Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #3

[jjenny]

Right. 29 is quite into adulthood. It’s relevant.

Yes, kind of hard to describe that as a youthful indiscretion.

 

[SMK777]

Yes, of course. I was simply trying to lay out the various scenarios which could have led to this poisoning and to describe some of the stumbling blocks for each one.

I hope no one thought that I was presenting these as new ideas that I just came up with. Apologies if that wasn't clear.



This is true. But in terms of someone else poisoning the meal, I think it's worthwhile to consider how it could have happened.

I see a few different possibilities:

1. One of the guests brought additional food or drink which was poisoned - Who would have been the target, then? Maybe not Eric because it doesn't seem she consumed this item. Also, I would think that Erin would have mentioned in her statement if others had brought dishes. Still, if someone else did poison the meal, I think this is probably the most likely scenario.
2. One of the guests poisoned the Wellington or another dish prepped by Erin - Less likely in my opinion just because it would have been difficult to count on gaining unfettered access to the food before they ate. And again, how did Erin avoid the toxin?
3. Another person known to the family who wasn't at the dinner poisoned the food - Who was the target? Could it have been Erin or even the children? If so, it backfired spectacularly. Did they count on Erin using those exact ingredients to prepare this exact dish? I think that too much could go wrong in any real world scenario unless the perpetrator just didn't care about collateral damage.
4. A stranger broke into the house and poisoned the food - I won't say too much about this one, except that I consider it far-fetched.

I hope it's clear that I'm not trying to dismiss alternative theories. I'm more than willing to entertain them. But I also want to scrutinize them instead of just saying that anything is possible.

These scenarios are not impossible, but under Occam’s razor they are far less likely than that EP herself poisoned the lunch, and prevented herself and children from eating it for obvious reasons.

 

[MsMarple]

Something I keep coming across while searching for more information on death cap mushrooms is how the odor differs between fresh ones and dried ones.

Apparently as death caps age the smell transitions from sweet to acrid, giving off a strong odor of ammonia. One paper describes dried death caps odor as similar to cat urine.

So IMO it’s more likely a home cook would mistakenly use fresh death caps in a dish than dried ones which have an unpleasant odor. I certainly wouldn’t use stinky mushrooms.

It’s not a smoking gun, more like another reason to doubt EP’s story. JMO

 

[JLZ]

Something I keep coming across while searching for more information on death cap mushrooms is how the odor differs between fresh ones and dried ones.

Apparently as death caps age the smell transitions from sweet to acrid, giving off a strong odor of ammonia. One paper describes dried death caps odor as similar to cat urine.

So IMO it’s more likely a home cook would mistakenly use fresh death caps in a dish than dried ones which have an unpleasant odor. I certainly wouldn’t use stinky mushrooms.

It’s not a smoking gun, more like another reason to doubt EP’s story. JMO

"Can emit an unpleasant odour of cat urine" is what the linked paper says. So perhaps not always?

 

[MsMarple]

"Can emit an unpleasant odour of cat urine" is what the linked paper says. So perhaps not always?

Perhaps not. Just one more possibility to consider.

 

[LondonBloke]

The more I read about and see pictures of Beef Wellington the more I fancy giving one a go.

 

[jjenny]

The more I read about and see pictures of Beef Wellington the more I fancy giving one a go.

I've never tried it but it sounds delicious (without death cap mushrooms, of course).

 

[MoominMama222]

I think the whole Patterson family were said to be foragers. Including EP.
It sounds as if one of the 3 who died might have also told the paramedic about that.


On Tuesday, a friend of the family told The Daily Mail that Ms Patterson was an experienced forager who was known to pick wild mushrooms around the Gippsland region.

The outlet quoted the friend as saying she was “very good at foraging” and identifying different mushroom varieties.

“The Patterson family [including Erin and Simon] would pick mushrooms each year when they were in season,” the friend said. “It’s very common for people to go mushroom picking around that area.”

