Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sep 2014 - #71

[SLouTh]

The two cars story is just one of the things about the FM's account of that morning that doesn't sit well with me, and I guess with others.

However, to imagine that police invented the two cars sighting by her as part of some ploy beggars belief IMO.

Yes agree ....

I will admit, that until I re -read the passage in Jubelins book, I had thought that not a single other person had seen the cars, however his version disputes that fact..... maybe not on the same day???? But that the 2 cars may have existed .....????

 

[JLZ]

Yes agree ....

I will admit, that until I re -read the passage in Jubelins book, I had thought that not a single other person had seen the cars, however his version disputes that fact..... maybe not on the same day???? But that the 2 cars may have existed .....????

How could he be sure they were the same 2 cars?

 

[SouthAussie]

How could he be sure they were the same 2 cars?

IIRC they didn't even really fit the description.


ETA: Oh, maybe they kinda did. At the inquest he said the first car was a white one that looked like a Camry, fast back, hatch back...looked like a 1990s model.
The other car was a bluey grey common 4-door sedan.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/william-tyrrell-inquiry-neighbour-gives-muddled-evidence-on-unknown-cars/news-story/dd7bc86a5b97a1ab13768b700d3a0c23

 

[SLouTh]

How could he be sure they were the same 2 cars?

Yes good point ..... I was more thinking "at least someone saw something" but yes, we don't know they are the same cars ...

 

[SLouTh]

IIRC they didn't even really fit the description.

Can you remember who may have published that earlier report SA?? It would be helpful to read it again ..... I cant recall it being in a podcast .....I must have forgotten that part, as I was surprised when I noticed it in Jubes book.....

 

[SouthAussie]

Can you remember who may have published that earlier report SA?? It would be helpful to read it again ..... I cant recall it being in a podcast .....I must have forgotten that part, as I was surprised when I noticed it in Jubes book.....

I edited my above post ... it was in The Australlan. Inquest testimony, article dated 23/8/19.

The only other thing the article said about that was that he told HS about it - then he said maybe he told the police - because Craddock asked him why he didn't tell someone about the cars when he knew William had disappeared.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/william-tyrrell-inquiry-neighbour-gives-muddled-evidence-on-unknown-cars/news-story/dd7bc86a5b97a1ab13768b700d3a0c23

 

[JLZ]

I don't think we even knew PS was a POI until NSWPOL laid charges against Jubes, did we? And the recording fiasco became public knowledge.

At the inquest, Laura Beacroft said there had been nothing to clear him ... just that NSWPOL was not treating him as an active POI.

It's hard to remember. I don't think I realized PS was a suspect until I knew he was one of the few with a lawyer for the inquest. The publicity is only one factor in his mistreatment.

 

[SLouTh]

I edited my above post ... it was in The Australlan. Inquest testimony, article dated 23/8/19.

The only other thing the article said about that was that he told HS about it - then he said maybe he told the police - because Craddock asked him why he didn't tell someone about the cars when he knew William had disappeared.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/nation/william-tyrrell-inquiry-neighbour-gives-muddled-evidence-on-unknown-cars/news-story/dd7bc86a5b97a1ab13768b700d3a0c23

Thanks for that.... well it now seems that PS did tell the Police... (if Jubes' account of the incident is correct)

 

[SouthAussie]

It's hard to remember. I don't think I realized PS was a suspect until I knew he was one of the few with a lawyer for the inquest. The publicity is only one factor in his mistreatment.

I have never been a big believer in sitting down for a cup of tea and a piece of cake with a POI when you are trying to get some answers out of them. It's not like they are going to trip up or tell you anything in a pleasant chat in a police interview room.

These interviews are about going harder than just taking a statement.

As long as it was all recorded, as it seems to be.

 

[SouthAussie]

Thanks for that.... well it now seems that PS did tell the Police... (if Jubes' account of the incident is correct)

Yes, I was wondering at what point in time (in the case) that Jubes mentioned that in his book. Prior to the inquest?

I have Jubes book on Kindle. I will have to see if it offers me a search option within a book.

 

[SLouTh]

Yes, I was wondering at what point in time (in the case) that Jubes mentioned that in his book. Prior to the inquest?

I have Jubes book on Kindle. I will have to see if it offers me a search option within a book.

It was early in 2016 ... as per the book

From the Chapter "There's No Death That Is A Good Death" in I Catch Killers, by G Jubelin.

