Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #15 *Arrest*

[MaxDecimus13]

As a non-Aussie, I decided to look up the location of Loch and Outrim in relation to EP to get a better idea of this part of the evidence.

It appears that Loch in particular is some distance away. I'm interested in whether EP ever accepted that she had been there and if so why she thought she might have done.

In relation to me, it is about as far as say the city of Chester. There is no way I wouldn't recall why I went there recently. I accept that distances might not translate the same in Aus but even if was 10/15km I think I'd have a very good idea. Either I'd go there so regularly to negate the evidence, or it would stick in the memory because I dont go often.

It reminds me of the Asian grocer thing. I don't buy the idea she can't remember for one minute. I presume she went for the whole 'I can't remember if I went or not' line?

 

[MaxDecimus13]

Or the some of the meat from the leftovers? Although that’s her in cover up mode, and I don’t she necessarily was at that pont.

I agree though. And it’s inconceivable that anyone would dispose of poo-stained tissues and then browse food options without washing their hands.

This might sound cruel and I don’t mean it to be: does anyone believe that a 111kg woman could successfully swat, to do a poo, effectively wipe herself in the same position and get none of the mess on her white trousers? And not even feel the need for a better wipe/clean up in the toilets?

This is highly speculative. Maybe Erin is an incredibly experienced poo-by-the-side-of-the-roader. In fact, it could be such a common occurrence her son couldn't even recall it.

 

[mamamama9873]

I don't know these cases but I'll ask are they a murder of 1 person?

If so, it is much easier for a person to convince themselves they could get away with the murder of 1 person than it is for 4 people.

I took the first one and had a look at it, and there's certainly no doubt about her guilt and she was extremely sloppy. However, she tried to poison him with fentanyl which she obviously thought would look like a drug overdose. She would potentially get huge financial and personal gain.

In comparison, what did Erin think would happen next? She's cooked a meal where 4 of them have died. She's supposed to be very intelligent but didn’t consider that when they didn't find what had caused the deaths that they would seriously investigate her and her life? It's not like she tried to pass it off as something else.

It has been explained here by many others in great depth, these are the thoughts I have formed around how she likely believed it would pan out:

She had likely poisoned Simon in the past and got away with it (suspicion only arose after the beef wellington lunch). She overestimated her skills of disguising what she had done and underestimated the skills of doctors to diagnose it. She likely wasn’t aware of death cap toxicology testing (which was fairly new at that time). The powdered mushrooms likely had a more dramatic effect than fresh death caps - the guests deteriorated very quickly - her research might have shown the likely symptoms from death caps as gastrointestinal symptoms (she likely didn’t think the lunch guests would seek medical help for it), then a false recovery period (the lunch guests never experienced that) and then an unexpected death. Erin likely believed there would be no proof to have this pinned on her and the diagnosis for the 4 deaths would be mysterious gastro.

 

[Monstradamus]

It looks more and more like she thought she was way ahead of the game and that she thought she'd planned the perfect crime, to the finest detail. Even conducted trials. But it didn't quite pan out the way she had hoped and that left her with a whole lot of explaining to do. Which she has made an absolute dog's breakfast of.

Yes, very proactive before the event, lots of meticulous research, foraging, dehydrating, powdering, planning and gaslighting to draw her guests in. Everything was in place perfectly (except for Simon, but she really tried). Her perfect BW Lunch was served with the addition of her secret ingredient, her untainted individual parcel on an allegedly different coloured plate. She had to put up with a bit of praying about her fake cancer illness from her unsuspecting guests.

It didn't go quite as she had planned afterwards, the victims going to hospital earlier than expected (thankyou Simon), Hospital staff fairly quickly onto the cause of the illness. Then she goes into reactive mode and it all goes downhill from there. Has to scramble quickly to get rid of evidence, lies to everyone including Hospital staff, Police, Child Safety, Health Authorities. Changes, allegedly hides and factory resets phones.

I agree, @Cliff Hardy. An absolute dog's breakfast. A great big one.
MOO

 

[Deleted member 363451]

This is often asserted and maybe it is true. It is certainly true for in-the-moment killings.

Off the top of my head, I struggle to think of an example where somebody has planned a murder months in advance and not considered the aftermath at all. Not only that, but there was no actual gain for them and only likely negative consequences.

There are too many examples to mention where killers have planned their crimes in advance and then carried them out.

What about those who commit massacres? They don't always just snap and act in the moment. I would guess that most of those killers plan their crimes in advance.

This is often asserted and maybe it is true. It is certainly true for in-the-moment killings.

Off the top of my head, I struggle to think of an example where somebody has planned a murder months in advance and not considered the aftermath at all. Not only that, but there was no actual gain for them and only likely negative consequences.

