Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #15 *Arrest*

[Susjay]

However the onus is on the prosecution to prove her guilt. It's not up to the defence to prove her innocence.

A character reference from someone in the local community to support what accused and Mandy were saying would have strengthened the defence though. All we have is the word of the accused.

 

[Megnut]

I don't think the accused will ever be found innocent. Not guilty, maybe, but never innocent.* And certainly never to be trusted again.

*Editing to clarify -- won't be found innocent in a court of law. Defense doesn't prove innocence. The Prosecution either satisfies BARD for the jury or the don't. Resulting in guilty/not guilty.

jmo

 

[Ellery84]

I don't think the accused will ever be found innocent. Not guilty, maybe, but never innocent. And certainly never to be trusted again.

jmo

They’re innocent until proven guilty, right? They don’t need to be found innocent as the burden of proof is on the Crown.

 

[Megnut]

They’re innocent until proven guilty, right? They don’t need to be found innocent as the burden of proof is on the Crown.

That's the point I was trying to make. But apparently not clearly. In my head I was responding to others who were wording it as if the jury could find her innocent. They can't. Only guilty, not guilty, whether BARD or not.

'Not guilty' is not the same as 'didn't do it'.

That is all.

JMO

 

[Salah11]

Forever known as the person who killed people with mushrooms. If she gets found guilty at least when she gets out time will have moved on and it won’t be as hostile.

IMO

 

[Monstradamus]

Forever known as the person who killed people with mushrooms. If she gets found guilty at least when she gets out time will have moved on and it won’t be as hostile.

IMO

If she's found guilty she will die behind bars. She's 50, and 3 x life sentences for Murder, and 1 x 25 years for Attempted Murder. There's no getting out of that, imo.

 

[katydid23]

I've always said there is a chance that EP is innocent and telling lies to conceal embarrassing truths about herself.

If she is innocent, she clearly invited them to the meal to tell them about health problems and then announced it was cancer. She would have done this because she's been exposed as a pathetic attention-seeking liar. However, she couldn't accept this being out so tried to invent a less-damaging version of it which ended up tying her in knots.

But that ignores all of the ugly facts concerning the death caps----how did they end up inside at least 4 individual hand made Beef Wellingtons?

I cannot think of any way that it could have happened accidentally.

SHE picked those death caps. She is an intelligent woman who claimed to know about foraging. But then she told the jury that she was on a walk and saw some wild mushrooms BY SOME OAK TREES and picked them and brought them home.

First of all, every description I have seen warning about Death Caps have included OAK TREES as red flags---do not pick wild mushroom growing under Oaks.

I don't believe for a moment that 'Air Traffic Controller/Math Teacher/Accountant',Erin, did not know that simple warning about wild mushrooms. She claims she had books about her hobby of foraging.
She is going to blindly pick wild mushrooms to add to her children's food, without knowing how to identify safe ones?

IF she did forage for them, why didn't she use any of those delicious wild mushrooms while they were fresh? She had all those delicious fresh mushrooms which she LOVED so much, but she chose to dehydrate them all and turn them Into a powder?

And then she dumps them in with funny smelling pungent dried mushrooms from an unknown Asian market, in Tupperware, which she SUPPOSEDLY adds to her very special, expensive gourmet luncheon?

NONE of the above makes any sense. It is not believable, IMO.

And then when her guests get very sick, she does not tell the doctors about the foraged mushrooms? If it was truly an innocent mistake she could have come forward and she wouldn't be incarcerated right now.

Also, she faked being sick way too early. She initially told Simon she was feeling nauseous on the late afternoon of the luncheon.

WHY did she feed her kids the leftover meat, after she claimed she felt so unwell and her lunch guests were already in the hospital? How many parents would do that?

And if we are to believe her claims that she didn't even remember about the wild mushrooms, WHY didn't she rush her kids to the hospital when advised to by the doctors?

I do not believe that the defense was that convincing overall. She told sooooooooo many lies and they went beyond just her being a pathetic attention driven liar, imo. She is also a gas lighter, Injustice Collector and very controlling pathological manipulator. imo

 

[303gmf]

He was arrested today if you didn't know.

Such excellent news!!!

