Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #6 *Arrest*

[TootsieFootsie]

Thanks @SouthAussie

 

[SouthAussie]

The Australian put out another article a couple of days ago, about a brand new mushroom farm in my state that is now in Administration (the first step to bankruptcy, I think). Although they are going to try to put together a repayment plan that will enable them to keep going. They owe close to $5M.

It has had a couple of financial problems. The first being that the financial backer has had personal issues which has made them unable to meet the debts from the company start-up.
The second being that the mushroom poisoning in Victoria (EP's case) has impacted the demand for the group's oyster, shiitake, enoki, king oyster and lion’s mane mushrooms.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/agribusiness/epicurean-food-groups-sales-arm-in-administration-in-wake-of-death-cap-mushroom-incident/news-story/b557f6679edfdfb8c2e41ea02d947e9e?amp

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Yes I think I saw the headlne for that story, maybe on another news outlet.
It said a newish company that sells exotic mushrooms

 

[Kemug]

Yes Ellery, a mental health defence down the track seems a possibility. After all, she does seem a little "different" from most people, IMO. Not that I know anything about it.

 

[Ellery84]

The Australian put out another article a couple of days ago, about a brand new mushroom farm in my state that is now in Administration (the first step to bankruptcy, I think). Although they are going to try to put together a repayment plan that will enable them to keep going. They owe close to $5M.

It has had a couple of financial problems. The first being that the financial backer has had personal issues which has made them unable to meet the debts from the company start-up.
The second being that the mushroom poisoning in Victoria (EP's case) has impacted the demand for the group's oyster, shiitake, enoki, king oyster and lion’s mane mushrooms.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/agribusiness/epicurean-food-groups-sales-arm-in-administration-in-wake-of-death-cap-mushroom-incident/news-story/b557f6679edfdfb8c2e41ea02d947e9e?amp

I suppose there’s not “mushroom” for a large profit margin for exotic versions of the fungi that have been getting so much negative press in the last few months.

IMO

 

[jjleroche]

The jurisdiction where she had her recent mention would not have been able to grant bail, and she (her legal team) did not apply at that time.

If she wanted to apply for bail, that would need to be done through the Supreme Court.

So: Maybe she’s not applied to the Supreme Court for bail?

IMO
INAL

Yes, I think that could be the case Ellery84. If she were to be released on bail, IMO her life woud not be improved significantly from her current situation. It may be that she has anticipated that there could be some restrictions to spending time with her children. Prior to her remand her children were removed from her care, IIRC until such time as the investigation into the "mushroom" deaths was finalised with a satisfactory outcome in relation to Erin.
She has no other family living locally. Her only blood relative (from what I can gather - ICBW) is her sister who resides in Melbourne. There has really been no information regarding her closeness (or otherwise) to her sister.
IMO, given the above, her only source of comfort and solace may be her lovely black labrador.
She may gain solace from her religious beliefs, but I imagine that any such solace would be the same whether she is on remand, or released on bail. JMO

 

[Ellery84]

Yes, I think that could be the case Ellery84. If she were to be released on bail, IMO her life woud not be improved

I think it would be. The food might be better and she might have internet and some more books to read.

significantly from her current situation. It may be that she has anticipated that there could be some restrictions to spending time with her children. Prior to her remand her children were removed from her care, IIRC until such time as the investigation into the "mushroom" deaths was finalised with a satisfactory outcome in relation to Erin.

Yes, well there is that. Good point.

She has no other family living locally. Her only blood relative (from what I can gather - ICBW) is her sister who resides in Melbourne. There has really been no information regarding her closeness (or otherwise) to her sister.

She sounds like she was a lonely person, imo.

IMO, given the above, her only source of comfort and solace may be her lovely black labrador.

Oh that beautiful ABL, adorable black lab. Hope he/she is ok.

She may gain solace from her religious beliefs, but I imagine that any such solace would be the same whether she is on remand, or released on bail. JMO

I am not sure, isn’t she an atheist? I’ve read so many articles about her, it’s starting to get a little blurry on the religious side of things for me.

All jmo

I think the media would have heard about it if Erin applied for bail, and I haven’t read anything about that. Maybe the surety would be very costly and she doesn’t have that amount of liquid cash/assets to post bail? So maybe it’s a financial decision?

Who knows….

IMO

Edit/

I’ve had a bit of a squiz at bail in Victoria. Here’s what I found:

It’s worth noting that in Victoria, there is a presumption in favour of bail. This means that a person is entitled to be granted bail unless there is a compelling reason to refuse it. However, in some cases, such as for serious offences like murder or terrorism, bail may be refused altogether.



How much does bail cost in Victoria Australia?

The cost of bail in Victoria, Australia can vary depending on a variety of factors. The amount of bail required will depend on the nature and severity of the charges, the defendant’s criminal history, and the likelihood that they will fail to appear in court or pose a risk to the community if released.



The Bail Act 1977 in Victoria specifies that the court should consider the defendant’s financial circumstances when setting bail, to ensure that the amount of bail does not place an unreasonable financial burden on them.