DBM

 

[Deleted member 363451]

If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck ... then it's on the duckery scale.

I follow Prof Sam Vaknin's channel on narcissists and I have his book Malignant Self Love: Narcissism Revisited, (some 700 pages of small type).

(Vakinin is a self-described narcissist and has made a short documentary about his mother.)

IMO (as a non-professional), given what I have read about her, EP fits fairly well one of the models that he describes -- the covert type.

Vaknin claims that parents (particularly mothers) mold narcissistic children. EPs' description of her mother as a cold, no-contact robot and her life as a child as akin to being in a Russian orphanage align with the sort of conditions that Vaknin describes as being ripe for creating narcissistic kids -- narcissism being a way of coping with the situation the child finds itself in. They create a false self.

“My mum was ultra weird her whole life,” she wrote.

“We had a horrible upbringing. Mum was essentially a cold robot.

“It was like being brought up in a Russian orphanage where they don’t touch babies.”

https://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/news/erin-patterson-shared-details-of-her-horrible-upbringing-in-revealing-2019-text-messages/news-story/64c964a2a37d52dd5193f5828beb94c2

Have you ever watched HG Tudor on YouTube? He's also very good and he's also a self-confessed narcissist.

 

[Jake18]

This is highly speculative. Maybe Erin is an incredibly experienced poo-by-the-side-of-the-roader. In fact, it could be such a common occurrence her son couldn't even recall it.

Sorry if anyone is eating - but the more you think about it the less likely the roadside poo is.

In her version, she was driving and realised she needed to go. Things would have been desperate, dire to get to that point. She remembers to take tissues and dog poo bag and runs to the bushes (that are conveniently there). Even though she’s got poo urgency she is able to take off her shoes, white trousers and underwear and place them away from splatter. She then squats, manages to hold it and not lose her balance (because that would be messy) through the evacuation and clean up which is thorough (because, white pants).

How long is she holding that squat for - five, 10 minutes?

 

[MrJ]

It's Sunday here in Australia so I think we will potentially get a verdict this week!

 

[Monstradamus]

It's Sunday here in Australia so I think we will potentially get a verdict this week!

I'm going on holidays on Wed, so it might be great timing. I'm thinking Friday might be the day.

 

[Deleted member 363451]

This is highly speculative. Maybe Erin is an incredibly experienced poo-by-the-side-of-the-roader. In fact, it could be such a common occurrence her son couldn't even recall it.

 

[Monstradamus]

Sorry if anyone is eating - but the more you think about it the less likely the roadside poo is.

In her version, she was driving and realised she needed to go. Things would have been desperate, dire to get to that point. She remembers to take tissues and dog poo bag and runs to the bushes (that are conveniently there). Even though she’s got poo urgency she is able to take off her shoes, white trousers and underwear and place them away from splatter. She then squats, manages to hold it and not lose her balance (because that would be messy) through the evacuation and clean up which is thorough (because, white pants).

How long is she holding that squat for - five, 10 minutes?

Yes, and in a Victorian winter, that's gotta be cold!

 

[Deleted member 363451]

With the poisoning theory, as with the murder theory, it is reliant on DC not being discovered. Most of us suspect that Simon was poisoned without discovery and her panicked actions started straight after DC were mentioned.

With the poisoning however, EP is far less of a suspect because she has after all gotten ill against a spectrum of illness. This is far more believable than 4 on their death beds and one person having diahorrea. Even if they hadn't found DC, she would have obviously been the prime suspect. This isn't necessarily true with poisoning, I don't think she was suspected about Simon's illness although I'll admit I'm not sure.

Without identification of the poison, there could have been a number of different possibilities, some innocent some not. There also wouldnt necessarily have been significant police involvement like there was with deaths. This is possibly naive, but not as naive as thinking 4/5 would die and you wouldn't instantly be the suspect.

Funny how all of these people, including Simon, got sick or died after eating food that Erin made and prepared for them...

 

[Monstradamus]

Incidentally, talking about both of these women - we were discussing a while back who might play Erin if a movie/TV show is ever made about this case. We didn't get very far. But now I am just remembering Meryl Streep playing Lindy (whom I always thought was innocent, btw). I'm not dissing Meryl, who is a fine actress. I just thought she was totally wrong to play Lindy. IMO

Yes, Meryl Streep is a great actress. But they should have chosen an Australian actress. You don't get more Australian than the Outback. I always believed in Lindy's innocence, I have myself been menaced by dingoes and seen what they are capable of. If they can snatch my heavy wet beach towel and run away with it, they can easily take a baby. (Found it the next day about 600m down the beach, still have it, albeit with a few holes)
My picks for who would play Erin and Simon are Magda Szubanski (if she's well enough) and Tom Gleeson.

