lazymaiden07
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I was wondering that! I wanted to make roll-ups, but without all the sugar. Saves a dehydrator purchase
Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #14 *Arrest*
- Thread starter TootsieFootsie
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Let's be honest, he doesn't have much to work with.
Erin taking the stand will be her undoing
If she didn't, I think the jury may have been able to see some reasonable doubt..........maybe
IMO
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Can't wait! Sitting on pins & needles for you to dish.
1h ago04.07 BST
Mandy tells the jury that people have “imperfect and honestly mistaken memories”.
He says the jurors will have experienced telling a story to a group of people and having it recounted differently.
“Details get emphasised, details get minimised,” he says.
50m ago13.25 AEST
Mandy points to the “imperfect” evidence of nurse Kylie Ashton who told the trial the Patterson’s children eating the beef wellington leftovers was first discussed at her initial presentation at Leongatha hospital.
Mandy says this evidence was not supported by other medical witnesses and it was inconceivable doctors knew about the children at the initial presentation as they would have taken urgent action.
He says the nurse may have found out about the children later and made a mistake when she testified.
45m ago13.30 AEST
The court has adjourned for a lunch break.
Mandy’s closing address will continue from 2.15pm.
Mandy tells the jury that people have “imperfect and honestly mistaken memories”.
He says the jurors will have experienced telling a story to a group of people and having it recounted differently.
“Details get emphasised, details get minimised,” he says.
50m ago13.25 AEST
Mandy points to the “imperfect” evidence of nurse Kylie Ashton who told the trial the Patterson’s children eating the beef wellington leftovers was first discussed at her initial presentation at Leongatha hospital.
Mandy says this evidence was not supported by other medical witnesses and it was inconceivable doctors knew about the children at the initial presentation as they would have taken urgent action.
He says the nurse may have found out about the children later and made a mistake when she testified.
45m ago13.30 AEST
The court has adjourned for a lunch break.
Mandy’s closing address will continue from 2.15pm.
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nope
1.03pm
But when it came to assessing the accused woman’s credibility, Rogers said, significant portions of her account relied on her evidence only, including evidence about picking and eating wild mushrooms between 2020 and 2023.
“You cannot assess the accused as a truthful, honest, and trustworthy witness,” Rogers told the jury.
The prosecutor urged the jury to put Patterson’s evidence to one side and use their “combined common sense” to determine issues in the case.
“The prosecution must prove the elements of these charges beyond reasonable doubt,” Rogers said.
Patterson has pleaded not guilty to three counts of murder and one of attempted murder.
The jury was urged to consider the case as a jigsaw puzzle. One piece might not tell much at all, Rogers said, but as they were put together, “the picture starts to become clear”.
If jurors had a small doubt about one small piece of evidence, Rogers told them, they should remember that they do not have to be satisfied with every individual piece of evidence beyond a reasonable doubt.
Instead, they should step back, look at a case as a whole, and ask themselves: “Am I satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that the onus has been [met]?”
1.13pm
“You must not let your emotional response to those allegations cloud your judgment. You must not feel sorry for the accused in the position that she is in facing those criminal charges. You may not want to believe that someone could be capable of doing what the accused has done,” Rogers said towards the end of her closing address.
“Don’t let your emotional reaction dictate your verdict one way or another.”
Rogers told the jury Patterson had told lies upon lies because she knew the truth would implicate her, and had engaged in a fifth deception.
“The deception she has tried to play on you, the jury,” Rogers said.
Rogers said that when she knew her lies were uncovered, Patterson came up with a carefully constructed narrative to fit the evidence.
She told the jury that when they deliberating a verdict they should remember all the evidence.
That included Patterson preparing and allocating the beef Wellington meal to her four lunch guests, the fact she was the only person who ate the meal and didn’t fall seriously ill, the evidence that she was familiar with the iNaturalist website and the death cap observation page, the phone tower evidence that is consistent with her visiting two locations in Gippsland where death cap mushrooms were sighted in April and May 2023, the photos of mushrooms she was dehydrating, and the evidence that remnants of death caps were found in her dehydrator.
