Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #5 *Arrest*

[investikater]

I've seen and heard a few comments along the lines of that it couldn't be true that they were from a shop because other people would have been poisoned.

Logically it seems to me that's not necessarily true.

Mushrooms tend to grow in groups - for example Fairy Rings - and foragers tend to pick a group at a time.

It's plausible for there to have been only one punnet or bag of dodgy mushrooms.

It's also possible there could have been more sold, and they are still sitting in someone's pantry or freezer, or they went off and were discarded.

 

[kittythehare]

I've seen and heard a few comments along the lines of that it couldn't be true that they were from a shop because other people would have been poisoned.

Logically it seems to me that's not necessarily true.

Mushrooms tend to grow in groups - for example Fairy Rings - and foragers tend to pick a group at a time.

It's plausible for there to have been only one punnet or bag of dodgy mushrooms.

It's also possible there could have been more sold, and they are still sitting in someone's pantry or freezer, or they went off and were discarded.

The button mushrooms bought from the supermarket are grown under controlled circumstances.
But, of course, some malfeasant could have popped in a punnet of poison shrooms for their own bizarre reasons.

The dried mushrooms allegedly purchased from the Asian store may be imported.
We simply do not know.
We don't even know the name of the toxic mushroom or when or where it was ingested.

This has indeed been a trial by the most toxic Tabloid media I have ever encountered in any country in the world.

I don't know what the truth is.
I do know that I will not be led by the tabloids.

 

[investikater]

The story though holds no value when she can’t remember where she brought them.

Just thew a ethic community under the bus and then claimed amnesia over the actual shop she brought from.

Yes that is dodgy isn't it.

I can think of 3 HYPOTHETICAL scenarios.

HYPOTHETICAL 1 that's the best poi could come up with under pressure, random or maybe some bias coming out

HYPOTHETICAL 2 poi chose that on purpose knowing that people can be biased and knowing a lot about mushrooms she would know #3 - very manipulative and calculating POSSIBILITY and kind of genius if so

HYPOTHETICAL 3 it's true
<modsnip - no link to statement of fact>
a) they migrate a lot - a new area is dangerous to foragers
b) foraging is a normal part of a lot of Asian cultures and cuisines
c) death caps aren't found in Asia
d) death caps look like straw mushrooms which are hugely foraged and farmed in asia and used extensively in Asian cuisines
Plus; Straw mushrooms are often used dried

 

[investikater]

But, of course, some malfeasant could have popped in a punnet of poison shrooms for their own bizarre reasons.

I hadn't even thought of that POSSIBILITY * facepalm * of course
I remember previous incidents.
the strawberries - didn't that turn out to be a disgurnted picker?
the pain pills - was that a guy who was creating a crime to solve?
And there were those buffets - I don't know why she did that?
Gosh now im afraid all this press coverage has given some loon ideas.

The dried mushrooms allegedly purchased from the Asian store may be imported.
We simply do not know.

yeah its really hard to get stuff into Australia, but occasionally mistakes are made

 

[katydid23]

Again I wasn't saying you were cherrypicking, I was saying the journalist cherrypicked from the friend who cherrypicked from the original material.

Your point about sour cherries is valid.

I dunno though, eeryone has moments when they briefly act out of character and say things they wouldnt normally or regret afterwards.
I feel like if you recorded every moment of a human life, and then edited it down, only keeping the worst bits, most humans would come across very different to how they really are.

But are these examples of her briefly acting out of character? Or are they examples that reveal her true character?

Four people were sent to her home to try and reason with her, negotiate with her, concerning her upcoming divorce settlement. And 3 of them mysteriously died, one is just now recovering. Was it a coincidence? Was it bad luck? Or is there more to it?

 

[jjleroche]

Are you refering to anything in particular here? I'm unfamiliar with any experts who say it's easy.

In some of the quite early threads IIRC it was mentioned. I'll look for the posts investikater.

 

[investikater]

Imho, she went and got the mushrooms from under the trees that grow out there. We all know here in Victoria, never eat mushrooms from under trees unless you know what you're doing. Mushies from a paddock, all good. We used to go mushy picking every year.