The court uses penalty units to calculate the cost of bail in Victoria. One penalty unit is currently $184.92, from 1 July 2022 to 30 June 2023.



Ultimate Guide For Bail In Victoria (2023)

BBM

 

[Ellery84]

Yes Ellery, a mental health defence down the track seems a possibility. After all, she does seem a little "different" from most people, IMO. Not that I know anything about it.

Different?

 

[Lady Bug]

"she is an atheist as far as I knew"

How Erin Patterson's life of wealth fell apart before mushroom lunch

Wealthy mother-of-two Erin Patterson is in custody after her privileged life unravelled when her marriage collapsed and she allegedly served a fatal mushroom lunch.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Although this appeared in the Daily Mail, it is not where it originated. It came from an anonymous post in a forum following EP's case.

It was stated by a person who anonymously declared themself as an "ex" friend of EP's. Ex because they had a falling out. As a member of the true crime groups of which EP and the anonymous person were members I'm familiar with them both in that context.

In the EP forum the anonymous person stated they had not met EP in person. In other words they knew EP on-line, not in real life. As we all know people can present themselves on-line in the way they wish to be perceived.

It is my opinion therefore - the anonymous on-line ex friend would not know if EP was an atheist or not.

In the linked article (subscriber only) a Korumburra local is quoted as saying when EP was editor of the Burra Flyer she pushed a religious agenda. This contradicts what has been stated by the anonymous on-line ex friend.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/subscr...onymous&mode=premium&v21=HIGH-Segment-1-SCORE

All said in my own opinion.

 

[Kemug]

Different?

Antisocial?

 

[Lady Bug]

On the question of a bail application, if successful EP would be expected to post bail? If it's expected to be a significant sum, that could explain the reason for the Mt Waverly property being liquidated quite quickly. Perhaps once the sale is settled and proceeds are released to EP there could be an application made for bail?

 

[SouthAussie]

On the question of a bail application, if successful EP would be expected to post bail? If it's expected to be a significant sum, that could explain the reason for the Mt Waverly property being liquidated quite quickly. Perhaps once the sale is settled and proceeds are released to EP there could be an application made for bail?

She can apply for bail in the Supreme Court, but I think that she is unlikely to be granted bail if she does.

IIRC Borce Ristevski didn't apply for bail in the Vic Supreme Court, he just waited his time out until trial (and then pleaded guilty to manslaughter instead of murder). And Borce murdered one person, not (allegedly) three people and attempted to murder a fourth (and fifth) person.

Borce Ristevski reportedly bashed on first day in jail​

This Herald Sun article about EP says accused people are unlikely to get bail via the Supreme Court due to the seriousness of murder charges.
(IMO) if EP spends money trying to get bail, she will have less money for a private lawyer for her trial and any potential appeal. Any potential sentence she is given will have time deducted for this pre-trial stint in prison.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/truecrimeaustralia/police-courts-victoria/what-will-happen-next-for-mushroom-cook-erin-patterson/news-story/071d0226f6ce726cc5137cd3a4b5cdfb

 

[Lady Bug]

She can apply for bail in the Supreme Court, but I think that she is unlikely to be granted bail if she does.

IIRC Borce Ristevski didn't apply for bail in the Vic Supreme Court, he just waited his time out until trial (and then pleaded guilty to manslaughter instead of murder). And Borce murdered one person, not (allegedly) three people and attempting to murder a fourth (and fifth) person.

Borce Ristevski reportedly bashed on first day in jail​

This Herald Sun article about EP says accused people are unlikely to get bail via the Supreme Court due to the seriousness of murder charges.
(IMO) if EP spends money trying to get bail, she will have less money for a private lawyer for her trial and any potential appeal. Any potential sentence she is given will have time deducted for this pre-trial stint in prison.

https://www.heraldsun.com.au/truecrimeaustralia/police-courts-victoria/what-will-happen-next-for-mushroom-cook-erin-patterson/news-story/071d0226f6ce726cc5137cd3a4b5cdfb

Thank you, yes unlikely to be granted.
What I was meaning to address was why we haven't seen an application to the supreme court for bail as yet and suggesting a possibility could be the legal team are waiting on EP having the ability to post bail.

 

[Ellery84]

Thank you, yes unlikely to be granted.
What I was meaning to address was why we haven't seen an application to the supreme court for bail as yet and suggesting a possibility could be the legal team are waiting on EP having the ability to post bail.

Yes, I believe that is correct.

IMO

 

[Ellery84]

On the question of a bail application, if successful EP would be expected to post bail? If it's expected to be a significant sum, that could explain the reason for the Mt Waverly property being liquidated quite quickly. Perhaps once the sale is settled and proceeds are released to EP there could be an application made for bail?

I’m guessing that the property sale proceeds will go towards a retainer for Erin’s legal team and to pay legal fees already incurred.

IMO

 

[DeDee]

Indocyanine

May 16, 2023
Scientists have developed a new antidote now approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration called indocyanine green that reduces the toxicity of α-amanitin, a toxin produced by the world’s most poisonous mushroom: the death cap.
Scientists have engineered a new antidote for death cap poisoning

https://www.science.org/content/art...e-found-antidote-death-cap-mushroom-poisoning

Did any of the victims have a dose of this drug administered while in the hospital to counteract the poison?

