Australia - 3 dead after eating wild mushrooms, Leongatha, Victoria, Aug 2023 #9 *Arrest*

[Bats]

MAYBE, instead of the Naturalist showing photos pinpointing exactly where Dearth Caps are growing---maybe people who see death caps should be destroying them?

OR are they important for the eo-system? Do they support Oak Trees in some way? I know mushrooms in general are important to trees.

But just in terms of the Death Caps specifically, would it be better to destroy them upon identifying them rather than posting pictures of their location?

Or is it a warning that there are possibly others in that area?

They form a symbiotic relationship with the tree.

The death cap mushroom, Amanita phalloides, forms a symbiotic relationship with certain trees, specifically broad-leaved trees like oaks, birches, and elms. This relationship, known as ectomycorrhizal, is mutually beneficial: the fungus helps the tree absorb water and nutrients from the soil, while the tree provides the fungus with carbohydrates.

Here's a more detailed explanation:

• Mycorrhizal Relationship:
  Death cap mushrooms are mycorrhizal fungi, meaning they form a symbiotic association with plant roots.
  
  
• Benefits to the Tree:
  The fungal network (mycelium) extends beyond the tree's root system, increasing its ability to absorb water and nutrients, particularly phosphorus, from the soil.
  
  
• Benefits to the Fungus:
  The tree provides the fungus with sugars (carbohydrates) produced through photosynthesis, which the fungus uses for energy and growth.

 

[katydid23]

Do you have a reference were it states she actually foraged for death caps?

That is a cornerstone of her defense >>>>---'she foraged for the mushrooms she served but panicked when her guests got sick so she tipped her dehydrator and made up the Asian market story. '

I would never eat mushrooms that have been foraged, even if the people say that they'e experts.

I did eat them once, simmered in fresh garlic---but that was ONLY after my Uncle and Aunt ate them the previous day, with no bad side effects. They foraged often and I did trust them but still waited 36 hours to be certain. lol

 

[Porky1]

I suspect the toxin was delivered via the store bought gravy.

As such, the children got NO mushrooms and NO GRAVY. And one BW, made unnoticably without gravy.

Where was THAT wrapper? Was it recovered? Indeed it feels like an odd ingredient, given the elaborate recipe.

JMO

Megnut, that’s a plausible theory imho.

It seemed odd using a pre made gravy but maybe her guests liked gravy. Maybe she isn’t a fan and had a dribble, only. Great excuse too. The gravy wouldn’t draw attention if it was prepackaged. Single satchet thrown out and none for the kids the following evening. She could have had the dried powdered DCs in the gravy boat and waiting to be poured in following 60 seconds in the microwave, all visible to guests.

All the discussion around individual BW and the plate, yes, the orange one, may have absolutely nothing to do with the fatal meal.

 

[katydid23]

"A close friend of the Patterson family told Daily Mail Australia she was known for going wild mushroom foraging around Victoria’s Gippsland region along with her ex-partner Simon and other relatives and was “very good” at it.

“The Patterson family would pick mushrooms each year when they were in season,” the source said.

'Knew what to pick': Source's bombshell claim about mushroom cook

A new development in the case of the deadly mushroom poisoning that claimed three lives in Victoria has exposed the woman who cooked the lunch as an experience forager.

www.skynews.com.au

Thousands of Homeowners Are Applying For New Government Funding to Install Solar

I think that^^^^ information----that the Patterson family were avid mushroom foragers----is very incriminating.

Reason being, IF Erin had foraged for fresh mushrooms, like she and Simon and other relatives were known to do over the years, why did she keep it a secret from her lunch guests that she was serving foraged mushrooms?

I'd think she would happily share that news since it was a family hobby they all enjoyed.

 

[katydid23]

Did Ian ever mention any mushroom gravy? I don't remember him doing so, but maybe he was just never asked? Or he didn't remember?