 

[SouthAussie]

It was early in 2016 ... as per the book

From the Chapter "There's No Death That Is A Good Death" in I Catch Killers, by G Jubelin.

Thanks. I worked out the search option and found it. PS told a junior officer named Greg, who was there to see where they would set up the covert cameras and PS came to talk to him.

 

[katydid23]

There is also nothing to stop people with ill intent calling in their own tips if they want to push a particular barrow.

I think it was Mr Craddock (at the inquest) who said something about false tips being called into Crime Stoppers that were time wasters.

I'll have to try to find the link for that later. (Because I am not positive it was Mr Craddock, it might have been Jubes who said that in a presser.)

Or maybe @drsleuth remembers.

I have heard a few investigators say that same thing---the tips can be helpful but they are also time wasters very often.

Angry ex wives call tips in out of anger, or nosy neighbours call in over nothing but desire to mess with someone, etc

 

[SLouTh]

Thanks. I worked out the search option and found it. PS told a junior officer named Greg, who was there to see where they would set up the covert cameras and PS came to talk to him.

Yes, so well before the inquest.... and some remarkable similarities with the possibly "observed cars".

However the memory of PS may have been altered by seeing the official images released in 2015??

Or PS may have seen those images and instantly remembered seeing them??? Or recognized them??

================================

Was it Parish that asked Abbot if it was RP's car as he thought the car looked familiar to the white one in the image??

================================

Somehow I don't think we will ever know.....

 

[JLZ]

I have never been a big believer in sitting down for a cup of tea and a piece of cake with a POI when you are trying to get some answers out of them. It's not like they are going to trip up or tell you anything in a pleasant chat in a police interview room.

These interviews are about going harder than just taking a statement.

As long as it was all recorded, as it seems to be.

If they're a suspect they have a right to silence. Police have no business using violence physical or psychological to get answers out of them. Breaking protocol is not even useful: police lost heir chance with Matthew Leveson's killer by not cautioning him as a suspect. Go hard enough that almost every crook will break, the innocent will have confessed as well.

 

[SouthAussie]

If they're a suspect they have a right to silence. Police have no business using violence physical or psychological to get answers out of them. Breaking protocol is not even useful: police lost heir chance with Matthew Leveson's killer by not cautioning him as a suspect. Go hard enough that almost every crook will break, the innocent will have confessed as well.

PS could have lawyered up any time he wanted to. Or invoked his right to silence by not speaking. Or got up and left. He wasn't under arrest. His rights were not infringed upon. Whether the police tactics are agreed with or not.

That is why the interviews are recorded.

Nothing unusual happened in PS' interview. He was asked if he was lying, and it was a tough interview. If he didn't like it, he should have got up and left.

imo

 

[JBowie]

PS could have lawyered up any time he wanted to. Or invoked his right to silence by not speaking. Or got up and left. He wasn't under arrest. His rights were not infringed upon. Whether the police tactics are agreed with or not.

That is why the interviews are recorded.

Nothing unusual happened in PS' interview. He was asked if he was lying. It was a tough interview. If he didn't like it, he should have got up and left.

imo

PS is a very odd person IMO. He had the reputation of being the street stickybeak in Benaroon Drive and did weird/inappropriate things like make unwelcome visits to the FGM and chase after the postwoman.

He may have the type of personality that enjoys being part of what's going on and wanting to talk about anything and everything, maybe thinking that he could be an insider on the case as a result of (in his mind) buddying-up with police.

I find it hard to believe the number of times he essentially welcomed police into his home. Seems that he didn't appreciate that police considered him a prime suspect, to the extent that his children had to implore him to stop talking to them -- and even that wasn't too successful it seems.

I've said here before that his personality quirks, weird behaviour and manner of talking doesn't help him look innocent.

 

[SouthAussie]

PS is a very odd person IMO. He had the reputation of being the street stickybeak in Benaroon Drive and did weird/inappropriate things like make unwelcome visits to the FGM and chase after the postwoman.

He may have the type of personality that enjoys being part of what's going on and wanting to talk about anything and everything, maybe thinking that he could be an insider on the case as a result of (in his mind) buddying-up with police.

I find it hard to believe the number of times he essentially welcomed police into his home. Seems that he didn't appreciate that police considered him a prime suspect, to the extent that his children had to implore him to stop talking to them -- and even that wasn't too successful it seems.

I've said here before that his personality quirks, weird behaviour and manner of talking doesn't help him look innocent.