It comes after it was revealed that a paramedic who had a final conversation with one of the three guests who died passed the details on to police.

https://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/mushroom-poison-victims-final-words-to-paramedic/news-story/13ea59d2bcb3947bb5e9d2503819e8ba

This is important, I think. Even experienced forgers can accidentally pick and eat Death Cap Mushrooms. Now we are also hearing more about how the toxins are not equal in every piece, and it also sounds like you do need to ingest them. So, someone who maybe didn't trust the foraging, could have even pushed their mushrooms aside. Or someone may not have wanted to eat a lot of the mushrooms. I don't know.

Why did she dump the dehydrator? Why lie? Did she lie? I don't even know if that's accurate. If so, was it out of fear and panic? Or was it murder? It certainly seems like murder--but I'm not convinced. Why murder them? She had money. She didn't want to reconcile. It's all so perplexing. IMO MOO

 

[MoominMama222]

Here is daily mail not under a pay wall about her drunk driving escapade. 29 year old isn't exactly a teenager either.

"The charges included failing to stop a vehicle after an accident, failing to give a name or address after causing property damage, using an unregistered vehicle on a highway and failing to give her name or address when property was damaged."

Mushroom chef crashed car and fled the scene

Erin Patterson, 48, lost her licence for 30 months in 2004 and was fined $1,000 for crashing her vehicle in the eastern Melbourne suburb of Glen Waverley.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Oh my gosh. That certainly speaks to her character even more. Not good.

 

[Forest_Wood]

I wonder what made them specify the symptoms were consistent with Death Cap mushrooms. I would think the symptoms for all poisonous mushrooms would be similar, affecting the gastrointestinal tract in a similar fashion.

In this book I'm reading called How To Forage For Mushrooms Without Dying, the author talks about a study by the American Association of Poison Control Centers that showed 400 out of 457 adult patients with wild-mushroom poisoning had actually eaten edible mushrooms that were mishandled.

They were perfectly edible mushrooms, but mishandled before eating by being stored in a hot car for too long or left out overnight on the counter so bacteria grew on them.

He goes on to say that safe food handling is essential -- to store them in a paper bag, keep them in the fridge, and always cook them before serving.

I believe it was reported she had some mushrooms stored in a cabinet.

 

[SouthAussie]

This is important, I think. Even experienced forgers can accidentally pick and eat Death Cap Mushrooms. Now we are also hearing more about how the toxins are not equal in every piece, and it also sounds like you do need to ingest them. So, someone who maybe didn't trust the foraging, could have even pushed their mushrooms aside. Or someone may not have wanted to eat a lot of the mushrooms. I don't know.

Why did she dump the dehydrator? Why lie? Did she lie? I don't even know if that's accurate. If so, was it out of fear and panic? Or was it murder? It certainly seems like murder--but I'm not convinced. Why murder them? She had money. She didn't want to reconcile. It's all so perplexing. IMO MOO

I can't imagine why EP lied. I also can't imagine why she dumped the dehydrator. And I can't imagine why she was discussing the dehydrator with her children at the hospital (when her ex apparently asked her if she used that to poison the lunch guests).

The dehydrator, seemingly, would have been used to dehydrate the store-bought button mushrooms. As the Asian market mushrooms were already dried.

But now that I know that EP has retained a top criminal lawyer, I am guessing that he is trying to sort her story out so that it makes some kind of sense to the police and the Dept of Health.

 

[kittythehare]

The more I read about and see pictures of Beef Wellington the more I fancy giving one a go.

Here you go.
Not complicated at all.

https://www.taste.com.au/recipes/beef-wellington-3/a218467d-be76-42f1-9ddf-894f2b32a8eb

eTA even simpler version

How to make beef wellington | Felicity Cloake’s masterclass

Perfect for New Year’s Eve, or any special occasion dinner, yet surprisingly simple to make

www.theguardian.com

 

[Seni]

I wonder what made them specify the symptoms were consistent with Death Cap mushrooms. I would think the symptoms for all poisonous mushrooms would be similar, affecting the gastrointestinal tract in a similar fashion.