 

[Jess D]

MAYBE, instead of the Naturalist showing photos pinpointing exactly where Dearth Caps are growing---maybe people who see death caps should be destroying them?

OR are they important for the eo-system? Do they support Oak Trees in some way? I know mushrooms in general are important to trees.

But just in terms of the Death Caps specifically, would it be better to destroy them upon identifying them rather than posting pictures of their location?

Or is it a warning that there are possibly others in that area?

They aren't native to Australia, so I can't see that they would be important to the eco system.

 

[katydid23]

They form a symbiotic relationship with the tree.

The death cap mushroom, Amanita phalloides, forms a symbiotic relationship with certain trees, specifically broad-leaved trees like oaks, birches, and elms. This relationship, known as ectomycorrhizal, is mutually beneficial: the fungus helps the tree absorb water and nutrients from the soil, while the tree provides the fungus with carbohydrates.

Here's a more detailed explanation:

• Mycorrhizal Relationship:
  Death cap mushrooms are mycorrhizal fungi, meaning they form a symbiotic association with plant roots.
  
  
• Benefits to the Tree:
  The fungal network (mycelium) extends beyond the tree's root system, increasing its ability to absorb water and nutrients, particularly phosphorus, from the soil.
  
  
• Benefits to the Fungus:
  The tree provides the fungus with sugars (carbohydrates) produced through photosynthesis, which the fungus uses for energy and growth.

Yes, that makes sense. I remember reading about that. So my idea was not a good one. lol

 

[Porky1]

Another aspect of this is that the inference is -- or could be taken to be -- that Asian stores could be selling poisonous food.

Iam almost certain that there have been some cases where questionable mushrooms have been sold at ‘Asian’ shops. The only case I recall of verified DC poisoning resulting in death was in Canberra but there have been more. I was sure this case sighted an ‘Asian’ shop at the time. It was NYE, Canberra is very hot in summer, they weren’t accidentally picked and cooked at that time.

Two die after eating death cap mushrooms

Deadly deathcap mushrooms - warning not to pick or eat wild mushrooms

With the growing popularity of foraging for wild food, the Food Safety Information Council is warning people not to pick or eat wild mushrooms as deadly deathcap mushrooms start to appear in southern and western Australia. Foraging for wild food is becoming a popular activity but gathering wild...

www.foodsafety.asn.au

 

[katydid23]

Patterson's Defence are definitely going to push that she accidentally picked poisonous mushrooms...

Yep, been that way from the start. With her admitting she did forage them, the only possible option is that it was accidental. Which is why her not being poisoned (and probably also the feeding it to the kids, seemingly confident they'd be ok) is the main thing in the prosecution's favour, I think. Not sure if any other aspect is more important, other than some kind of evidence that hasn't been shown yet?

There are several problems for EP with that defense:

As mentioned above, if truly accidental, why did ONLY her 4 guests suffer from poisoning. Not her, or her kids or her Labrador?

Perhaps the biggest problem >>>---when her 4 guests were in the hospital, in critical condition, and doctors were asking her about the mushrooms SHE CONTINUED TO LIE.

She COULD HAVE SAVED THEM. But she chose not to. So at that point it was not accidental. They needed to know what kind of antidote was needed and she continued to stall and mislead them and her guests died.

So even if she could convince the jury that she accidentally served Death Caps [which she can't]---she still would fall short because she continued to lie which killed them needlessly.

However, there seems to be some incriminating evidence that she may have intentionally sought out Death Caps and bought the dehydrator the day she found them. And then began practicing with using powdered mushrooms secretly in various recipes. So this will work against the accidental narrative, imo.

 

[Megnut]

Part of her panic was to pre-fab symptoms?

Before anyone else knew there was a problem?

Clairvoyant.

JMO

 

[SouthAussie]

Iam almost certain that there have been some cases where questionable mushrooms have been sold at ‘Asian’ shops. The only case I recall of verified DC poisoning resulting in death was in Canberra but there have been more. I was sure this case sighted an ‘Asian’ shop at the time. It was NYE, Canberra is very hot in summer, they weren’t accidentally picked and cooked at that time.