 

[katydid23]

Being behind, I've not long heard the last of the defence. I wanted to look at the 4 ridiculous propositions that Colin Mandy claimed they could dismiss to see how convincing they are:

1) it didn't matter that EP had no motive

Whilst legally they don't need a motive, it is quite convincing circumstantial wise. However, he wants to have his cake and eat it when he says we shouldn't say that everybody would act the same in a certain situation but he's making out like nobody would act in a way that we can't fully comprehend.

2) the cancer lie should be rejected as she only told them after the meal

This and number 3 are very similar IMO. There is an issue with this as it was heavily implied that there was a serious health issue when there wasn't. It is pretty clear there was a fabricated reason for the meal. It doesn't have to be for murder purposes, but denying it is weak.

3) it was absurd that she thought the cancer lie would be taken to the grave

I think the prosecution really dropped the ball with this one. He's absolutely right, there was plenty of time after the meal for news of Erin's cancer to get out, especially to Simon.

I don't totally agree that was absurd to say that the victims could take the cancer lie to their graves.

It is only because Simon rallied his relatives to call an ambulance and he went to pick up his Aunt and Uncle, that we know much of anything about what happened or was discussed at lunch.

If they had all stayed home that whole night and tried to treat it like the flu, they may not have had the chance to share that info with anyone.

4) the illogical claim that EP would think 4 deaths would be passed off as a strange gastro

This is another where I agree with him. EP was a true crime nut and would have known how suspicious it would look on her.

No, it might not have been 'illogical' to EP because she seems to have mental health issues. Her logic is wholly flawed.

And if she was behind Simon's mystery gastric problems, then it might have seemed logical to her that the elderly couples could believe they had the flu. It worked that way for her with Simon for months.

Another poster put up their odds of what they think will happen and I think a hung jury is most likely. I'd be going in there unsure what my final vote would be tbh. It would depend on the detailed conversations that came next. Legally, I'm not sure the prosecution has done enough.

I think the prosecution made a great closing argument. Remember, we only saw snippets. We did not experience the entire presentation. I think it was organised, comprehensive and powerful.

However, for all Mandy's pleas about ignoring what you think likely, or what looks a bit dodgy, or using speculative reasoning my hunch is that jurors will do this anyway. I've never served on a jury but I understand how humans usually act.

I think Mandy's rebuttal's fell flat much of the time. He ignored some key points, obviously, but I don't think those points were lost on the jury.

 

[mamamama9873]

A character reference from someone in the local community to support what accused and Mandy were saying would have strengthened the defence though. All we have is the word of the accused.

For sure! and the fact that no such witness was presented speaks volumes and is very damming IMO

 

[CityKid]

I recently watched Ahn’s Brush with Fame Season 4 Episode 2, Anh's Brush With Fame: S4 Lindy Chamberlain

in which Ahn Doh interviews Lindy Chamberlain whilst painting her portrait, and her viewpoint seemed to be that if she had not been found guilty and jailed, then there wouldn’t be certain laws in place that there are now in terms of protecting the innocence of innocent people.

I don’t know if she’s referring to improvements in forensics or a law but she seemed to think or believe that God had allowed her to be imprisoned for a purpose, to make the law better and more robust.

Her faith kept her going whilst in jail and she says she prayed every day.

She is really a tremendous woman and is still living her faith - quite an inspiration really.

IMO

Thank you for this link! I'll be watching that episode later.

 

[Scooby-Doo]

ABC

Interesting as well, the Testimony of a friend of Erin Patterson's son

The friend stayed the night at Erin's Leongatha home on July 28, the day before the lunch.

He recalls going to see a film with Erin's daughter and son on the day of the lunch, before returning to the house and seeing all the lunch guests.

"I don't remember what was on the plate, there were some plates in the kitchen sink, I think they were white plates," he says.

( Another vote for white plates )

 

[Megnut]

ABC

Interesting as well, the Testimony of a friend of Erin Patterson's son

The friend stayed the night at Erin's Leongatha home on July 28, the day before the lunch.

He recalls going to see a film with Erin's daughter and son on the day of the lunch, before returning to the house and seeing all the lunch guests.

"I don't remember what was on the plate, there were some plates in the kitchen sink, I think they were white plates," he says.

( Another vote for white plates )

Indeed. Because the grey dinner plates were cleared and packaged away.

Jmo

 

[Salah11]

ABC

Interesting as well, the Testimony of a friend of Erin Patterson's son

The friend stayed the night at Erin's Leongatha home on July 28, the day before the lunch.