In this book I'm reading called How To Forage For Mushrooms Without Dying, the author talks about a study by the American Association of Poison Control Centers that showed 400 out of 457 adult patients with wild-mushroom poisoning had actually eaten edible mushrooms that were mishandled.

They were perfectly edible mushrooms, but mishandled before eating by being stored in a hot car for too long or left out overnight on the counter so bacteria grew on them.

He goes on to say that safe food handling is essential -- to store them in a paper bag, keep them in the fridge, and always cook them before serving.

I believe it was reported she had some mushrooms stored in a cabinet.

Thank you. I think that is a very important consideration to bear in mind. Also IF, EP's kitchen higiene was deficient, there may have been problems with the paté, which is a high risk product in terms of food poisoning. This could explain delays in the toxicology results.

Sorry for more speculation!

Just IMO

 

[SouthAussie]

I wonder what made them specify the symptoms were consistent with Death Cap mushrooms. I would think the symptoms for all poisonous mushrooms would be similar, affecting the gastrointestinal tract in a similar fashion.

Presumably, it is rapid liver damage.
It is mushrooms that contain amatoxin that cause liver damage leading to death.

Victoria has two types of poisonous mushrooms. The Death Cap, which contains amatoxin. And the Yellow Staining mushroom, which contains phenol.

Amatoxin gets to the liver quickly. Phenol deaths are usually respiratory deaths, and can be liver failure deaths after prolonged exposure.

Poisonous mushrooms warning issued for Victoria

Victorians are being warned of the dangers of consuming wild mushrooms, as wet and cooler weather provides the ideal growing conditions for certain types of mushrooms.

www.health.vic.gov.au

Acute Liver Failure Caused by Amanita phalloides Poisoning

Mushroom poisoning is a relatively rare cause of acute liver failure (ALF). The present paper analyzes the pathogenesis, clinical features, prognostic indicators, and therapeutic strategies of ALF secondary to ingestion of <i>Amanita phalloides</i>, which represents the most common and deadly...

www.hindawi.com

Yellow-staining Mushroom – Agaricus xanthodermus

Royal Botanic Gardens Victoria plays a leading role in the conservation of plants through biodiversity research, programs to protect rare and threatened plants, and the study of habitats. This work is supported by education and visitor programs about the importance of plants to life. The...

www.rbg.vic.gov.au

https://www.dcceew.gov.au/environment/protection/npi/substances/fact-sheets/phenol

 

[Forest_Wood]

Presumably, it is rapid liver damage.
It is mushrooms that contain amatoxin that cause liver damage leading to death.

Victoria has two types of poisonous mushrooms. The Death Cap, which contains amatoxin. And the Yellow Staining mushroom, which contains phenol.

Amatoxin gets to the liver quickly. Phenol deaths are usually respiratory deaths, and can be liver failure deaths after prolonged exposure.

Poisonous mushrooms warning issued for Victoria

Victorians are being warned of the dangers of consuming wild mushrooms, as wet and cooler weather provides the ideal growing conditions for certain types of mushrooms.

www.health.vic.gov.au

Acute Liver Failure Caused by Amanita phalloides Poisoning

Mushroom poisoning is a relatively rare cause of acute liver failure (ALF). The present paper analyzes the pathogenesis, clinical features, prognostic indicators, and therapeutic strategies of ALF secondary to ingestion of <i>Amanita phalloides</i>, which represents the most common and deadly...

www.hindawi.com

Yellow-staining Mushroom – Agaricus xanthodermus

Royal Botanic Gardens Victoria plays a leading role in the conservation of plants through biodiversity research, programs to protect rare and threatened plants, and the study of habitats. This work is supported by education and visitor programs about the importance of plants to life. The...

www.rbg.vic.gov.au

https://www.dcceew.gov.au/environment/protection/npi/substances/fact-sheets/phenol

Thank you for your explanation!