 

[Baby baby Jane]

Sorry if anyone is eating - but the more you think about it the less likely the roadside poo is.

In her version, she was driving and realised she needed to go. Things would have been desperate, dire to get to that point. She remembers to take tissues and dog poo bag and runs to the bushes (that are conveniently there). Even though she’s got poo urgency she is able to take off her shoes, white trousers and underwear and place them away from splatter. She then squats, manages to hold it and not lose her balance (because that would be messy) through the evacuation and clean up which is thorough (because, white pants).

How long is she holding that squat for - five, 10 minutes?

Agree any woman in the jury is going to be thinking this same thing. EP might be an expert at roadside squats … liposuction gastric bands aside …. she could have excellent balance, great squattty muscles and arms long enough to reach right back at do a nice tidy clean up without her hands/wrists/cuffs ever getting soiled.

The women on the jury will be thinking this thru - trousers pushed down to ankles? Or totally off? Shoes off? Was she leaning on a tree? Or free balancing with trousers at ankles? Ready with tissues - not having to rummage while still squatting? It’s not easy and with diarrhea from poisoning …? And

She put the poo bag in the her handbag? Who does that? I would double bag, hold gingerly away from my body just like dog walkers do … and put in cargo area of car.

Furthermore … petrol stations usually have bins at the pumps, and near the door …. Why go all the way to the toilet and then not wash hands the thorough covid way? She flushed or put in sanitary bin …. whatever it was.

This roadside poo is just not true.!

 

[Monstradamus]

As a non-Aussie, I decided to look up the location of Loch and Outrim in relation to EP to get a better idea of this part of the evidence.

It appears that Loch in particular is some distance away. I'm interested in whether EP ever accepted that she had been there and if so why she thought she might have done.

In relation to me, it is about as far as say the city of Chester. There is no way I wouldn't recall why I went there recently. I accept that distances might not translate the same in Aus but even if was 10/15km I think I'd have a very good idea. Either I'd go there so regularly to negate the evidence, or it would stick in the memory because I dont go often.

It reminds me of the Asian grocer thing. I don't buy the idea she can't remember for one minute. I presume she went for the whole 'I can't remember if I went or not' line?

Everything is far away in country Australia. But I believe she had a specific reason to travel to those two out of area places. You don't just drive there for the fun of it, and you would certainly remember going there, imo.

 

[Monstradamus]

Agree any woman in the jury is going to be thinking this same thing. EP might be an expert at roadside squats … liposuction gastric bands aside …. she could have excellent balance, great squattty muscles and arms long enough to reach right back at do a nice tidy clean up without her hands/wrists/cuffs ever getting soiled.

The women on the jury will be thinking this thru - trousers pushed down to ankles? Or totally off? Shoes off? Was she leaning on a tree? Or free balancing with trousers at ankles? Ready with tissues - not having to rummage while still squatting? It’s not easy and with diarrhea from poisoning …? And

She put the poo bag in the her handbag? Who does that? I would double bag, hold gingerly away from my body just like dog walkers do … and put in cargo area of car.

Furthermore … petrol stations usually have bins at the pumps, and near the door …. Why go all the way to the toilet and then not wash hands the thorough covid way? She flushed or put in sanitary bin …. whatever it was.

This roadside poo is just not true.!

Agree. Nobody is going to achieve that great feat of engineering. Something went into that toilet bin in 9 seconds, and it wasn't tissues. A small Tupperware container, perhaps?
MOO

 

[Deleted member 363451]

Yes, Meryl Streep is a great actress. But they should have chosen an Australian actress. You don't get more Australian than the Outback. I always believed in Lindy's innocence, I have myself been menaced by dingoes and seen what they are capable of. If they can snatch my heavy wet beach towel and run away with it, they can easily take a baby. (Found it the next day about 600m down the beach, still have it, albeit with a few holes)
My picks for who would play Erin and Simon are Magda Szubanski (if she's well enough) and Tom Gleeson.

Magda Subanski. I don't think she would be well enough.

 

[Ellery84]

Thank you for this link! I'll be watching that episode later.

No worries: I really enjoyed her story, and I found her attitude and reflective viewpoint be very uplifting.

 

[Monstradamus]

Magda Subanski. I don't think she would be well enough.

"Erin, you are the weakest link. Goodbye!"
Judge's last comment next week.
MOO

 

[Deleted member 363451]

"Erin, you are the weakest link. Goodbye!"
Judge's last comment next week.
MOO