He recalls going to see a film with Erin's daughter and son on the day of the lunch, before returning to the house and seeing all the lunch guests.

"I don't remember what was on the plate, there were some plates in the kitchen sink, I think they were white plates," he says.

( Another vote for white plates )

Grey Isn’t far off White at a quick glance and then her special Orange plate and most children are not going to be interested in the washing up and taking note of the plates.

 

[Kemug]

Definitely an inspiration. At complete opposites to the lying liar, imo. Their only similarity is that they are both women. That's where it ends.

Incidentally, talking about both of these women - we were discussing a while back who might play Erin if a movie/TV show is ever made about this case. We didn't get very far. But now I am just remembering Meryl Streep playing Lindy (whom I always thought was innocent, btw). I'm not dissing Meryl, who is a fine actress. I just thought she was totally wrong to play Lindy. IMO

 

[MaxDecimus13]

100% agree with you in the unfairness of the Lindy C-C case, @TootsieFootsie.

I would really like you to think about this key difference

In the Lindy Chamberlain case, at the time of the incident itself, the people physically present at the scene supported her, and her behaviour was seen as entirely consistent with a mother reacting to a genuine emergency.

In the first inquest, held in 1980–81, Magistrate Dennis Barritt supported Lindy’s version of events. He described her as “a caring and responsible mother”. He accepted the theory that a dingo had taken Azaria, based on forensic and eyewitness evidence at the time.

“The Chamberlains were not acting suspiciously.” – Inquest findings, 1981

It was only over time that public opinion began to turn against her due to her calm demeanor during media interviews, which the media then portrayed as suspicious. In fact, her personal faith and values meant that she deeply preferred to keep her emotional self-control in public.

To summarise the above, Lindy's behaviour did not raise suspicion to all those witnessing it first-hand. The same unfortunately cannot be said for EP.


One other key difference between the two women I would like to include here.

Lindy Chamberlain-Creighton’s behaviour since the tragedy and her wrongful conviction has been nothing but gracious and dignified, especially considering the extraordinary injustice and public vilification she endured. She has never lashed out publicly at those involved in her wrongful conviction.

Her ability to forgive, maintain poise, and advocate for truth is certainly an example for us all.

I will leave the comparisons there. Also I won't be making any further references to Lindy as I personally feel it is unfair bringing her name into this case at all.


And now will finish with this beautiful quote from a very special lady:

“You can't spend your life being bitter. You have to forgive.” — Lindy Chamberlain-Creighton

.

I suppose the takeaway that the previous poster is trying to make is that the way Lindy responded was seen as proof of her guilt when it actually wasn't.

We do see quite a lot of that in discussion about EP. She's not emotional enough, or she's fake emotional, or her cold answers are proof of psychopathy etc. When she first took the stand, people were using that she said incorrect as proof of her narcissism, until somebody pointed out she was told to answer that way.

That's clearly where the parallels end. However, surely the point that should be learned from it is that the way people speak and act isn't always what people expect and shouldn't be used as pieces of evidence in themselves.

As I said, EP has enough things to point to her guilt, that we don't need speculation of this kind.

 

[Scooby-Doo]

Indeed. Because the grey dinner plates were cleared and packaged away.

Jmo

Or thrown out.

I don't have four plates the same," Patterson said.

It seems everyone is wrong but her


**
Dr Rogers asked Patterson about evidence that Heather Wilkinson said she noticed the cook had served herself the food on a "coloured plate which was different from the rest".

"I didn't serve myself at all," she replied, before adding she wanted to "clarify" she did not own any matching sets of plates.

"Somebody would've had different plates and I don't have four plates the same," Patterson said.
Dr Rogers suggested her "whole story is untrue" about plating the food, to which Patterson replied: "You're wrong".

 

[Salah11]

I find it super strange somebody who went to all the effort of making such a fancy lunch that takes hours to prepare and cook wouldn’t have matching plates.

Moo

 

[Kemug]

I wonder if Simon would have survived if he had attended the lunch, and eaten his Beef Wellington. Because of his battle with a possible/probable poisoning not that long before, I would think he might even have been the first to die. He had been in a coma, and IIRC, had to have part of his bowel removed. Not conducive to surviving death cap poisoning, I shouldn't think.

 

[JBowie]

One other key difference between the two women I would like to include here

And one from me: AFAIK, Lindy Chamberlain never portrayed herself as a witch on a flying broomstick.