Rogers said the jury should also consider the evidence of the lengths Patterson went to to conceal her actions, which including dumping the dehydrator and concealing her real phone from police, and the “many lies” she told about the true source of the mushrooms that went into the beef Wellingtons.
“We suggest you will be satisfied that the accused deliberately sourced death caps, deliberately served death caps to Don, Gail, Ian and Heather, and did so intending to kill every one of them,” Rogers said as she finished her closing address to the jury.
“Those conclusions, we suggest, will lead you to be satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that the accused is guilty of all charges in the indictment.”
Patterson has pleaded not guilty to three charges of murder and one of attempted murder.
1.18pm
He has started by telling the jury that their consideration of the evidence in the trial will come down to two simple issues. The first: Is there a reasonable possibility that death cap mushrooms were put into the meal accidentally? And the second: Is it a reasonable possibility that Erin Patterson didn’t intend to kill or cause serious injury to her guests at her lunch on July 29, 2023?
Erin Patterson’s defence barrister Colin Mandy, SC.Credit: Jason South
“If either of those is a reasonable possibility ... you find her not guilty. Because that’s the law,” Mandy said.
A flawed approach by the prosecution in the way they analysed the evidence was an overarching issue in the case, Mandy said.
“The prosecution’s just made an argument to you, that’s not evidence. The prosecution has referred selectively to the evidence, choosing the bits they liked to suit their theory in a very deliberate way,” he said.
“We will take you to a number of examples of that, when the prosecution has done that in the cross-examination of Erin Patterson and in the closing argument that you heard.”
1.28pm
“Erin Patterson was answering lots of questions from many, many people when she was under [what] you might think is pressure,” Mandy said in his closing address.
He said the defence’s argument to the jury was that Patterson’s evidence was largely consistent and she was giving the same account “over and over again, but to lots of different people in many different contexts”.
The defence barrister said that when people told the same story to others, they often adapted it depending on who was listening.
“You might, for instance, tell your child details about an event different from what you might tell your partner. You might emphasise different details of an account when you talk to a doctor than when you talk to a friend. So that’s an important context,” he said.
“People have imperfect and honestly mistaken memories.”
Mandy reminded the jury of the telephone game, where messages are whispered from one person to another, with the resulting message sometimes differing from the original statement. He told the jurors they might have previously had an experience of telling a story to someone at a birthday party, only for someone else to jump in and say “that didn’t happen like that”.
“We know those sorts of things happen in our every day lives and they can also happen in courtrooms,” Mandy said.
The court has adjourned for lunch. Mandy will continue his address to the jury this afternoon.
www.theage.com.au
Consider the case like a jigsaw, jurors told
By
There was no onus on Erin Patterson to prove anything in the trial as that was up to the Crown, prosecutor Nanette Rogers, SC, told the jury in her closing address.But when it came to assessing the accused woman’s credibility, Rogers said, significant portions of her account relied on her evidence only, including evidence about picking and eating wild mushrooms between 2020 and 2023.
“You cannot assess the accused as a truthful, honest, and trustworthy witness,” Rogers told the jury.
The prosecutor urged the jury to put Patterson’s evidence to one side and use their “combined common sense” to determine issues in the case.
“The prosecution must prove the elements of these charges beyond reasonable doubt,” Rogers said.
Patterson has pleaded not guilty to three counts of murder and one of attempted murder.
The jury was urged to consider the case as a jigsaw puzzle. One piece might not tell much at all, Rogers said, but as they were put together, “the picture starts to become clear”.
If jurors had a small doubt about one small piece of evidence, Rogers told them, they should remember that they do not have to be satisfied with every individual piece of evidence beyond a reasonable doubt.
Instead, they should step back, look at a case as a whole, and ask themselves: “Am I satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that the onus has been [met]?”
1.13pm
Prosecutor finishes her address, urges jury to find Erin Patterson guilty
By
Prosecutor Nanette Rogers, SC, told the jury the Crown had “well and truly met” its onus of proving the case against accused killer Erin Patterson.“You must not let your emotional response to those allegations cloud your judgment. You must not feel sorry for the accused in the position that she is in facing those criminal charges. You may not want to believe that someone could be capable of doing what the accused has done,” Rogers said towards the end of her closing address.
