Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #15 *Arrest*

[Salah11]

If she is found innocent I wonder how Simon will feel and not only the concern of him being poisoned again the risks to his children. I doubt many people would be accepting any dinner invites anytime soon

MOOO

 

[Deleted member 363451]

She scrunches up her face as though she's crying, but I don't see any tears.

Even Erin was searching for them.

 

[Deleted member 363451]

I'm not certain what happened by any stretch. The vast majority of people are going off 2 theories:

1) it was an accident

2) she planned to kill all 4 and probably 5 had Simon attended

I find issues with both of these that are extremely difficult to overcome. The top one requires a considerable amount of misfortune on the part of EP with a significant degree of lying.

I've explained many times my issues with number 2. It seems extremely illogical for a number of reasons nonemoreso than the lack of planning after the murder. I argue that there is a 3rd possibility:

3) she wanted to poison them but underestimated the effect it would have

The reason I find this appealing is because it covers a lot more of the problems that 1 and 2 have. It explains the lack of planning, the lack of motive etc whilst still explaining all of the lies and coincidences etc. I've also indicated that most of us suspect she actually did poison Simon a year earlier.

Of course like any theory there are issues. However, I find it easier to believe that EP underestimated the effect of DC than that she killed 4 people based on some pretty mild grievances and then didn't think she would be suspect number

Of course like any theory there are issues. However, I find it easier to believe that EP underestimated the effect of DC than that she killed 4 people based on some pretty mild grievances and then didn't think she would be suspect number 1.
find it easier to believe that EP underestimated the effect of DC than that she killed 4 people based on some pretty mild grievances and then didn't think she would be suspect number 1.

She absolutely could have done yes, it doesn't mean I think she did.

The only thing we can be sure of is that Erin's account is full of lies and has been since day one. She might have been a keen forager, but she might not have and only ever done it once.

She's been in self-preservation mode since the first moment DC were identified, and trying to spin a yarn to either cover her guilt or make her appear less culpable.

There is no way that she accidentally picked Death Caps, sorry.

 

[Deleted member 363451]

In these days between, I've been coming across little inconsistencies here and there for both the prosecution and defence.

The defence implied that because EP is a true crime nut she therefore would have been much more careful in disposing of evidence etc.

However, I realised today that her dumping of the dehydrator is counter to this. They claim it was in a panic, but not only did she have some time to think about it, she wouldnt forget obvious things that true crime nuts know like CCTV and signing your name etc. If I suddenly found a body in my car and decided to dispose of it, I doubt I would forget that CCTV would track where I was driving and that forensics would be able to get DNA from my car just because I was panicked.

Maybe she was just slapdash or thought the police wouldn't do the job properly.

Maybe she was just slapdash or thought the police wouldn't do the job properly.

Which is why she thought that she could get away with murder IMO.

 

[Deleted member 363451]

I'm not certain what happened by any stretch. The vast majority of people are going off 2 theories:

1) it was an accident

2) she planned to kill all 4 and probably 5 had Simon attended

I find issues with both of these that are extremely difficult to overcome. The top one requires a considerable amount of misfortune on the part of EP with a significant degree of lying.

I've explained many times my issues with number 2. It seems extremely illogical for a number of reasons nonemoreso than the lack of planning after the murder. I argue that there is a 3rd possibility:

3) she wanted to poison them but underestimated the effect it would have

The reason I find this appealing is because it covers a lot more of the problems that 1 and 2 have. It explains the lack of planning, the lack of motive etc whilst still explaining all of the lies and coincidences etc. I've also indicated that most of us suspect she actually did poison Simon a year earlier.

Of course like any theory there are issues. However, I find it easier to believe that EP underestimated the effect of DC than that she killed 4 people based on some pretty mild grievances and then didn't think she would be suspect number 1.

Of course like any theory there are issues. However, I find it easier to believe that EP underestimated the effect of DC than that she killed 4 people based on some pretty mild grievances and then didn't think she would be suspect number 1.

Maybe that's the reason you think that she's innocent? It's easier for you to believe that based on your morality and set of values. Just remember we are talking about Erin and you have no idea at all what she is capable of or not capable of.

 

[MsMarple]

If she is found innocent I wonder how Simon will feel and not only the concern of him being poisoned again the risks to his children. I doubt many people would be accepting any dinner invites anytime soon

MOOO

Yeah it seems like whatever verdict is returned Erin will be looked at with suspicion for a long time. Fair or not IMO it would be difficult to ignore even if she accidentally foraged the death caps. Who could trust her?

 

[Deleted member 363451]

Yeah it seems like whatever verdict is returned Erin will be looked at with suspicion for a long time. Fair or not IMO it would be difficult to ignore even if she accidentally foraged the death caps. Who could trust her?