I mean its by far not the worst rule of thumb I've heard. Just so you know it's not foolproof though. Here is an example (though possibly at least partially fictional)

JANA HOCKING: How a meal with mushrooms from our farm turned nasty

JANA HOCKING: By now you've probably heard the tragic story of the three people who died of suspected mushroom poisoning after a family lunch in Victoria last week.

www.dailymail.co.uk

 

[Oona]

I hadn't even thought of that POSSIBILITY * facepalm * of course
I remember previous incidents.
the strawberries - didn't that turn out to be a disgurnted picker?
the pain pills - was that a guy who was creating a crime to solve?
And there were those buffets - I don't know why she did that?
Gosh now im afraid all this press coverage has given some loon ideas.

yeah its really hard to get stuff into Australia, but occasionally mistakes are made

Yes sometimes mistakes are made but Food Standards Australia and government health authorities respond very swiftly to investigate and mitigate any risk to the public when these mistakes or contaminations are identified.

There were no recalls or warnings to the public about imported or local mushrooms in this case.

 

[katydid23]

I've seen and heard a few comments along the lines of that it couldn't be true that they were from a shop because other people would have been poisoned.

Logically it seems to me that's not necessarily true.

Mushrooms tend to grow in groups - for example Fairy Rings - and foragers tend to pick a group at a time.

It's plausible for there to have been only one punnet or bag of dodgy mushrooms.

It's also possible there could have been more sold, and they are still sitting in someone's pantry or freezer, or they went off and were discarded.

OK, so hypothetically, some forager found a tiny group of death caps and sold them to a market, where EP was unlucky enough to purchase them.

And then, months later according to her, she used the dried death caps in a homemade Beef Wellington.

According to articles we have seen posted on this thread, the mushroom juices would have been fully absorbed by the beef and the crust ---so every part of that meal would be very poisonous. Even if you tried to scrape off the mushrooms, the rest of the meal would still have absorbed the deadly toxins.

So EP made this Beef Wellington with the Death Caps she purchased ----and there were 7 humans plus a dog that could have been poison victims in that house. And the ONLY people who were harmed were the four guests who came to negotiate with her about her upcoming divorce situation.

That seems kind of unlikely, that she bought toxic mushrooms, had them for months. And then randomly the 4 guests are the ones victimised. JMO

 

[ch_13]

So EP made this Beef Wellington with the Death Caps she purchased ----and there were 7 humans plus a dog that could have been poison victims in that house. And the ONLY people who were harmed were the four guests who came to negotiate with her about her upcoming divorce situation.

That seems kind of unlikely, that she bought toxic mushrooms, had them for months. And then randomly the 4 guests are the ones victimised. JMO

snipped.

And Erin can't remember the location she purchased the mushrooms.
And the whole batch was used up and packaging disposed of so the mushrooms can't be traced.
And as the purchaser as well as cook she had both means and opportunity.
And there's no other store-bought mushrooms have been found to be contaminated.
And she attempted to get rid of a dehydrator and later lied about it.
And she reportedly has a history of foraging.

Is it possible all this happened and Erin is completely innocent? Of course. But to explain away her involvement you have to stack a bunch of coincidences and unlikely circumstances together. Bad luck can only go so far. With every new revelation, it just becomes harder and harder for me to believe that she wasn't somehow complicit.

I'm not claiming it's 'proof beyond a reasonable doubt'. That will have to wait until the police investigation is concluded. However, I think the preponderance of the evidence that's publicly available to date suggests that she bears responsibility to some degree.

 

[Charlot123]

I've seen and heard a few comments along the lines of that it couldn't be true that they were from a shop because other people would have been poisoned.

Logically it seems to me that's not necessarily true.

Mushrooms tend to grow in groups - for example Fairy Rings - and foragers tend to pick a group at a time.

It's plausible for there to have been only one punnet or bag of dodgy mushrooms.

It's also possible there could have been more sold, and they are still sitting in someone's pantry or freezer, or they went off and were discarded.

Well, one thing people are asking, is, how easy is it to grow death caps amidst button caps? Not at all, because death caps grow at the bottom of the tree. They prefer oaks.