“Don’t let your emotional reaction dictate your verdict one way or another.”
Rogers told the jury Patterson had told lies upon lies because she knew the truth would implicate her, and had engaged in a fifth deception.
“The deception she has tried to play on you, the jury,” Rogers said.
Rogers said that when she knew her lies were uncovered, Patterson came up with a carefully constructed narrative to fit the evidence.
She told the jury that when they deliberating a verdict they should remember all the evidence.
That included Patterson preparing and allocating the beef Wellington meal to her four lunch guests, the fact she was the only person who ate the meal and didn’t fall seriously ill, the evidence that she was familiar with the iNaturalist website and the death cap observation page, the phone tower evidence that is consistent with her visiting two locations in Gippsland where death cap mushrooms were sighted in April and May 2023, the photos of mushrooms she was dehydrating, and the evidence that remnants of death caps were found in her dehydrator.
Rogers said the jury should also consider the evidence of the lengths Patterson went to to conceal her actions, which including dumping the dehydrator and concealing her real phone from police, and the “many lies” she told about the true source of the mushrooms that went into the beef Wellingtons.
“We suggest you will be satisfied that the accused deliberately sourced death caps, deliberately served death caps to Don, Gail, Ian and Heather, and did so intending to kill every one of them,” Rogers said as she finished her closing address to the jury.
“Those conclusions, we suggest, will lead you to be satisfied beyond reasonable doubt that the accused is guilty of all charges in the indictment.”
Patterson has pleaded not guilty to three charges of murder and one of attempted murder.
1.18pm
Defence barrister starts address, raises prosecution’s ‘flawed approach’
By
Defence counsel Colin Mandy, SC, is on his feet to deliver his closing address to the jury.He has started by telling the jury that their consideration of the evidence in the trial will come down to two simple issues. The first: Is there a reasonable possibility that death cap mushrooms were put into the meal accidentally? And the second: Is it a reasonable possibility that Erin Patterson didn’t intend to kill or cause serious injury to her guests at her lunch on July 29, 2023?
Erin Patterson’s defence barrister Colin Mandy, SC.Credit: Jason South
“If either of those is a reasonable possibility ... you find her not guilty. Because that’s the law,” Mandy said.
A flawed approach by the prosecution in the way they analysed the evidence was an overarching issue in the case, Mandy said.
“The prosecution’s just made an argument to you, that’s not evidence. The prosecution has referred selectively to the evidence, choosing the bits they liked to suit their theory in a very deliberate way,” he said.
“We will take you to a number of examples of that, when the prosecution has done that in the cross-examination of Erin Patterson and in the closing argument that you heard.”
1.28pm
Accused’s account largely consistent despite ‘lots of questions’ from different people: defence
By
Defence counsel Colin Mandy, SC, told the jury the prosecution had “picked and chosen” evidence and cherrypicked convenient fragments, while discarding inconvenient truths.“Erin Patterson was answering lots of questions from many, many people when she was under [what] you might think is pressure,” Mandy said in his closing address.
He said the defence’s argument to the jury was that Patterson’s evidence was largely consistent and she was giving the same account “over and over again, but to lots of different people in many different contexts”.
The defence barrister said that when people told the same story to others, they often adapted it depending on who was listening.
“You might, for instance, tell your child details about an event different from what you might tell your partner. You might emphasise different details of an account when you talk to a doctor than when you talk to a friend. So that’s an important context,” he said.
“People have imperfect and honestly mistaken memories.”
Mandy reminded the jury of the telephone game, where messages are whispered from one person to another, with the resulting message sometimes differing from the original statement. He told the jurors they might have previously had an experience of telling a story to someone at a birthday party, only for someone else to jump in and say “that didn’t happen like that”.
“We know those sorts of things happen in our every day lives and they can also happen in courtrooms,” Mandy said.
The court has adjourned for lunch. Mandy will continue his address to the jury this afternoon.
