VERDICT WATCH Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #16 *Arrest*

[drsleuth]

Thanks for posting it all. You're documenting history for us!

Yep & easier to find when we need it.

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

My thoughts exactly. Also It doesn't seem that the police really knew what needed to be searched for and properly catalogued / collected during the house search. Same with the blender blaster.

I wonder... how much EP bamboozled and manipulated the local LE and then investigators?

It's possible that if she had worked in local news editorial and if she was keenly involved in the local community affairs or politics (seems likely) and was also regarded as a fairly wealthy local property / land owner (was she?) that she's played them for fools and pulled rank. She may well have known them and their families in person?

She seems like the sort who would have figured out all the local systems and institutions and contacts within those. The sort who makes regular contact to request things or mention problems.

Maybe she already regards them all as fools. Maybe they are. Perhaps that propelled her confidence to perpetrate such an outrageous crime? Maybe they were slightly on the back foot with her and behaving with caution. LE always know when a potential perpetrator under investigation can afford to bring in a big gun criminal defence barrister and it puts them on the back foot, they get cautious and inhibited. Rightly so, as they often abuse their position of power, at least in my country.

JMO MOO

 

[drsleuth]

https://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/courts-law/erin-patterson-trial-judge-set-to-continue-address-on-mushroom-cooks-alleged-incriminating-conduct/news-story/350e9e0db536328e2cf605e3d86f3b0f

Erin Patterson trial: Crown ‘overstated’ evidence in mushroom case​

Jurors in the murder trial of Erin Patterson have been directed to disregard two arguments made by the prosecution about the scientific evidence.

Justice Beale said Crown prosecutor Nanette Rogers SC had argued in her closing address the toxicological analysis of the lunch leftovers indicated the toxin found in death cap mushrooms had penetrated the small remaining piece of meat.

The judge took the jury to the evidence of Victoria’s chief toxicologist Dimitri Gerostamoulos, who said the detection of amatoxins may have indicated it penetrated the meat or that they were just present in the same sample tested.

“He wasn’t positively saying the amatoxins had penetrated the meat,” Justice Beale said.

“Dr Rogers overstated what the evidence was.”

Wow............

 

[Observe_dont_Absorb]

OMG Justice Beale is *over-riding* expert opinion now?

So, what is the point of a court hearing, expert witnesses, professional opinion?

At the same time, it is true to say that if the statement was the toxin was present in the same sample but not necessarily inside the meat of that sample, then it's not accurate to say the toxin was definitely in the meat.

 

[Scuffy35]

The children did not experience any symptoms of death cap mushroom poisoning, the court heard, with the prosecution arguing the children would have become unwell had they eaten the leftovers.

However Justice Beale told jurors to disregard this argument.

"You have no expert evidence as to if that would be the case," he said.

"You would be speculating if you were to go down that path."

Erin Patterson jury deliberations to begin next week, judge tells court

The judge in Erin Patterson's triple-murder trial has told jurors they will not begin deliberations until next week.

www.abc.net.au

I hope the jury do not disregard this argument

It is very regrettable that there was no expert witness on this, but to be instructed to disregard the possibility of cross contamination and become unwell from it seems unreasonable as it makes common sense.

Are the jurors not allowed to use common sense at all? If the judge tells the jury that they are the judges of the evidence presented, and the Jury are assumed to not be experts themselves, isn't this the same as asking them to use their common sense together with their own life experiences?

 

[JBowie]

OMG Justice Beale is *over-riding* expert opinion now?

Frankly, IMO he's essentially telling the jury to return a not guilty verdict.

 

[Kemug]

Judge Beale sure is dragging this process out, IMO.

Is he being paid by the minute?

 

[Kemug]

Yeh, let's just disregard all of the evidence and let her walk. This judge is unreal.

If she walks, she will be more (allegedly) arrogant than ever. MOO

 

[drsleuth]

Seems like Erin & Mr Mandy's tactic of not answering yes or no to questions, was a smart move for them.

Just give wishy washy answers, never answer a question directly ....................& do multiple re-sets of your phone & you will be sweet & than vanish your regular phone, that just needed to be replaced after everyone was on to you...............easy !

And all will be good ( maybe )

 

[Kemug]

Meanwhile, Justice Beale reminds the jury, the defence questioned why would Erin Patterson would go to all that trouble.

RSBM
Well for a start, she didn't have much else to do. Her children were in school, she didn't work, and apparently she seldom bothered to cook a proper meal.

 

[Detechtive]

When I mentioned this some time ago, was it you, or maybe someone else said that the judge may not have allowed for rebuttal evidence?

If it was due to the fact that the prosecution did not ask to present rebuttal evidence, then I think it is a colossal mistake that hey have made, and compounds the mistake of not having an expert testify on these in the standard part of the trial where the prosecution presents its case.