Two die after eating death cap mushrooms

Deadly deathcap mushrooms - warning not to pick or eat wild mushrooms

With the growing popularity of foraging for wild food, the Food Safety Information Council is warning people not to pick or eat wild mushrooms as deadly deathcap mushrooms start to appear in southern and western Australia. Foraging for wild food is becoming a popular activity but gathering wild...

www.foodsafety.asn.au

I think the Canberra case you may be referring to was due to foraged mushrooms.
We looked at previous Aussie poisonings by Death Caps further back in the threads.

The correlation is that Death Caps look very similar to a mushroom that is used in Chinese cooking. But Death Caps do not grow in China.


ACT Health urged people not to pick and eat wild mushrooms.
It resembles a common edible variety used in Chinese cooking.

Death cap mushroom poisoning: fourth Canberra resident falls ill

ACT Health confirms latest case, unrelated to three reported last week, and urges people not to pick and eat wild fungi

www.theguardian.com

 

[Old Soul]

Iam almost certain that there have been some cases where questionable mushrooms have been sold at ‘Asian’ shops. The only case I recall of verified DC poisoning resulting in death was in Canberra but there have been more. I was sure this case sighted an ‘Asian’ shop at the time. It was NYE, Canberra is very hot in summer, they weren’t accidentally picked and cooked at that time.

Two die after eating death cap mushrooms

Deadly deathcap mushrooms - warning not to pick or eat wild mushrooms

With the growing popularity of foraging for wild food, the Food Safety Information Council is warning people not to pick or eat wild mushrooms as deadly deathcap mushrooms start to appear in southern and western Australia. Foraging for wild food is becoming a popular activity but gathering wild...

www.foodsafety.asn.au

I believe the NYE poisoning case you are thinking of is an after hours dinner that was prepared in a restaurant kitchen for staff. Unfortunately the chef mistook death caps for another variety of mushroom considered a Chinese delicacy.
“Mr Liu is believed to have picked the poisonous mushrooms in Braddon on his way home from work after mistaking them for edible mushrooms used in Asian cooking.”
Mushrooms can grow in warmer months if there has been wet weather.

Deadly meal cooked in Canberra restaurant - 9News

The deadly meal of mushrooms that killed two people was prepared in commercial premises in Canberra.

www.9news.com.au

 

[Spectrix]

MAYBE, instead of the Naturalist showing photos pinpointing exactly where Dearth Caps are growing---maybe people who see death caps should be destroying them?

I seem to recall that Dr May said he had destroyed the ones he'd photographed for that reason, and posted the location as a warning to others in the area to look out. This was reported prior to his testimony today.
Mushrooms pop up overnight and it's possible that Erin searched the area thoroughly and found many more.

 

[iamshadow21]

They form a symbiotic relationship with the tree.

The death cap mushroom, Amanita phalloides, forms a symbiotic relationship with certain trees, specifically broad-leaved trees like oaks, birches, and elms. This relationship, known as ectomycorrhizal, is mutually beneficial: the fungus helps the tree absorb water and nutrients from the soil, while the tree provides the fungus with carbohydrates.

Here's a more detailed explanation:

• Mycorrhizal Relationship:
  Death cap mushrooms are mycorrhizal fungi, meaning they form a symbiotic association with plant roots.
  
  
• Benefits to the Tree:
  The fungal network (mycelium) extends beyond the tree's root system, increasing its ability to absorb water and nutrients, particularly phosphorus, from the soil.
  
  
• Benefits to the Fungus:
  The tree provides the fungus with sugars (carbohydrates) produced through photosynthesis, which the fungus uses for energy and growth.

Truffles do the same thing, I think this kind of symbiotic relationship is common with fungi. For example, lichens are symbiotic colonies of fungi and algae or bacteria.