Erin Patterson murder trial day 33 as it happened: Accused mushroom cook lied to authorities and in witness box, prosecutor says in concluding argument; defence argues no intent, panic explains actions
Inside courtroom four in Morwell, Patterson, on trial for murder, listened intently as prosecutor Nanette Rogers, SC, concluded her closing argument, and defence barrister Colin Mandy, SC, commenced his.
D
Deleted member 363451
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From what I've read dehydrators are very slow with the drying process and I wouldn't think very economical to use.
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1h ago04.07 BST
Mandy tells the jury that people have “imperfect and honestly mistaken memories”.
He says the jurors will have experienced telling a story to a group of people and having it recounted differently.
“Details get emphasised, details get minimised,” he says.
50m ago13.25 AEST
Mandy points to the “imperfect” evidence of nurse Kylie Ashton who told the trial the Patterson’s children eating the beef wellington leftovers was first discussed at her initial presentation at Leongatha hospital.
Mandy says this evidence was not supported by other medical witnesses and it was inconceivable doctors knew about the children at the initial presentation as they would have taken urgent action.
He says the nurse may have found out about the children later and made a mistake when she testified.
45m ago13.30 AEST
The court has adjourned for a lunch break.
Mandy’s closing address will continue from 2.15pm.
I know he doesn't have any other choice, but I still feel like it's a mistake to go against seasoned professionals who have no skin in the game. Doctors, nurses, child protection workers - these are all people who chose careers to help people, they are highly professional and keep strict records and notes.
Trying to diminish their credibility to normalise Erins lapses in 'memory' is a mistake, IMO
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If she is convicted, I have no doubt she will throw Mandy SC under the bus and claim she wasn't properly represented, IMO
And he also told Erin, “They can be scared and alive or dead”.
How much more urgent does the leasing need to be?
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The accused’s account largely consistent despite ‘lots of questions’ from different people: defence
Defence counsel Colin Mandy, SC, told the jury the prosecution had “picked and chosen” evidence and cherrypicked convenient fragments, while discarding inconvenient truths.
“Erin Patterson was answering lots of questions from many, many people when she was under [what] you might think is pressure,” Mandy said in his closing address.
He said the defence’s argument to the jury was that Patterson’s evidence was largely consistent and she was giving the same account “over and over again, but to lots of different people in many different contexts”.
The defence barrister said that when people told the same story to others, they often adapted it depending on who was listening
“You might, for instance, tell your child details about an event different from what you might tell your partner. You might emphasise different details of an account when you talk to a doctor than when you talk to a friend. So that’s an important context,” he said.
“People have imperfect and honestly mistaken memories.”
Mandy reminded the jury of the telephone game, where messages are whispered from one person to another, with the resulting message sometimes differing from the original statement. He told the jurors they might have previously had an experience of telling a story to someone at a birthday party, only for someone else to jump in and say “that didn’t happen like that”.
“We know those sorts of things happen in our everyday lives and they can also happen in courtrooms,” Mandy said.
The court has adjourned for lunch. Mandy will continue his address to the jury this afternoon.
While discarding inconvenient truths?? What are they, Mr Mandy?
If Erin were innocent, she would be able to remember everything
Thank god Mr Wilkinson survived to give his account
Defence counsel Colin Mandy, SC, told the jury the prosecution had “picked and chosen” evidence and cherrypicked convenient fragments, while discarding inconvenient truths.
“Erin Patterson was answering lots of questions from many, many people when she was under [what] you might think is pressure,” Mandy said in his closing address.
He said the defence’s argument to the jury was that Patterson’s evidence was largely consistent and she was giving the same account “over and over again, but to lots of different people in many different contexts”.
The defence barrister said that when people told the same story to others, they often adapted it depending on who was listening
“You might, for instance, tell your child details about an event different from what you might tell your partner. You might emphasise different details of an account when you talk to a doctor than when you talk to a friend. So that’s an important context,” he said.
“People have imperfect and honestly mistaken memories.”
Mandy reminded the jury of the telephone game, where messages are whispered from one person to another, with the resulting message sometimes differing from the original statement. He told the jurors they might have previously had an experience of telling a story to someone at a birthday party, only for someone else to jump in and say “that didn’t happen like that”.