If the prosecution loses this case, I think it will be due to not having expert witness to testify on these two aspects. of DC poisoning. Those being that there would be dangerous contamination from the mushroom duxelles into the meat and whether vomiting has any impact on the health outcome if poisoned.

IMO

Yes, there is no automatic right to call rebuttal witnesses - permission from the judge is usually required. You must demonstrate that the evidence is genuinely rebuttal, not part of your original case. Rebuttal evidence cannot be used to “patch up” or improve your case in chief.

In other words, they may not have been allowed to call a rebuttal witness on this topic even though they couldn't have anticipated that EP would say she vomited post-meal, because it could have been seen as introducing new evidence to 'patch up' the case in chief.

I agree with you - a colossal error that this was overlooked. IMO

https://classic.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/num_reg/sccpr2015n103o2015514/

 

[Detechtive]

Justice Beale moves on to factory resets Erin Patterson agreed she carried out on Phone B. She said one was done by her son.

Ms Patterson has previously said she reset the phone again because she knew there were photos of mushrooms and the dehydrator on it. Her defence team said she panicked and didn't want investigators to see them.

Erin Patterson gave evidence that she didn't know where Phone A was when police conducted a search of her home.

She told the jury Phone A went into a skip bin, which is something she occasionally did.

She also mentioned feeling puzzled when she noticed Phone A hadn't been seized during the police search of her home.

Judge continues instructions for jury in Erin Patterson triple-murder trial — as it happened

The judge in Erin Patterson's triple-murder trial is continuing to deliver his final instructions to the jury. Ms Patterson is accused of deliberately poisoning her relatives by serving them a meal containing death cap mushrooms. Follow the proceedings as it happened.

www.abc.net.au

I remember seeing the skip bin in media photos and was hoping the police would seize the contents. Looks like that didn't occur.

 

[Kemug]

Maybe those that are still awake, after Justice Beale finishes his directions, will form the jury

But they need 12!

 

[potr]

I wish the prosecution called a rebuttal expert about this! And also about whether vomiting the meal hours post-lunch would have affected the toxicity if Erin had consumed the Death Caps!

the prosecution did not get to give a rebuttal case...thats why Erin ambushed them with many things such as talking about foraging and the "weight loss" "surgery" in her evidence - because it was after them. They could not introduce new evidence only find ways to question her in such a way to refute her evidence

 

[Detechtive]

I remember seeing the skip bin in media photos and was hoping the police would seize the contents. Looks like that didn't occur.

Maybe they did seize it and found no phone in it, but didn't introduce that into evidence. Did Erin claim to put it in a skip bin in her cross?

 

[Kemug]

Justice Beale said Patterson gave evidence that she was changing her phone because she didn’t want Simon to be able to contact her and that she carried out three of the four factory resets.

RSBM
I imagine that Simon would be only too happy to never hear from her again. MOO

 

[MaxDecimus13]

Since that phone data regarding the possible Outtrim trip was mentioned by Dr Rogers I was sure that she was going to bring this theory up during Erin's cross, but maybe she decided against it given the phone data was vague.

Theory - Erin attended hospital on the Monday morning and discovered that doctors had already figured out death caps were involved, AND were insistent on Erin being admitted for treatment & blood tests.

Knowing that she wasn't at all sick, Erin panicked, checked herself out of hospital and drove to Outtrim looking for more deathcaps to micro-dose herself.
I can't think of any other reason for her to rush to Outtrim instead of starting treatment. It certainly wasn't to pack a ballet bag or have a nap.

If she had succeeded and found more deathcaps, she would have soon developed real symptoms, perhaps the three deaths of the other lunch guests would have been assumed an innocent accident and we wouldn't be here.


.

Very interesting theory. Other than dumping evidence, I couldn't think of a reason why she could have done.

 

[Scuffy35]

Very interesting theory. Other than dumping evidence, I couldn't think of a reason why she could have done.

But she would have or shoukd have known there would be no more DC's to be found at that time of year.

 

[Kemug]

However, I did not expect the judge to methodically dismiss a lot of it. His instruction that it was up to the jurors to either “accept or reject” expert evidence, saying they did not need to accept it more than they would other evidence simply because it was provided by an expert, is bizarre IMO.

Under what circumstances would a juror feel capable of rejecting the evidence of an expert witness, such as a doctor? Nuts!

RSBM
The next time we are following a trial with Judge Beale, please remind me to ignore all the experts who testify, they are a complete waste of time.

 

[Detective Willy]

It’s amazing in modern times, how much time and effort and taxpayer $ it will take to get a guilty verdict for someone who appears to be so obviously guilty IMO.