MOO

 

[Porky1]

I believe the NYE poisoning case you are thinking of is an after hours dinner that was prepared in a restaurant kitchen for staff. Unfortunately the chef mistook death caps for another variety of mushroom considered a Chinese delicacy.
“Mr Liu is believed to have picked the poisonous mushrooms in Braddon on his way home from work after mistaking them for edible mushrooms used in Asian cooking.”
Mushrooms can grow in warmer months if there has been wet weather.

Deadly meal cooked in Canberra restaurant - 9News

The deadly meal of mushrooms that killed two people was prepared in commercial premises in Canberra.

www.9news.com.au

That’s the case. Thank you

 

[Detechtive]

Megnut, that’s a plausible theory imho.

It seemed odd using a pre made gravy but maybe her guests liked gravy. Maybe she isn’t a fan and had a dribble, only. Great excuse too. The gravy wouldn’t draw attention if it was prepackaged. Single satchet thrown out and none for the kids the following evening. She could have had the dried powdered DCs in the gravy boat and waiting to be poured in following 60 seconds in the microwave, all visible to guests.

All the discussion around individual BW and the plate, yes, the orange one, may have absolutely nothing to do with the fatal meal.

I agree. I had ruled it out previously because she went to the inexplicable effort to make individual Beef Wellingtons, but it really could have been in the satchel of gravy. Mixed in, heated, poured. Pretty simple. Especially after reading Erin's comment to her group that the volume of the mushroom is 90% less when dried (if that is true). It would make it much much easier to get the 20gms (ish) of mushroom in per guest.

Also very easy to rinse down the sink, or flush down the toilet, and even burn the packet and then you don't have any poisoned leftovers anywhere.

However I doubt she would have risked doing it in front of the guests, in case a guest said "no gravy thank you". I think she may have had it already on or IN each "pie" to ensure it got to its intended target

That or, she only poisoned half of the gravy, or she had two satchels of it.

The thing is, she apparently seemed odd about people going into her butlers pantry. Did she have the oven in there? A microwave? A dishwasher? I wish we had more detail on what was in the kitchen and what was in the butlers pantry. Also, they nearly always have sinks in them - maybe that's where she prepared it all and that's why the kids never saw other plates.

I still think that the death caps were strategically placed inside each individual Beef Wellington, but agree that it's possible it was actually in the gravy.

 

[TootsieFootsie]

Erin Patterson murder trial hears death cap mushrooms are 'challenging' to identify​

Apps had 'poor' accuracy for picking poisonous mushrooms, trial hears

An internationally recognised fungi expert has told Ms Patterson's murder trial the accurate identification of death cap mushrooms is "challenging", resulting in people accidentally poisoning themselves.

www.abc.net.au

 

[SouthAussie]

Yep, been that way from the start. With her admitting she did forage them, the only possible option is that it was accidental. Which is why her not being poisoned (and probably also the feeding it to the kids, seemingly confident they'd be ok) is the main thing in the prosecution's favour, I think. Not sure if any other aspect is more important, other than some kind of evidence that hasn't been shown yet?

Consciousness of Guilt?

What are Lies as Consciousness of Guilt? | FEDOROV

When it comes to criminal law in Australia, the concept of "consciousness of guilt" is one that can have profound implications

www.fedorovfamilylawyers.com.au

 

[TootsieFootsie]

The Chinese people who ate those mushrooms in 2012 did pick the mushrooms.
I remember at the time they said the mushrooms looked just like ones they'd picked at home in China.

 

[Eloise]

Consciousness of Guilt?

What are Lies as Consciousness of Guilt? | FEDOROV

When it comes to criminal law in Australia, the concept of "consciousness of guilt" is one that can have profound implications

www.fedorovfamilylawyers.com.au

Very interesting and informative, thanks for the link @SouthAussie
I bet her barristers would say she lied because of 'confusion and panic'... guess based on this concept, it would be up to the jury to decide whether that was the case or not