The chef who moved to Australia from China, where straw mushrooms grow, has obviously made an honest mistake. He didn't notice that the mushrooms he collected in AU grew on the tree, not on the ground, like straw mushrooms. And - the man was supporting a family with two kids back home. He came to AU to earn money. He was the first to die from a dinner prepared for himself and his friends. RIP, Lee.

To consider: the same types of fungi look different at different continents. Yellow boletus looks different in US as compared to Europe. So for all immigrants to other continents who are into foraging locally, it makes sense to make own FBs and forums, on preferred media, in own languages, to help identify mushrooms that are poorly known to them. I think foraging is in fashion, it is walking with purpose, and we don't need accidents. Meetups could be a good way to learn, too.

But: all of it is so different from EP's story. She was local, she was into foraging, the first thing you learn back home is how death cap and amanita muscaria look like.

As to the Asian market, I see two possibilities: 1) mushrooms were grown back in Asia, dehydrated, grinded and imported (incredibly low chance of infestation by death caps - it is commercial growth); 2) mushrooms grown in AU and sold in Asian market (same thing; mushroom plantation and forest are very different places); 3) unlikely - locally foraged mushrooms gathered and sold in a store. Why unlikely? Because foraging is, 5 hours of walking, finding 5 mushrooms, making a photo, cleaning them for 3 hours, preparing and eating for 2 minutes. Too expensive, and not a way to make profit commercially.

This is where death caps grow

https://www.woodlandtrust.org.uk/trees-woods-and-wildlife/fungi-and-lichens/deathcap/#:~:text=It%20can%20be%20found%20in,affected%20by%20eating%20deathcap%20mushrooms.

Here is how a mushroom plantation looks like

UK mushroom growing uses 100,000 m³ of peat a year – can we do better?

Peat bogs are an important carbon store, so mushroom growers are searching for a way to grow their produce on other substrates

www.newscientist.com

There are two types of Asian mushrooms that traditionally were grown by inoculation into tree roots, but even for them, technology is changing.

 

[al66pine]

Easy or Difficult to Identify Death Caps? Who to Believe?

Three Mushroom - Identifying smart phone apps FAILED to identify Amanita phalloides in 33%, and 40%, and 73% of the photos submitted, IIUC,* per linked article in a medical journal.

Conclusion from the article:
"Mushroom identification applications... at present, are not reliable enough to exclude exposure to potentially poisonous mushrooms when used alone."
IOW, don't depend on apps alone to decide whether to eat, imo.

Even if a forager uses all three apps simultaneously to try to identify mushrooms, there's still a significant chance of error. Fatal error.

Maybe extensive, intensive foraging experience over the years in a given geographical area trumps these apps. IDK. Admittedly I'm assuming that these apps are/should be more accurate than human memory often is.

But w these failure rates in three separate apps, per this source, imo Death Caps are DIFFICULT to identify. YMMV.

__________________________________________
The Boring Bits Supporting ^

SOURCE
"A comparison of the accuracy of mushroom identification applications using digital photographs"

A comparison of the accuracy of mushroom identification applications using digital photographs - PubMed

Mushroom identification applications may be useful future tools to assist clinical toxicologists and the general public in the accurate identification of mushrooms species but, at present, are not reliable enough to exclude exposure to potentially poisonous mushrooms when used alone.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

WHO wrote article & calculated failure rates?
Three people affiliated w-
* Victoria's Poisons Information Centre,
* Emergency Dept in Austin Health, the hospital which provides the "only Victorian-wide service for... liver transplant[6] and is the state referral centre for toxicology."
* Royal Botanic Gardens Victoria.
Imo, higher credentials than some "experts" quoted in MSM articles & repeated in thread.

WHERE did they say it?
In a scientific medical journal, Clinical Toxicology, published in Mar. 2023 and e-published in pubmed.com .

WHEN did they collect data?
2020-2021. IOW, not stale data, imo.

WHICH mushroom -identification apps did they review?
See link, as this post is too long. Again.

 

[jjleroche]

Here is what makes me so suspicious of EP. There were EIGHT potential poisoning victims at her home that day.

