GUILTY Australia - Terence Darrell Kelly, charged w/ abduction of 4 y.o., WA, 16 Oct 2021 #2

[5W's]

The Australian judiciary is well known for its lack of diversity. Because of this, is there a potential for judge-only trials to lead to biased decisions against certain minorities? In cases involving Indigenous people in Australia, it would be worth considering having Indigenous lay assessors similarly accompany judges who sit alone on trials.

Anything for a fair trial for this man. There's so much publicity already. I mean he's known worldwide even if he escaped prison and somehow went to another country he would be recognized immediately. So this is concerning because a lawyer can argue he's not being fairly treated and then What? I hope for CS's sake that the courts cover all those angles otherwise who knows.

 

[everybodhi]

Yeah, the thing about the hair which the hair colourist explained (i have no idea how this stuff works!). She said that yellow blonde (which CS looks to have) is a blue based colour, and it has no red in it. When it darkens, or in different light, it will look an ashy colour, like mousy brown, but it will never get warm tones. In order for it to go a warm colour like it is in the hospital and press photos of her (with the pink balloon), where it has warm red hues, it has a red base. She explained that you can't get that warm colour in someone with a blue base unless you add red pigment. So going by that, it looks to have been dyed.

But who knows, it could just be different colour profiles on phones or cameras making it look different.

Hard water contains dissolved minerals that can deposit red/orange tones on both natural and dyed blonde hair, iron in the water is notorious for this.
A clarifying or chelating shampoo used periodically will help dissolve those red tones, you can't really use it every shampoo because it strips the hair and is very drying.
But after using, blondes often see a noticeable difference.
Blonde hair color can change a lot due the products used and water hardness.

 

[OwlHeart]

I think it will have a very long-term effect on Jake and Ellie. Of course we don't know, and hopefully never will, find out what happened to CS, but children are resilient. IF he didn't mistreat her physically, hopefully she'll bounce back to her normal self sooner (whatever that means) rather than later, but I live in hope. I'm a glass half full sort of gal. I personally have no memories going back to that age and only have a few from when I was 6. I've asked some of my friends what age their earliest childhood memories are and they were nearly all the same as me. Having said that, we know that several of our members here have been through shocking ordeals, but I don't get the impression that anything gross happened to this dear little girl.

Yes. The degree of trauma that CS experienced will obviously impact her memory of the event later in life and her integration/healing of it.

I remember few things from early childhood (0-5) that aren't traumatic experiences on some level.

My very first memory is when I was about 18 months old and my Mum took me to get one of my first vaccinations.

The local Town Hall had been set up with a patient bed/folding table that you'd see in your GP's room.

I recall it was very empty except for that one table and two nurses stood by it. I remember my mother handing me to one of the nurses and then I was handed back after getting my shot.

WOW.

I felt like I'd just been betrayed by my Mum, like she'd given me to the strange nurses to be made to feel sick, made to feel horrible, like nothing I'd ever known in my little life up until that point.

Clearly, I'd had a rare reaction to the vaccine, one that was never looked into or followed up. (I've since suffered adverse reactions to two other vaccines - I am NOT anti-vax though)

Funnily enough, I didn't speak of that very early memory until I was about 30.

When I eventually mentioned it to my Mum (a few years ago) she was astonished, as not only had she never realised how I'd been affected that day way back in 1984-85, but she herself had a similar first memory!

So yes, if CS at some point felt like something very wrong had happened she may carry great trauma but if it wasn't actually too rough transitioning to being in TKs care, perhaps she will be relatively unscathed, maybe forgetting some, most or all of her experience - although the body would store at least some degree of trauma simply as a result of the seperation from her parents scent etc

 

[Officer Dibble]

IIRC this neighbour spoke well about TK - about his being a good neighbour, seeing him in the backyard at night, TK looks after his place when he is away, he hadn't heard anything from TK's place since the abduction, he was away the week before TK's arrest and had other people staying there then. All in all a positive report. Is this guy married?

SBM BBM Are you wondering if this man had a wife if she was the hair brusher? JMO MOO

 

[centred]

Have I got this right? The duplex neighbour owns a silver Commodore. This car may or may not have been involved on the night of the abduction as well as the night of the arrest.

