Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #14 *Arrest*

[Moll]

I think you are referring to a different way of detecting---In other words, you are right that the impact of the death caps is detectable after 48 hours, as you described. The patients are severely unwell.

But the OP meant "was the death cap toxin detectable in blood tests of victims after 48 hours?"

And that answer is NO.

​

ScienceDirect.com
https://www.sciencedirect.com › topics › amanita-phalloi...


The amanita toxin is eliminated by the kidneys and usually is undetectable in the plasma 48 hoursafter ingestion.

Thanks! I knew I was no expert....

 

[MaxDecimus13]

It is really hard for me to understand, why she allegedly put death caps in those 5 Beef Wellington's.
Mandy summed it up very well, she'd be taking her kid's grandparents away, she'd be losing her kids, her house, her very life by doing so. But she did it anyway and it is hard to understand why.

All I can come up with, if she is guilty as charged, is she might be mentally unwell, and has no real control over her unhinged emotions?

There are all sorts of possibilities. She could have been a thrill killer or trying to plan the perfect crime. She could have been secretly incredibly bitter and small slights built up to the point where she had secret hatred for these people. She could have just been 'seeing what would happen' if she tossed a few DC in a meal.

OR she didn't actually plan to kill them all... a lot of the issues make more sense if you consider that this could have been a poisoning gone wrong.

Motive - exploiting their illness to make herself look better/get closer to them
Slapdash planning - never thought she would be a suspect so didn't need to be careful
Panicked response - once DC were quickly found, realised they would look towards the meal so tried to hide evidence

The main objection is based on the fact that people cannot believe that Erin wouldn't have planned a dosage and been fully aware of their level of poison. IMO this is based on the flawed premise that Erin is meticulous, careful and thorough. No matter what the theory, we have evidence that this definitely isn't true all the time:

Theory - Killed all 3/4/5 on purpose: didn't consider she would be suspected despite cooking a meal that killed people, posted many photos of mushrooms on the dehydrator, organised a meal that everybody knew about, paid for things with credit cards and ID etc

Theory - Wanted to poison them: didn't fully understand how effective DC would be

Theory - She is innocent: came up with some truly absurd sounding lies, didn't check if Enrich did gastric band surgery despite having months to check, didn't throw out the manual when hiding evidence

One thing I would add is that most of us here suspect that she already took part in a previous serious poisoning. Maybe that was always her aim then, and her aim this time?

 

[JBowie]

One thing I would add is that most of us here suspect that she already took part in a previous serious poisoning.

As do police, hence the charges of attempted murder of Simon Patterson, since withdrawn (with or without prejudice not known at this time).

 

[MaxDecimus13]

As do police, hence the charges of attempted murder of Simon Patterson, since withdrawn (with or without prejudice not known at this time).

I suspect they didn't have enough evidence or thought it wouldn't help the trial.

It's another one of those incredible coincidences that follows EP around.

 

[Jake18]

Protection might have avoided this kind of witness because—- there isn’t human research on DC where a scientist could say: …
Dose of X amount after 1 hour would have ABC effect on body
After 2 hours
Vomiting would leave this amount in body..

There are no lab tests poisoning people, and DC poisoning rare and often the person dead so can’t give good evidence.

Info available:
People weights, ages & health, mushroom potency, amount eaten …. All just based on interviews with no facts.

As there is no “factual scientific tested” data. Defense would easily get a witness to admit that there is not firm science about vomiting and defense would be stronger.

I agree with this. All Mandy would have to do is get a witness to admit it was theoretically “possible” - even if highly unlikely - for vomiting at a set time, in an overweight woman who only ate a tiny amount of her meal to reduce toxin absorption and it absolutely strengthens the defence case.

Mandy wanted this to be brought up. He obviously couldn’t find his own medical witness to say that yes, it’s possible to eat death caps but be fine and not have abnormal liver functions, but he wanted to poke holes in any testimony of a prosecution medical/toxicology witness.