If she is found innocent, Simon should apply for full-time custody of the children and have an Intervention Order out against her. The children should NOT be allowed to be with their mother unsupervised.

 

[Deleted member 194006]

I'm not certain what happened by any stretch. The vast majority of people are going off 2 theories:

1) it was an accident

2) she planned to kill all 4 and probably 5 had Simon attended

I find issues with both of these that are extremely difficult to overcome. The top one requires a considerable amount of misfortune on the part of EP with a significant degree of lying.

I've explained many times my issues with number 2. It seems extremely illogical for a number of reasons nonemoreso than the lack of planning after the murder. I argue that there is a 3rd possibility:

3) she wanted to poison them but underestimated the effect it would have

The reason I find this appealing is because it covers a lot more of the problems that 1 and 2 have. It explains the lack of planning, the lack of motive etc whilst still explaining all of the lies and coincidences etc. I've also indicated that most of us suspect she actually did poison Simon a year earlier.

Of course like any theory there are issues. However, I find it easier to believe that EP underestimated the effect of DC than that she killed 4 people based on some pretty mild grievances and then didn't think she would be suspect number 1.

I think what may be happening (which is causing some of your doubt) is that you’re viewing Erin through the lense of being a rationale, intelligent and normal person. Therefore, concluding that some of her behaviors and motives don’t make sense, which leads you to have some level of reasonable doubt.

If you’ve known anyone with NPD, (which IMO, I’m quite certain that Erin has), you’ll know that a lot of their thoughts, actions and behaviors don’t make much sense to the rest of us.

I know someone with NPD and see a lot of commonality between Erin and this person. They are both slighted extremely easily, need to feel like a victim, search for sympathy and attention (e.g., made up cancer diagnosis), and most importantly become quite revengeful when they feel their ego has been hurt. Simon’s family “hurt” Erin in the worst way you could possibly hurt someone with NPD - depriving them of attention and making them feel like they don’t matter anymore, among other things.

It wasn’t uncommon for this person I know to cheat on his wife if she had some sort of normal argument with him at home. That’s the level of escalation you’re working with. NPD’s can be extremely spiteful, and often carry out their ‘revenge’ quietly so as not to appear as a bad person which would hurt their outward image to others.

The most important thing to mention about a narcissist is that they think they are smarter than EVERYONE. It’s actually quite amusing listening to a narcissist lie, because their lies can be so obvious, but they still think they are pulling the wool over everyone else’s eyes.

When you look at Erin through the lense of NPD, all of her actions made sense. Although she was intelligent, she didn’t plan for after the fact because she honestly didn’t think anyone was clever enough to unravel her plan. Although the motive does not seem large enough to us, NPD’s hold onto everything and it becomes magnified in their eyes. They also often don’t feel guilt because they feel their victims “deserved” what happened to them. Tbh, I often still think Erin feels that Simon “deserved” to lose half of his family because of “all” he has done to her.

I mean, she actually told everyone on the stand that she was booked in for gastric bypass surgery and thought no-one would fact check it. She dumped a dehydrator at the tip and paid with her card thinking no-one would ever know. I don’t think we should view these things as “out of character” because she is so intelligent. But rather, a clear indicator that, although she is of above average intelligence, her NPD has worked against her in the case.

All of the reasons above are why motive is not required to prove intent in the eyes of the law. Yes, motive can help prove intent, but a lack of it (in the eyes of normal people) does not mean there was no intent. It’s left off the table because humans are complex and diverse and many times their motives won’t be understood or can be rationalized by the rest of us.

All IMO.

 

[SouthAussie]

Maybe she was just slapdash or thought the police wouldn't do the job properly.

Which is why she thought that she could get away with murder IMO.

Erin may have underestimated how quickly Homicide detectives would be called in - or that Homicide would have been called at all - that "small town cops" will call in Homicide when they want more experience on the case. Her police interview on 5th August was with Homicide detectives.


Evidence of Ms Patterson's lies to homicide detectives was shown to the Supreme Court of Victoria this week, as 21 minutes of her police interview was played to the jury.

The date on the footage was August 5, 2023 ......

At the time of the interview, doctors suspected four of her lunch guests had ingested highly-toxic death cap mushrooms. Don Patterson was sliding towards death and his wife Gail and sister-in-law Heather Wilkinson had already passed. Heather's husband Ian was in a critical condition in intensive care.

Erin Patterson lied about mushroom foraging but her lawyers argue she's no killer

Erin Patterson admits lying to police about key details after a deadly lunch, but her defence claims panic — not malice — drove her actions, arguing there's no proof she intended to kill.

www.abc.net.au

 

[Deleted member 363451]

I think what may be happening (which is causing some of your doubt) is that you’re viewing Erin through the lense of being a rationale, intelligent and normal person. Therefore, concluding that some of her behaviors and motives don’t make sense, which leads you to have some level of reasonable doubt.