IIRC this neighbour spoke well about TK - about his being a good neighbour, seeing him in the backyard at night, TK looks after his place when he is away, he hadn't heard anything from TK's place since the abduction, he was away the week before TK's arrest and had other people staying there then. All in all a positive report. Is this guy married?

 

[centred]

Yes It seems it is common for the sharing of houses ( not really surprizing re workers demographic
and transient life and covid. ) So its possible one of the friends may have been a woman . Not necessarily has to be married

 

[drsleuth]

The objection to routine shackling is fair enough but I'd be surprised if the publicity is sufficiently prejudicial to make him untriable by jury. The case is high profile because of the nature of what's happened. Is the court to concede that any crime bad enough to generate hatred and enmity can only be tried by judge alone?

Judge alone trials in NSW Peter Krisenthal (criminalcpd.net.au)

It mentions WA ........

The West Australian Criminal Procedure Act 2004 allows either an accused or a prosecutor to apply for a Judge alone trial, however a court can only grant such an application with the consent of the accused. The application must be made prior to the identity of the Judge being known and will be granted if it is “in the interests of justice”7 . “Interest of justice” is defined as including the trial length and complexity and whether it is likely that issues such as jury tampering will occur.8 The legislation provides that “the court may refuse to make the order if it considers the trial will involve a factual issue that requires the application of objective community standards such as an issue of reasonableness, negligence, indecency, obscenity or dangerousness”.9 Once an order is made for a Judge alone trial it is not able to be cancelled after the identity of the trial Judge is known.

Criminal Procedure Act 2004 - [03-h0-00].pdf (legislation.wa.gov.au) page 109 - 111

Hopefully he'll plead guilty........

 

[AC's Grandma]

Yes. The degree of trauma that CS experienced will obviously impact her memory of the event later in life and her integration/healing of it.

I remember few things from early childhood (0-5) that aren't traumatic experiences on some level.

My very first memory is when I was about 18 months old and my Mum took me to get one of my first vaccinations.

The local Town Hall had been set up with a patient bed/folding table that you'd see in your GP's room.

I recall it was very empty except for that one table and two nurses stood by it. I remember my mother handing me to one of the nurses and then I was handed back after getting my shot.

WOW.

I felt like I'd just been betrayed by my Mum, like she'd given me to the strange nurses to be made to feel sick, made to feel horrible, like nothing I'd ever known in my little life up until that point.

Clearly, I'd had a rare reaction to the vaccine, one that was never looked into or followed up. (I've since suffered adverse reactions to two other vaccines - I am NOT anti-vax though)

Funnily enough, I didn't speak of that very early memory until I was about 30.

When I eventually mentioned it to my Mum (a few years ago) she was astonished, as not only had she never realised how I'd been affected that day way back in 1984-85, but she herself had a similar first memory!

So yes, if CS at some point felt like something very wrong had happened she may carry great trauma but if it wasn't actually too rough transitioning to being in TKs care, perhaps she will be relatively unscathed, maybe forgetting some, most or all of her experience - although the body would store at least some degree of trauma simply as a result of the seperation from her parents scent etc

I'm sorry for what you went through, it's terrible to have an awful memory from very early childhood.
Sadly I think what'll impact CS's future is the fact that the entire story of her being abducted is all over the internet and it will not disappear so she'll be easily reminded of it. I really wish these type of news stories were required to be removed from the internet when there are young children involved.
IMO JMO

 

[JudgeJudi]

Judge alone trials in NSW Peter Krisenthal (criminalcpd.net.au)

It mentions WA ........

The West Australian Criminal Procedure Act 2004 allows either an accused or a prosecutor to apply for a Judge alone trial, however a court can only grant such an application with the consent of the accused. The application must be made prior to the identity of the Judge being known and will be granted if it is “in the interests of justice”7 . “Interest of justice” is defined as including the trial length and complexity and whether it is likely that issues such as jury tampering will occur.8 The legislation provides that “the court may refuse to make the order if it considers the trial will involve a factual issue that requires the application of objective community standards such as an issue of reasonableness, negligence, indecency, obscenity or dangerousness”.9 Once an order is made for a Judge alone trial it is not able to be cancelled after the identity of the trial Judge is known.

