Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #14 *Arrest*

[Lord Peter Flimsy]

I wonder if EP asked if she could do the Defence closing speech?!

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

I don't see how this supports her innocence. The prosecution's version is she falsely claimed to have scraped the mushrooms off for the children. The remains in the bin support that lie. If she disposed of them elsewhere, the question would have been "So where is the pastry and duxelle you removed?"

Yeah we know it's a lie that she didn't know it was tainted, since she said her kids ate the meat that was wrapped in that pastry, which is clearly a lie.

 

[SouthAussie]

1m ago06.57 BST
Mandy says Patterson spoke to many people after the lunch. He says it’s “likely” Patterson was “being consistent” when she gave accounts to people including child protection workers and medical staff.

She was being pretty consistent. "It was Woolies or an Asian grocer"

The problem is that it was mushrooms that she knew she added to the dish.

imo

 

[Lisa4]

He asks the jury what "scientific" reasons there might be for why Ms Patterson was less sick than her other lunch guests and criticises the prosecution for not leading more evidence on this matter. abc.net.au

I am trying to recall if anything came up on here around this point. I did do a quick dive into it at one point but I was unable to find anything. It's all unprecedented.

 

[SouthAussie]

In the US, we call this behavior "Consciousness of Guilt". Tossing/hiding evidence isn't the actions of an innocent person, even if you think they suspect you.

We have that here, too. But Colin Mandy's defence seems to negate it. imo

Read the first condition for consciousness of guilt to apply.



"However, not every lie told by an accused can be considered evidence of guilt. The High Court in Edwards laid down specific requirements that must be met for a lie to be used in this way:

1. The Lie Must Be Deliberate: The accused must have intentionally told the lie. If the lie was told out of confusion, mistake, or even panic, it cannot be used as evidence of guilt.
2. The Lie Must Relate to a Material Issue: The lie must be about something significant related to the offence, such as the accused’s whereabouts at the time of the crime or their involvement in the act itself.
3. The Lie Must Be Motivated by a Realisation of Guilt: The lie must have been told because the truth would implicate the accused in the crime. In other words, the accused must have lied out of fear that telling the truth would reveal their guilt."

What are Lies as Consciousness of Guilt? | FEDOROV

When it comes to criminal law in Australia, the concept of "consciousness of guilt" is one that can have profound implications

www.fedorovfamilylawyers.com.au

 

[JBowie]

I wonder if EP asked if she could do the Defence closing speech?!

Imagining that:

"Ladies and gentlemen of the jury,

As I look at you, frankly I don't see much sign of intelligence, so pay close attention while I set you straight on this whole business."

 

[lazymaiden07]

??

Bad joke I thought Therefore, deleted

 

[Kemug]

My former FIL did. He used to dehydrate tomatoes and jerky and fruit.

You're probably in the US? Jerky isn't much of a thing in Australia. Not that it matters anyway.

 

[Gavel Rash]

The narcissistic controlling tendencies Erin Patterson has displayed throughout this trial are indicative of the nature of the person. She had most certainly been undermining Simon to her children to become her flying monkeys, turning them against him, as her son described his father as being mean to his mother, when all we ever saw of him in transcript was being helpful whenever asked?
One can only imagine the sole custody arrangement she had contrived was orchestrated entirely by her own manipulation to ensure power over Simon.
I feel she had become so enraged by his detachment to her and the extension of that being her loss of control that she decided to take full control back by eliminating those that didn’t fall into line with her plans. The four poisoned being secondary targets of this elaborate evil plan but with Simon’s refusal to come to the lunch, the other parties were now merely collateral damage that was also to be effective to give her control back of Simon.

 

[Jake18]

He asks the jury what "scientific" reasons there might be for why Ms Patterson was less sick than her other lunch guests and criticises the prosecution for not leading more evidence on this matter. abc.net.au

I am trying to recall if anything came up on here around this point. I did do a quick dive into it at one point but I was unable to find anything. It's all unprecedented.