 

[MsMarple]

Thank you. I think that is a very important consideration to bear in mind. Also IF, EP's kitchen higiene was deficient, there may have been problems with the paté, which is a high risk product in terms of food poisoning. This could explain delays in the toxicology results.

Sorry for more speculation!

Just IMO

We’re all speculating so no worries.

IMO the Health Department and the doctors considered all known factors like the 4 ex relatives not getting better after treatment for gastric distress and all four having liver failure. Both the timing of symptoms plus liver failure are symptoms of death cap poisoning.

And I suspect that once the Health Department learned about the mushrooms in their lunch it was enough to diagnose *suspected* mushroom poisoning. Of course it could change and hopefully we’ll hear if something does.

Bacteria can impact the liver, often in patients already compromised such as having cirrhosis. But I’d be surprised to learn all four had some preexisting liver conditions though.

I think it’s more about collecting all the circumstantial evidence and coming up with the most logical diagnosis. Often that’s all doctors can do. Sometimes the autopsy will support it.

For me personally I think it’s exactly what doctors and LE think, that these poor people were poisoned by death cap mushrooms.

Accidentally or intentionally? Who knows? I hope their loved ones will get answers soon.
MOO

 

[bearbear]

i think the only reason to throw the dehydrater is if it was used to knowingly dehydrate dc mushrooms or maybe something illegal like opium poppy or cannabis? or it was broken?

 

[al66pine]

Victims' Activities Before Lunch. No Need to Trace?

There’s no need to trace the victim’s’ activities leading up to the lunch. The lunch was what poisoned them....

snipped for focus. @SMK777
Respectfully disagreeing about no need to trace.

If LE does no tracing, def. atty may trace and learn circumstances which could lead to reasonable doubt re guilt.
For ex., what if def. atty/barrister uncovered evd. showing, that on a.m. of lunch day (or day before) at a communal meal, all four victims had ingested a food which commonly causes food poisoning?
Perhaps a cause the hosp(s) did not test for?

Not saying this likely happened but may be a possibility & argument the prosecutor should prepare for.

If the person's actions were reckless or intentional, I hope whoever is charged w the homicides & poisoning is convicted.
imo

 

[SouthAussie]

Here you go.
Not complicated at all.

https://www.taste.com.au/recipes/beef-wellington-3/a218467d-be76-42f1-9ddf-894f2b32a8eb

eTA even simpler version

How to make beef wellington | Felicity Cloake’s masterclass

Perfect for New Year’s Eve, or any special occasion dinner, yet surprisingly simple to make

www.theguardian.com

Translates to "keep and use all of the toxic liquid". If Death Cap mushrooms were used in this case.

Meanwhile, soak the porcini in 150ml boiling water for 20 minutes, then drain, reserving the soaking liquid for the sauce. Squeeze any excess liquid from the mushrooms back into the soaking liquid, then finely chop them.

 

[SouthAussie]

i think the only reason to throw the dehydrater is if it was used to knowingly dehydrate dc mushrooms or maybe something illegal like opium poppy or cannabis? or it was broken?

Well, she didn't say it was broken. Just that she dumped it because she didn't want to lose custody of her children.


In the statement she admitted she had lied to investigators when she told them she had dumped it at the tip “a long time ago”, the ABC reports.

She said she was at the hospital with her children “discussing the food hydrator” when her estranged husband, Simon Patterson, asked: “Is that what you used to poison them?” Patterson said she had panicked and dumped the dehydrator at the tip, worried she might lose custody of her children.

Victorian woman at centre of suspected mushroom poisoning says she also went to hospital after eating meal

Erin Patterson tells police she bought the fungi from a supermarket chain and an Asian grocery store

www.theguardian.com