Criminal Procedure Act 2004 - [03-h0-00].pdf (legislation.wa.gov.au) page 109 - 111

Hopefully he'll plead guilty........

That was an interesting, albeit long, read. Bearing in mind the massive media coverage, I imagine his counsel will advise TK to ask for a bench trial.

This easy to read article addresses the following questions:

Criminal Trials Before A Judge Alone: Is It Possible?
Under What Circumstances Can You Have a Trial Before a Judge Alone?
What is the Best Option to Take?
Benefits of a judge-alone trial?
The benefits of a jury trial.
What type of trial would be best for me?

Criminal Trials Before A Judge Alone: Is It Possible? | Andrew Williams Criminal Lawyer

Once discovery takes place and his counsel is aware of the evidence against TK, he will advise what he believes is the best course to follow. Of course all cases are different and need to be treated individually.

 

[they'll get you]

2gb interview with Clinton Maynard - said they are NOT looking for clues now, the are looking for remains.

 

[PinkPower]

Have I got this right? The duplex neighbour owns a silver Commodore. This car may or may not have been involved on the night of the abduction as well as the night of the arrest.

IIRC this neighbour spoke well about TK - about his being a good neighbour, seeing him in the backyard at night, TK looks after his place when he is away, he hadn't heard anything from TK's place since the abduction, he was away the week before TK's arrest and had other people staying there then. All in all a positive report. Is this guy married?

I have searched for a link to the meia report but could not find it. Can anyone give me the link please?

IMO, it's unfair to search for info on parties not charged in this crime. They have a right to privacy.

 

[Estelle]

IMO, it's unfair to search for info on parties not charged in this crime. They have a right to privacy.

This information was given by the duplex neighbour in the printed media (not TV) freely saying he often used to see TK in his backyard at night and so on. Members here said a silver car was seen in his property. I am not searching for info on him. It was all in the media.

However, his name was not given so I wondered if anyone could find the link. It is difficult to search for that link now.

 

[Okapi]

The WT case is throwing a pall of sadness over today, and illustrates that CS’s case is truly an anomaly :-( Hence the gratitude for WA police.

Also just a btw, this article implies CS was a preschooler.

“Also proudly displayed is a craft mural decorated with colourful cut-outs of children’s hands. On each traced shape is a little note written by students from Carnarvon Christian School’s pre-primary class.”

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.perthnow.com.au/news/cs/cs-found-carnarvon-police-inundated-with-letters-flowers-food-and-gifts-of-thanks-c-4555563.amp

 

[OwlHeart]

I'm sorry for what you went through, it's terrible to have an awful memory from very early childhood.
Sadly I think what'll impact CS's future is the fact that the entire story of her being abducted is all over the internet and it will not disappear so she'll be easily reminded of it. I really wish these type of news stories were required to be removed from the internet when there are young children involved.
IMO JMO

You know I didn't stop to think about the internet exposure when I wrote my reply, I was highlighting the role perception has in how we react to drastic changes but I would assume CS will be protected in that arena quite well by her parents?

I absolutely agree that it's unjust to have so much attention on the child, her best interests aren't being considered are they?

I wonder what the parents are teaching CS about the media, whether they would present it as a novelty or a nuisance?

Granted I haven't been following the family all that much in MSM so I don't know how they're responding to being photographed etc

 

[OwlHeart]

That caretaker can’t get a break!
But yes, from what I’ve heard the focus of theft in an area like Blowholes is fishing gear & camping gear that people leave lying around their camp overnight. They steal it and can easily sell it off to a friend/dealer or even people travelling through, as Carnarvon is a main thoroughfare for people travelling up our coast.
As I’ve mentioned before, their new tent came with a built-in light. If this light, or any light was used when the parents went to bed, or even when CS woke for a drink then TK could have got a good idea on the sleeping arrangements. If you’ve never seen an internally lit tent it very much casts your silhouettes onto the tent walls.
So there are a few possibilities of how he knew where CS was sleeping but only he can explain what made him decide to go through with what he did.

This simple fact: tents have lights these days. It really shines a light (pun intended) on how TK knew where CS was. I was getting into night vision gear etc as a means of explanation haha.