“We know those sorts of things happen in our everyday lives and they can also happen in courtrooms,” Mandy said.
The court has adjourned for lunch. Mandy will continue his address to the jury this afternoon.
While discarding inconvenient truths?? What are they, Mr Mandy?
If Erin were innocent, she would be able to remember everything
Thank god Mr Wilkinson survived to give his account
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WTF
Key Event
1m ago
Defence says 'fundamental' issue of different health outcomes must be considered by jury
By Joseph Dunstan
The hearing's back and defence barrister Colin Mandy SC continues delivering his closing address to the jury.
He tells the jury it's "fundamental" that it considers if it's possible for people to share the same meal containing death cap mushroom toxins and have different medical outcomes.
He asks the jury what "scientific" reasons there might be for why Ms Patterson was less sick than her other lunch guests and criticises the prosecution for not leading more evidence on this matter.
Key Event
1m ago
Defence says 'fundamental' issue of different health outcomes must be considered by jury
By Joseph Dunstan
The hearing's back and defence barrister Colin Mandy SC continues delivering his closing address to the jury.
He tells the jury it's "fundamental" that it considers if it's possible for people to share the same meal containing death cap mushroom toxins and have different medical outcomes.
He asks the jury what "scientific" reasons there might be for why Ms Patterson was less sick than her other lunch guests and criticises the prosecution for not leading more evidence on this matter.
May be atill happening?Many months actually
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Exactly!And he also told Erin, “They can be scared and alive or dead”.
How much more urgent does the leasing need to be?
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1m ago
Defence says it will unpack all its 'every argument' to jury
By Joseph Dunstan
Mr Mandy says it's the "last chance" he has to speak to the jury on Erin Patterson's behalf and so he will spend time unpacking "every argument" he can.
"We can't chat to you about this, we can't say to you 'I've thought of this argument, who agrees with me' and then get a show of hands," he says, explaining in advance why he must fully unpack each argument.
He says if his arguments make sense to the jury, they should use them, and if not, they should set them aside.
Defence says it will unpack all its 'every argument' to jury
By Joseph Dunstan
Mr Mandy says it's the "last chance" he has to speak to the jury on Erin Patterson's behalf and so he will spend time unpacking "every argument" he can.
"We can't chat to you about this, we can't say to you 'I've thought of this argument, who agrees with me' and then get a show of hands," he says, explaining in advance why he must fully unpack each argument.
He says if his arguments make sense to the jury, they should use them, and if not, they should set them aside.
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That fails to account for CCTV footage of her dumping the dehydrator at the dump, and cell tower pings of her phone in the areas where Death Caps grow, and purchasing a dehydrator only used for mushrooms two hours later.
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I don't think they lockup the jury any more, especially for weekends. Used to. Now they would rather close early on Friday and the jury start deliberating on the Monday. Being on a jury takes over your life enough. For them, it would be like their entire world has ceased to exist for the past 8 weeks.
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'Imperfect and honestly mistaken memories': Defence begins closing address
Defence barrister Colin Mandy SC has started delivering his closing address.He told the jury there are “two simple issues you have to determine”:
Is there a reasonable possibility that death cap mushrooms were put into this meal accidentally?
Is it a reasonable possibility that Erin Patterson did not intend to kill or cause serious injury to her guests?
Mr Mandy said if either of those are reasonable possibilities based on all the evidence, “then you would have reasonable doubt”.
He said the prosecution had taken a “flawed approach” in its analysis of the evidence, cherry picking only the bits that supported their theory that she’s guilty.
“They are choosing the bits they like, that supports their (theory), and ignoring the bits they don’t like, or that don’t fit their case,” he said.
The Crown said Erin was an unreliable and “untrustworthy” witness who lied or changed her story about certain issues.
But Mr Mandy said this could be put down to the fact that “people have imperfect and honestly mistaken memories”.
He said his client had been “answering lots of questions from many, many different people” in the days following the lunch and had been “under some pressure” while doing so.
“She was giving the same account over and over again to lots of different people, and there’s very little meaningful variation in the information she gave,” he said.
He said differing recollections among witnesses now could be explained by the passing of time.
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