 

[iamshadow21]

Indocyanine

May 16, 2023
Scientists have developed a new antidote now approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration called indocyanine green that reduces the toxicity of α-amanitin, a toxin produced by the world’s most poisonous mushroom: the death cap.
Scientists have engineered a new antidote for death cap poisoning

https://www.science.org/content/art...e-found-antidote-death-cap-mushroom-poisoning

Did any of the victims have a dose of this drug administered while in the hospital to counteract the poison?

No idea, but I think the problem is that with death caps, by the time people work out there's a problem, the damage has been done and they die of organ failure. There's a very small window for treatment, and even then, a lot of people still die.

MOO

 

[arrogantcat]

That’s really interesting!!

“to be found guilty of murder, the prosecution has to show that Erin had specific knowledge of the mushroom's adverse effects.”

So, presumably that would be in connection with the alleged beef Wellington lunch incident. Jmo

But what about the previous times that the Crown alleges that Erin attempted to murder her husband (or ex husband) Simon Patterson?

Thinking about those historical charges of attempted murder of Simon Patterson: What was the alleged mechanism of those attempted murders? (And Erin is entitled to the presumption of innocence, as she hasn’t been convicted of any of these charges.)

Has the Crown alleged that Simon was poisoned? Or was he allegedly harmed in another way that would lead them to bring a brief together with charges of attempted murder?

If he was allegedly poisoned, then what does the Crown alledge he was poisoned with? Nightshade? Arsenic? Mushrooms?

So I would suggest that there might be more to it than just establishing the accused’s potential knowledge of the mushroom’s adverse effects.

IMO

I would suggest that, in a general sense, the fact that it is called a Death Cap Mushroom might inform the chef (or in this case an alleged murderer) that it might be deadly and therefore not suitable for consumption.

I like to think about this in simple terms, and bear with me: For example, it might be like me preparing a Death Banana. It’s called a Death Banana. I’m hardly going to chop it up and put it on my cornflakes in the morning. Let alone serve it to anyone else…. I’m going to leave it on it’s tree and never touch it.

So if Ms. Patterson’s hearing goes ahead in May 2024, let’s say the defence in the Erin Patterson case rises in the court and says, “well my client didn’t know that Death Cap Mushrooms were sufficiently poisonous that they would cause death,” the Prosecutor might say “well, they are called Death Cap mushrooms” and that might be a really strong argument as to what might happen if one ingested them. Jmo

For what it’s worth, I think there may be some discussion about “quantity” of mushrooms, if and when the case goes to trial in May.

All imo

IBM
BBM

I think the implication is that the defence may argue that is was misidentification. In fairness, even experienced foragers can make mistakes. In France all pharmacists are trained to ID mushrooms for customers because it can be so risky. Even on mushroom ID forums populated with experts you’ll sometimes get disagreement and no consensus without biological testing of a species.

It’s a bit like if somebody mixed every brand of potato crisps together in a bowl and asked you to find the Walkers ones on sight. Possible, once you know what you’re looking for, but easy to make mistakes too.

 

[katydid23]

I think the implication is that the defence may argue that is was misidentification. In fairness, even experienced foragers can make mistakes. In France all pharmacists are trained to ID mushrooms for customers because it can be so risky. Even on mushroom ID forums populated with experts you’ll sometimes get disagreement and no consensus without biological testing of a species.

It’s a bit like if somebody mixed every brand of potato crisps together in a bowl and asked you to find the Walkers ones on sight. Possible, once you know what you’re looking for, but easy to make mistakes too.

However, even if they try to go that route---misidentification by the suspect---there are many problems with that defence strategy.

First, she lied and covered it up for all this time. If it was a simple mistake, why not be honest?

And there is no indication that she ever told the luncheon guests that they were eating foraged mushrooms that day. Wouldn't that be a topic of conversation if she thought everything was OK?

And of course, the HUGE problem for her still exists---8 beings could have been poisoned that day, but only her guests died or severely injured. Neither she, her children or her Labrador suffered any consequences. VERY suspicious in itself.

If it was a mistaken identification, why did only those 4 suffer?

 

[Charlot123]

However, even if they try to go that route---misidentification by the suspect---there are many problems with that defence strategy.

First, she lied and covered it up for all this time. If it was a simple mistake, why not be honest?

And there is no indication that she ever told the luncheon guests that they were eating foraged mushrooms that day. Wouldn't that be a topic of conversation if she thought everything was OK?

And of course, the HUGE problem for her still exists---8 beings could have been poisoned that day, but only her guests died or severely injured. Neither she, her children or her Labrador suffered any consequences. VERY suspicious in itself.

If it was a mistaken identification, why did only those 4 suffer?

And, if it was a mistake, how do we explain the dehydrator? If anything, a mistaken person wants to get to the bottom of the situation herself, including what type of a mushroom it was, she'd never throw out any evidence.