If you’ve known anyone with NPD, (which IMO, I’m quite certain that Erin has), you’ll know that a lot of their thoughts, actions and behaviors don’t make much sense to the rest of us.

I know someone with NPD and see a lot of commonality between Erin and this person. They are both slighted extremely easily, need to feel like a victim, search for sympathy and attention (e.g., made up cancer diagnosis), and most importantly become quite revengeful when they feel their ego has been hurt. Simon’s family “hurt” Erin in the worst way you could possibly hurt someone with NPD - depriving them of attention and making them feel like they don’t matter anymore, among other things.

It wasn’t uncommon for this person I know to cheat on his wife if she had some sort of normal argument with him at home. That’s the level of escalation you’re working with. NPD’s can be extremely spiteful, and often carry out their ‘revenge’ quietly so as not to appear as a bad person which would hurt their outward image to others.

The most important thing to mention about a narcissist is that they think they are smarter than EVERYONE. It’s actually quite amusing listening to a narcissist lie, because their lies can be so obvious, but they still think they are pulling the wool over everyone else’s eyes.

When you look at Erin through the lense of NPD, all of her actions made sense. Although she was intelligent, she didn’t plan for after the fact because she honestly didn’t think anyone was clever enough to unravel her plan. Although the motive does not seem large enough to us, NPD’s hold onto everything and it becomes magnified in their eyes. They also often don’t feel guilt because they feel their victims “deserved” what happened to them. Tbh, I often still think Erin feels that Simon “deserved” to lose half of his family because of “all” he has done to her.

I mean, she actually told everyone on the stand that she was booked in for gastric bypass surgery and thought no-one would fact check it. She dumped a dehydrator at the tip and paid with her card thinking no-one would ever know. I don’t think we should view these things as “out of character” because she is so intelligent. But rather, a clear indicator that, although she is of above average intelligence, her NPD has worked against her in the case.

All of the reasons above are why motive is not required to prove intent in the eyes of the law. Yes, motive can help prove intent, but a lack of it (in the eyes of normal people) does not mean there was no intent. It’s left off the table because humans are complex and diverse and many times their motives won’t be understood or rationalized by the rest of us.

All IMO.

Very well explained.

The most important thing to mention about a narcissist is that they think they are smarter than EVERYONE. It’s actually quite amusing listening to a narcissist lie, because their lies can be so obvious, but they still think they are pulling the wool over everyone else’s eyes.

I found a photo of my ex on an online matchmaker site once and it was clearly him. When I showed it to him, he denied that it was him and said that it was his doppelganger He was a narcissist and lied constantly. I think only someone who has been involved with a narcissist or has known a narcissist could recognise that Erin is indeed one. It was obvious to me once she took the stand.

Narcissistic personality disorder - Symptoms and causes

www.mayoclinic.org

 

[Deleted member 363451]

What happened at Erin Patterson's mushroom murder trial in week eight | ABC NEWS​

 

[Deleted member 194006]

Very well explained.

The most important thing to mention about a narcissist is that they think they are smarter than EVERYONE. It’s actually quite amusing listening to a narcissist lie, because their lies can be so obvious, but they still think they are pulling the wool over everyone else’s eyes.

I found a photo of my ex on an online matchmaker site once and it was clearly him. When I showed it to him, he denied that it was him and said that it was his doppelganger He was a narcissist and lied constantly. I think only someone who has been involved with a narcissist or has known a narcissist could recognise that Erin is indeed one. It was obvious to me once she took the stand.

Narcissistic personality disorder - Symptoms and causes

www.mayoclinic.org

Yes! I really hope that one of the jurors has dealt with one before - you’ll never really understand a narcissist unless you’ve seen them in action.

 

[Eloise]

Yeah it seems like whatever verdict is returned Erin will be looked at with suspicion for a long time. Fair or not IMO it would be difficult to ignore even if she accidentally foraged the death caps. Who could trust her?

even if Simon's 'illnesses' and his family's deaths were totally accidental, she's clearly on track for being named world's worst cook. I doubt she's going to find it easy to have a normal social life ever again even if found not guilty

 

[Deleted member 363451]

Yes! I really hope that one of the jurors has dealt with one before - you’ll never really understand a narcissist unless you’ve seen them in action.

I'm sure that at least one of the jurors would have dealt with a narcissist before, but it's the ones who haven't which is the worry...

 

[Deleted member 363451]

even if Simon's 'illnesses' and his family's deaths were totally accidental, she's clearly on track for being named world's worst cook. I doubt she's going to find it easy to have a normal social life ever again even if found not guilty

She'll have to move from Leongatha and even Phillip Island would be far too small a place for her to live.