The prosecution’s side-by-side timeline of Erin’s (supposed) illness course and that of the guests was very effective.

 

[JBowie]

I suspect they didn't have enough evidence or thought it wouldn't help the trial.

It's another one of those incredible coincidences that follows EP around.

I can see how it would have confused the murders case. In fact I'm not sure how the prosecution could have conducted the case with those charges still attached.

IMO, it's a great pity that SP did not bring his suspicions to police earlier.

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

Do we know anything about the alleged prior attempts on SP besides the dates and locations?

 

[Smelly Squirrel]

3.47pm

Panic and premeditation: Defence argues the former, not the latter, led his client to the tip​

By​

A few times now, Colin Mandy, SC, has centred on the prosecution’s narrative around Erin Patterson’s dehydrator.

The dehydrator’s purchase was openly shared on social media, specifically within a true crime group. This suggested a lack of concealment, Mandy told the jury.

Mandy said the dehydrator itself was not disposed of after the mushrooms were dehydrated, or well before the lunch.

“Instead, its purchase was broadcast on social media.”


Instead, he asked jurors to focus on timing. His client disposed of her dehydrator a day after she had a confrontation about the cooking appliance with her estranged husband in hospital.

The timing of the disposal spoke volumes of her state of mind at the time, he said. He also pointed out that his client had driven to the tip in her own car, and had done the transaction using her own details.

“It can only have been panic, not because she is guilty, but because that’s what people might think,” Mandy said.

Erin Patterson murder trial day 33 as it happened: Accused mushroom cook lied to authorities and in witness box, prosecutor says in concluding argument; defence argues no intent, panic explains actions

Inside courtroom four in Morwell, Patterson, on trial for murder, listened intently as prosecutor Nanette Rogers, SC, concluded her closing argument, and defence barrister Colin Mandy, SC, commenced his.

www.theage.com.au

Mandy tries to have it both ways here. He says that when she openly shares the dehydrator purchase on social media that shows her innocence. But then says that her attempt to conceal the dehydrator by dumping it while clumsily using her own car and details also shows her innocence.

But what it actually consistently shows is that she is not smart about hiding a crime.

 

[MaxDecimus13]

Mandy tries to have it both ways here. He says that when she openly shares the dehydrator purchase on social media that shows her innocence. But then says that her attempt to conceal the dehydrator by dumping it while clumsily using her own car and details also shows her innocence.

But what it actually consistently shows is that she is not smart about hiding a crime.

Exactly. What he describes as a panicked response in not noticing the CCTV and paying herself, might instead be a pattern of clumsy behaviour that is manifest in the buying of the dehydrator and leaving her address etc.

 

[BreakingNews]

I am younger than Erin but growing up in rural NSW we were taught never to touch, let alone eat any wild mushrooms. It doesn't make sense to me why people would do this if they weren't very certain, IMO. It's like eating a typan snake without knowing how to properly cut out the venom sack, IMO.

Growing up country to me meant eating the fruits of the land (or starve). Field mushrooms are so delicious. We learnt about what to eat and not eat at a very young age. MOO

 

[Deleted member 363451]

IMO, as an amateur psychologist, she has major mental issues.

If, as I strongly suspect, she is on the NPD spectrum, then she will require some serious attention.

NPD is a lifelong condition, meaning there is no cure. However, it is not a static condition and can be managed through therapy and, in some cases, medication. -- Dr Google

She may also have BPD.

 

[MrJ]

Good morning all! I will be busy for most of the defence closing today so someone else will have to cover the ABC live blog. Thank you

 

[BreakingNews]

It's the nature of the job. Like plumbers, barristers deal with crap all day and they charge accordingly.

It seems to be a game to them. That is why I believe trials are not about getting at the truth. It's how well the game of law is played. MOO

 

[JBowie]

It seems to be a game to them. That is why I believe trials are not about getting at the truth. It's how well the game of law is played. MOO

In one sense it is a game between opposing sides, like a debate.