I clearly haven't been camping for a long time, maybe because it's usually in-tents...

 

[OwlHeart]

Could it be he was trying to understand and process his own parental loss at age 2 when the 'grandmother' took him in, by watching it all unfold? JMO MOO

That's quite insightful.

I had a great Aunty who had what I now view as an obsession with porcelain dolls, making and displaying them in her home.

She was a classy lady, worked as a bank teller, married a white collar miner and had a lovely home.

She had been in an orphanage with her brother and sister until they ran away when she was about 5 or 6.

I never stopped to think about why she made those dolls - all remarkable to behold as she was exceptionally skilled at her craft. There were little train driver boys with overalls and glasses on, Victorian era dolls with exquisite dresses, cute toddler dolls with pigtails - honestly just about every type of little person you could think up, made into a masterpiece of a doll.

It is this case with TK and CS that has made me realise something.

My Aunt must of seen and experienced the most horrendous things at that orphanage.
So many neglected, abused, dirty, crying, poor little boys and girls that had been traumatising to witness and who knows what was done to her by the nuns.

My Aunt must have felt like she had to recreate the children she saw at the orphanage, make them pretty, perfect and surround herself with them so that every single day she could outweigh the dark memories with something nice.

 

[OwlHeart]

We will have to agree to disagree. I am well acquainted with four year olds in my everyday life, and there is a big difference between a two year old and an older toddler. This guy would not pass for a woman at the best of times, and CS was there long enough to observe that.

Makeup is a form of magic imo.

I'm neither here nor there with the idea of TK cross-dressing but I do know that drag, done right, is absolutely amazing in its transformative qualities.

I've known a brickie that was built like a bull, tanned with surfer-sunned blonde hair and if you looked very close at his fingernails, he could be seen to have traces of last night's nail polish beneath the dirt, dust and plaster he gathered during the day...

I was about 18 around the time this was happening and I had to have the hint dropped before I thought to Owl-Eye him.

I never would have thought...

 

[Deleted member 161976]

The WT case is throwing a pall of sadness over today, and illustrates that CS’s case is truly an anomaly :-( Hence the gratitude for WA police.

Also just a btw, this article implies CS was a preschooler.

“Also proudly displayed is a craft mural decorated with colourful cut-outs of children’s hands. On each traced shape is a little note written by students from Carnarvon Christian School’s pre-primary class.”

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/www.perthnow.com.au/news/cs/cs-found-carnarvon-police-inundated-with-letters-flowers-food-and-gifts-of-thanks-c-4555563.amp

CS wasn't a preschooler. That article just shows messages from a Christian pre school, doesn't mean she attended.
CS attends a Catholic primary school.
‘Pray for C’: School celebrates her safe return

 

[Sprockett7701]

CS wasn't a preschooler. That article just shows messages from a Christian pre school, doesn't mean she attended.
CS attends a Catholic primary school.
‘Pray for C: School celebrates her safe return

I believe she attended/s the local catholic primary kindergarten program.

 

[OwlHeart]

I find it unusual that he would be given a 2 bed property if he lived alone. To make best use of resources I would expect a 2 bed house to a household who needs the extra bedroom

It's not often a single person is allocated public housing with more than one bedroom but it happens more often than you'd think.

A person may have children they see once a fortnight or monthly or a teenager/young adult in the Army reserves that comes home once in a while.

Sometimes a tenant has disability needs (usually in the context of mental health) that require additional space/rooms - an example of this is someone with complex trauma who has night terrors about a violent assault that are remedied by entering a second bedroom and redoing the bedtime process, like a change of scenery that allows them to calm down etc

Additionally, in some areas there will be a surplus of houses on the books and few single room dwellings.

This is often the result of poor planning/project management but sometimes simply due to a curve ball in trends, regardless, it results in single tenants occupying homes intended for families, it's not unheard of for a single person to be given a 3 bedroom house. IMO

Incidentally, it may of course be unusual for TK to be housed in a two bedroom property, I just wanted to provide information some may find useful.

Source: I have previously worked with people with a history of substance abuse and clinical diagnosis of trauma that were public housing tenants.