, which isn't what the telephone game is.

JMO

 

[drsleuth]

3.18pm

Child support payments a motive for murder ‘unpersuasive’​

By​

Shortly after Erin Patterson’s defence barrister, Colin Mandy, SC, took to his feet in courtroom four in Morwell, his closing address was briefly disrupted when a mobile phone began ringing in the front row.

It came only minutes after he was earlier asked to stop speaking when two members of the public walked in to look for seats to sit in.

He continues. Motive was very important, and usually fundamental, to proving intention in a case, he said.

“With an absence of a reason, an intention to kill is very unlikely,” Mandy said.

Mandy added that to prove intention, the prosecution needed to provide a motive. He said the prosecution had been scratching around to find some suggestion of animosity in the family dynamics, and referred to evidence in the trial about messages between Patterson, her estranged husband and her in-laws, about child support payments.


“The reason why it was led by the prosecution is because they want to try to show that there was some kind of difficulty in the relationship between Erin and Simon, and that might provide a reason to murder his parent and then his aunt and uncle seven months later,” Mandy said.

Mandy described that argument as “unpersuasive”, adding that animosity occurred between a handful of days in December 2022.

“Obviously, Erin was upset. She really acknowledged that. She was venting to her online mate for a few short days, seven months before the lunch.” Mandy said.

Erin Patterson murder trial day 33 as it happened: Accused mushroom cook lied to authorities and in witness box, prosecutor says in concluding argument; defence argues no intent, panic explains actions

Inside courtroom four in Morwell, Patterson, on trial for murder, listened intently as prosecutor Nanette Rogers, SC, concluded her closing argument, and defence barrister Colin Mandy, SC, commenced his.

www.theage.com.au

 

[LinasK]

If EP added powdered death caps to the meal, 'accidentally', it would not be possible for someone who ate that meal to be unaffected. Powdered toxins infiltrate the entire meal, if they are in the mushroom paste.

Now in this specific incident, the cook made totally individual pastry dishes of Beef Wellington.

So if she didn't add any of the toxic paste to her BW, on the smaller brightly coloured plate, she wasn't going to get sick. IMO

Exactly- her case for an accident would have been much stronger had she only made one big BW log as is called for and everyone ate from it. Individual portions that she could control is just suspect. So is the different colored plates. Poor Heather realized it as she was dying...

 

[drsleuth]

15:14

Defence: Patterson 'had no reason to kill'​

Mr Mandy asked if an absence of motive makes it more likely it was an accident, to which he said 'it did'.
He said Patterson's (legal team pictured) name remained on properties long after she and Simon separated, and she had a close relationship with Don and so did her son.
'Erin had a motive to keep these people in her world,' Mr Mandy said.
Mr Mandy said there was no doubt his client was devoted to her children and had no reason to take their grandparents away from them.
Mr Mandy said Patterson was financially well-off, had just had her home landscaped and was proud of it, and had planned to study and effectively had soul custody of the kids.
Patterson had a body-image issue but had planned to fix that, the jury was told.
'All things considered she was in a good place,' Mr Mandy said.
'That is why she had no reason to kill her in-laws.'
Mr Mandy also said it was 'inevitable' the fatal lunch would 'attract suspicion'.


15:18

Cook would be 'under spotlight' after poisoning event, court hears​

Mr Mandy has outlined how it would be obvious a planned mass mushroom poisoning would come under intense scrutiny.
He said the Crown claimed the crime was a 'carefully planned event' which they suggested she'd planned for months.
'An intelligent person carefully planning a crime would know if you poisoned people in your house, the meal would be under suspicion,' Mr Mandy suggested.
'It is inevitable the focus would be on the cook, very, very quickly.
'Investigation was inevitable given how unwell these people were and that's what happened.
Mr Mandy said the 'cook would be under the spotlight'.
'It's obvious,' Mr Mandy said.

Erin Patterson mushroom murder trial LIVE updates

Follow Daily Mail Australia's live coverage of accused mushroom chef Erin Patterson's murder trial here.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Detechtive]

Exactly- her case for an accident would have been much stronger had she only made one big BW log as is called for and everyone ate from it. Individual portions that she could control is just suspect. So is the different colored plates. Poor Heather realized it as she was dying...

Even if she made a really long huge log and only put deathcaps at one end, she may have had the perfect crime, IMO

 

[Megnut]

So the defense is almost done with his closing?

I think it might take a few days at this point. He only started today so it might take a while

He might not yet be finished but she is.

JMO