As for getting at the truth, IMO it would be very interesting to be present during pretrial negotiations about what evidence will be admissible and what will not.

 

[Megnut]

She may also have BPD.

NPD, BPD, I lovingly refer to the accumulation of personailty disorders as the dreaded Cluster F, all of 'em.

What's hard to understand is that, if she has any anti social personality disorders, she can't turn them on and off. It's truly how she sees the world. If she were standing on your oxygen canula, she'd complain about the discomfort to her foot.

JMO

 

[Way2Invested]

I can see how it would have confused the murders case. In fact I'm not sure how the prosecution could have conducted the case with those charges still attached.

IMO, it's a great pity that SP did not bring his suspicions to police earlier.

I personally think that not being allowed to have both sets of charges tried as a single case weakened the prosecutions case considerably and may be responsible for the disjointed feel of the evidence presented. I believe the change probably occurred during or as a result of pretrial hearings/directions which then rendered a large part of the prosecution's evidence inadmissible just weeks out from the trial.

I think we saw a glimpse of what they had been planning on presenting during the phone/digital records examination... when the prosecution focussed on Erin's movements on a seemingly random date well before the lunch and also drew attention to death cap mushroom searches on iNaturalist back in May 2022. Relying on searches that long ago to prove premeditation could feel like a long bow to draw IF you have to work on the assumption that Erin didn't use that information for another year. IMO that's not what the prosecution believes and it makes more sense when the dates of the attempted murder charges are factored in.

MOO

 

[MsMarple]

Did Mr. Mandy address why Erin’s kids didn’t get sick from eating the mushroom soaked meat? I don’t recall.

 

[Megnut]

IMO EP expected SP to be there, even after he dared tell her no.

Remember all those duplicate ingredients?

Maybe the effort EP went to was in preparing for two full lunches.

6 people at the table. Super sketch if only one survives, the cook.

But what if three people die and three live?

Mr. Mandy prattled on Don and Heather (do I have the right pairing, the couple that wasn't her BIL and MIL?) Inviting them tempers the appearances of an intervention of some sort. A draw to pull on all the guests.

Leaves SP with a support system, the nice couple with whom she has no issues...

I sense that she was ANGRY that SP didn't show up, didn't give her the opportunity to send him home with a single serving of BW.

I don't think any of it went down like she expected it to, whatever her expectations may have been, including but not limited to the luncheon and the hospital aftermath.

JMO

 

[BreakingNews]

In one sense it is a game between opposing sides, like a debate.

As for getting at the truth, IMO it would be very interesting to be present during pretrial negotiations about what evidence will be admissible and what will not.

I was in the court room for most of Baden Clays trial and pretrial. Indeed very interesting.

 

[SouthAussie]

Did Mr. Mandy address why Erin’s kids didn’t get sick from eating the mushroom soaked meat? I don’t recall.

Not that I have read anywhere. Mandy mentioned the children a couple of times ... but not why they didn't get sick, as far as I have seen. It appears that he may have left that subject alone.


Mandy points to the “imperfect” evidence of nurse Kylie Ashton who told the trial the Patterson’s children eating the beef wellington leftovers was first discussed at her initial presentation at Leongatha hospital.

Mandy says this evidence was not supported by other medical witnesses and it was inconceivable doctors knew about the children at the initial presentation as they would have taken urgent action.

He says the nurse may have found out about the children later and made a mistake when she testified.

Erin Patterson mushroom trial day 33 – as it happened

This blog is now closed

www.theguardian.com

"Erin Patterson had a motive to keep these people in her world so that they could keep supporting her and her children," he said.
"And there's absolutely no doubt that Don and Gail had a great relationship with [their grandchildren] … absolutely no doubt that Erin was devoted to her children.

Prosecutor details Erin Patterson's 'lies upon lies' to jury

Erin Patterson's defence barrister tells the jury in her triple-murder trial that the "devoted" mother had no motive to deprive her children of their "wonderful" grandparents.

www.abc.net.au