 

[Monstradamus]

I think what may be happening (which is causing some of your doubt) is that you’re viewing Erin through the lense of being a rationale, intelligent and normal person. Therefore, concluding that some of her behaviors and motives don’t make sense, which leads you to have some level of reasonable doubt.

If you’ve known anyone with NPD, (which IMO, I’m quite certain that Erin has), you’ll know that a lot of their thoughts, actions and behaviors don’t make much sense to the rest of us.

I know someone with NPD and see a lot of commonality between Erin and this person. They are both slighted extremely easily, need to feel like a victim, search for sympathy and attention (e.g., made up cancer diagnosis), and most importantly become quite revengeful when they feel their ego has been hurt. Simon’s family “hurt” Erin in the worst way you could possibly hurt someone with NPD - depriving them of attention and making them feel like they don’t matter anymore, among other things.

It wasn’t uncommon for this person I know to cheat on his wife if she had some sort of normal argument with him at home. That’s the level of escalation you’re working with. NPD’s can be extremely spiteful, and often carry out their ‘revenge’ quietly so as not to appear as a bad person which would hurt their outward image to others.

The most important thing to mention about a narcissist is that they think they are smarter than EVERYONE. It’s actually quite amusing listening to a narcissist lie, because their lies can be so obvious, but they still think they are pulling the wool over everyone else’s eyes.

When you look at Erin through the lense of NPD, all of her actions made sense. Although she was intelligent, she didn’t plan for after the fact because she honestly didn’t think anyone was clever enough to unravel her plan. Although the motive does not seem large enough to us, NPD’s hold onto everything and it becomes magnified in their eyes. They also often don’t feel guilt because they feel their victims “deserved” what happened to them. Tbh, I often still think Erin feels that Simon “deserved” to lose half of his family because of “all” he has done to her.

I mean, she actually told everyone on the stand that she was booked in for gastric bypass surgery and thought no-one would fact check it. She dumped a dehydrator at the tip and paid with her card thinking no-one would ever know. I don’t think we should view these things as “out of character” because she is so intelligent. But rather, a clear indicator that, although she is of above average intelligence, her NPD has worked against her in the case.

All of the reasons above are why motive is not required to prove intent in the eyes of the law. Yes, motive can help prove intent, but a lack of it (in the eyes of normal people) does not mean there was no intent. It’s left off the table because humans are complex and diverse and many times their motives won’t be understood or can be rationalized by the rest of us.

All IMO.

Yes, ^^^ this! She thinks she's more intelligent than LE, health authorities, etc than everyone else. All classic signs of a Covert Narcissist. I've seen it before, and the behaviour beggars belief, and sends my moral compass spinning. The lying, self preservation, the perceived slights, the thriving on chaos. The "good" in me questions how someone could be capable of carrying out such a heinous act, surely it's inconceivable that something like this could happen, imo.
Yet here we are.

 

[Jake18]

If she is found innocent, Simon should apply for full-time custody of the children and have an Intervention Order out against her. The children should NOT be allowed to be with their mother unsupervised.

If she is found not guilty though, there’s no legal reason for her not to have access to the children. This is partly why I’m hoping she is found guilty.

 

[Deleted member 194006]

Yes, ^^^ this! She thinks she's more intelligent than LE, health authorities, etc than everyone else. All classic signs of a Covert Narcissist. I've seen it before, and the behaviour beggars belief, and sends my moral compass spinning. The lying, self preservation, the perceived slights, the thriving on chaos. The "good" in me questions how someone could be capable of carrying out such a heinous act, surely it's inconceivable that something like this could happen, imo.
Yet here we are.

Yes! Especially the whole “I reset my phone because I wondered if the police were silly and left it connected to the internet.” Another clear example of how she believes others are not as clever as she is. In this case, unfortunately, it was true.

 

[Monstradamus]

Yes! Especially the whole “I reset my phone because I wondered if the police were silly and left it connected to the internet.” Another clear example of how she believes others are not as clever as she is.

The master of her own twisted universe, imo. Sad, really.
I've interacted with her in the past in some True Crime groups, starting around 6 years ago. From my observations EP was an arrogant bully. (And some of her FB "friends" / Prosecution witnesses) I've tried to look at this case without my own bias, shutting out the background noise and irrelevant details. Honestly, how could someone do something like this to people she supposedly loved? Only she knows the answer.

 

[BreakingNews]

⅔

I took "house, not an apartment" as arrrogance, rather than pedantry. In Australia a house usually costs much more than an apartment.

I didn't see that as arrogance. She was just making a statement. I probably would have said the same if I lived in a house. An apartment assumes you are surrounded closely by others. No so much a house. So in a house you might not have the support systems you might have in an apartment block. JMO