The 4 victims who became ill, and the 4 that didn't-----which were EP, her 2 kids and their big Labrador.

I've had a lot of Labradors and German Shepherds over the years. They LOVE them some beef. Anytime I've ever cooked a big beef dinner, my dogs were given yummy scraps.

Hard for me to believe that after 7 people ate servings of that big beef wellington, there were NO scraps given to that big ol Lab? She scraped all the plates right into the trash leaving none for the doggie? My dog would have been intently staring through the back of my head, waiting for some beef scraps.

8 mouths were potential poison victims that day---but only the 4 guests were poisoned . The other 4 were unscathed. I find that highly suspicious.

Interesting poiint katydid23, which hadn't occurred to me previously.

The "intently staring through the back of my head, waiting for some beef scraps" action (even though it's not, strictly speaking, an "action" ) is uncanny and sure feels like an "action".

I've sometimes wondered whether dogs could be telekinetic (like in the movie "Carrie", but for good purposes, sorta...) JMO

 

[MoominMama222]

I think it's reasonable to imagine that she made beef wellington with a mix of store bought mushrooms, dried from the Asian food store, and her own foraged mushrooms and the latter accidentally included death cap and that is the focus of her lying and throwing away the dehydrator. She has a history of making bad choices when she is in trouble (the car accident), so to me, this seems to fit with her character.

 

[kittythehare]

I think it's reasonable to imagine that she made beef wellington with a mix of store bought mushrooms, dried from the Asian food store, and her own foraged mushrooms and the latter accidentally included death cap and that is the focus of her lying and throwing away the dehydrator. She has a history of making bad choices when she is in trouble (the car accident), so to me, this seems to fit with her character.

one DUI 20 years ago when she was 29, single and not a mother is not a history of bad choices.
It was a single event and unconnected to the wild accusations being levelled at her in 2023.

 

[kittythehare]

Interesting poiint katydid23, which hadn't occurred to me previously.

The "intently staring through the back of my head, waiting for some beef scraps" action (even though it's not, strictly speaking, an "action" ) is uncanny and sure feels like an "action".

I've sometimes wondered whether dogs could be telekinetic (like in the movie "Carrie", but for good purposes, sorta...) JMO

Lots of people do not feed dogs scraps. .

 

[MoominMama222]

one DUI 20 years ago when she was 29, single and not a mother is not a history of bad choices.
It was a single event and unconnected to the wild accusations being levelled at her in 2023.

Oh I agree that the media frenzy has been shameful. I'm inclined to think she is innocent of intentionally killing her family and guests. I just wonder about throwing away the dehydrator and how that might come into play. Why she might possibly lie if indeed she did lie. We really don't know anything at all. There are so many rumors being reported as facts.

 

[katydid23]

one DUI 20 years ago when she was 29, single and not a mother is not a history of bad choices.
It was a single event and unconnected to the wild accusations being levelled at her in 2023.

Does it matter if she was single or had children?

She was twenty nine. Not a teenager or a 20 yr old. She was 29, which is supposedly a mature, fully formed adult.

She made a lot of very poor choices during that single event, which preceded the hit and run itself. Driving an unregistered car, drinking to twice the legal limit and driving recklessly happened before the actual hit and run incident.

I don't know that it was totally unconnected to this new accusation. It may be connected in that her temperament and personality is one in which she goes into denial, and obstructs the truth when feeling pressured.

 

[katydid23]

Lots of people do not feed dogs scraps. .

And lots of people do. I wouldn't expect her to give her dog mushrooms or the pastry outer layer. But many people give their large dogs beef or chicken scraps with the dogs meal for the protein.

I know not everyone does, but she lives in a rural area. Most every one in rural areas feed their large dogs healthy meat scraps when available. JMO

 

[Lady Bug]

And lots of people do. I wouldn't expect her to give her dog mushrooms or the pastry outer layer. But many people give their large dogs beef or chicken scraps with the dogs meal for the protein.

I know not everyone does, but she lives in a rural area. Most every one in rural areas feed their large dogs healthy meat scraps when available. JMO

She could have trimmed the beef and given scraps to the dog before other ingredients were added.