I suspect it’s an unknown - death cap poisoning is rare and any information about the differences in presentation between individuals will be rarer still.

You can be sure that if there were case studies of people who definitely ingested death caps and were fine and didn’t even have liver damage (based on liver function tests) Mandy and his team would have found them.

I actually think the prosecution handled this well. There was such a stark difference when how well Erin was and how sick the others were - why introduce wriggle room for the defence. Once you start exploring how long it would take for toxins to reach the system it opens the door for other variables like weight, vomiting, dose etc to be discussed. And I doubt there’s been enough research on death cap toxin poisonings to really know.

I think it’s enough to point out that Erin was pretending to be sick while her guests were dying.

 

[MaxDecimus13]

Finally, Max sees it like we do!

Welcome to the dark side Max

I hate to break it but my opinion hasn't really changed...

The prosecution have done a really compelling job of pointing out that the meal was pre-organised and then EP purposely put DC mushrooms into the meal for everyone but her own. That's essentially the case right there.

There are aspects I don't agree with, mainly with what she was hoping would happen and what was hoping for afterwards etc. But they've done an excellent job with what they have.

 

[Way2Invested]

Colin Mandy's closing argument so far seems to be: This was a poorly thought through murder, therefore it can't be murder.

 

[Kemug]

She's probably working around the clock on it, IMO. I imagine she would be utterly exhausted!

RSBM
I hope that she has a very supportive partner/family member/friend to put meals in front of her, and take care of everything.

 

[Neet_Mc]

No. It was an older case: Ristevski, Ascot Vale. The detective i spoke to, was working on that case, at the time!!! Small world.

Specific things I recall raised in WS chat in that case (about fuel usage, odometer readings etc), ended up forming part of police evidence. At the time it seemed like detectives were directly skimming WS for ideas.

 

[MrJ]

I seriously don't understand this. From the outset the judge, as well as the prosecution, explicitly said there would be no motive put forth, and it wasn't required for any verdict. So why is Mandy playing this 'no motive' defence?

 

[Ellery84]

From memory, Chris Dawson 'enjoyed' about the same level of support as we are seeing here for Erin Patterson.

Cliff, I always enjoy hearing your expertise on the Dawson case. Just here to say that I appreciate you.

I didn’t realise Dawson experienced the same public sentiment as EP has. That’s interesting, to me. It gives me a lot of peace to know that CD is out of the community and in custody.

Let’s see how the jury comes back on this one!

 

[Ellery84]

I seriously don't understand this. From the outset the judge, as well as the prosecution, explicitly said there would be no motive put forth, and it wasn't required for any verdict. So why is Mandy playing this 'no motive' defence?


View attachment 595815

 

[Sarahlou]

Haha I was just about to reply to MrJ's post saying it can only be because the defense is clutching onto straws!

 

[Neet_Mc]

Just now
Prosecution dismisses Ms Patterson's explanation over phone resets

By Judd Boaz

Dr Rogers dismisses the account of Erin Patterson, who says she was forced to change and factory reset her phone due to it becoming damaged around the time of the lunch.

Ms Patterson says her son had dropped the phone in the mud during a school camp, leading her to reset it on August 3 following the lunch.

“How convenient,” Dr Rogers says wryly.

Dr Rogers says Erin Patterson kept using her usual mobile phone “despite her claim that the phone wasn’t cutting it anymore”.

She also pre-empts a possible defence argument that Ms Patterson is simply the kind of person who likes changing her phone often.

“This is very different to taking steps to hiding a phone from homicide detectives during an investigation,” Dr Rogers says.

The extent of EPs lies are just amazing. I’d be curious to know if the son had even gone on a camp at the suggested time or if she just completely fabricates everything even when it could be proven false easily.

 

[L_B]

From memory, Chris Dawson 'enjoyed' about the same level of support as we are seeing here for Erin Patterson.

Pretty sure most thought Gerad Baden-Clay did it too