Yes. And he also had an AVO against him by the postie. I think from an incident where he tried to hug and kiss her. He was scaring her with his behaviour.

As well as the 'missing two hours' where he was unaccounted for. Well, he accounted for himself, but it was nothing that could be proven. We don't even know if his caravan friend, Lyn, confirmed that he stopped by to see her that morning.

He may or may not have any involvement, but as you say, he doesn't do himself any favours.

Australia - Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, Nsw, 12 Sept 2014 - #50

Jamie McKinnell The case of former detective Gary Jubelin has heard a person of interest in the William Tyrrell investigation, Paul Savage, was the subject of an AVO for stalking a mail delivery woman. @abcnews @abcsydney Mr Savage lived close to the Kendall home where William vanished. In...

www.websleuths.com

 

[deugirtni]

No not specifically…. And yes the Police would proof if that was the case …

I just can’t imagine lying to the Coroner about such a thing? If it was a Police Strategy then that evidence should have been heard in a closed court …. And the Coroner made fully aware of the situation….

There may have been a closed court session about it?? Who knows??? But an inquest is not the place for Police Strategies to be played out to the public … it is for the truth… IMO …
And possibly for strategies to be heard after the case is solved …. And hopefully someone found accountable …

I think it's possible that FM did 'say' she saw the cars, whenever it was that she said it (later that night? two days later? four days later? six days later?), but LE disregarded it at the time as unworthy of pursuing, for their own reasons unknown to us (ie nobody else had seen them? or because she didn't mention them during the 000 call even when prompted by the 000 operator? or since she wasn't a usual resident of the neighborhood and by her own report hadn't visited in the past 7 months, how would she even have known these cars parking there were suspicious?)... then months later it came to GJ's attention that TJ had at the time, been driving a vehicle similar in appearance to what FM had described.. so he brought it to light at that time (coinciding with the one-year mark?), and used that as 'police strategy' to obtain a search warrant and have the vehicle examined. I recall GJ saying they had known this info (about FM seeing the cars) for some time even though not released to the public, and that everything LE does, is done strategically, according to their own needs. All of that said, it then gave GJ the perfect opportunity to check deeper into TJ, while also making it seem that his team was on the ball and the investigation was still very much active. imo.

 

[deugirtni]

Yes, so well before the inquest.... and some remarkable similarities with the possibly "observed cars".

However the memory of PS may have been altered by seeing the official images released in 2015??

Or PS may have seen those images and instantly remembered seeing them??? Or recognized them??

================================

Was it Parish that asked Abbot if it was RP's car as he thought the car looked familiar to the white one in the image??

================================

Somehow I don't think we will ever know.....

These are Lia Harris' tweets from the day PS testified at the inquest regarding the two cars (I can't guarantee 100% that they are in 100% correct order, and I believe they need to be read from bottom to top, but one can get the gist of it):

Lia Harris @LiaJHarris·Aug 22
His lawyer asks if all the “discussions” he’s had with police about the case over the past five years have “blended in” over time. Mr Savage responded “its a possibility”. @10NewsFirst @10Daily

Lia Harris @LiaJHarris·Aug 22
Mr Savage’s own lawyer is now questioning him. He told the court Mr Savage’s wife passed away from cancer in 2015 and his brother passed away earlier this year. @10NewsFirst @10Daily

Lia Harris @LiaJHarris·Aug 22
She asked Mr Savage if he might’ve told William’s foster mother about the cars he saw. He responded no, he didn’t think so. She asked if his wife might have and he said “no... not unless she did at bingo” @10NewsFirst @10Daily

Lia Harris @LiaJHarris·Aug 22
“Could you hear any toys or bikes or things like that” she asked. He responds no. @10Daily @10NewsFirst

Lia Harris @LiaJHarris·Aug 22
Other parties are now being given the chance to question Mr Savage. William’s biological father’s legal representative asks him about hearing the children playing the morning he disappeared. @10Daily @10NewsFirst

Lia Harris @LiaJHarris·Aug 22
The court heard there was no reference to the two cars in his first police statement on the 25th of September 2014. @10Daily @10NewsFirst

Lia Harris @LiaJHarris·Aug 22
He is asked if he was “absolutely sure” he saw them. He responds yes. He is asked if he told police about them after William disappeared and said he can’t remember if he did. “I told somebody... I can’t remember”. @10Daily
@10NewsFirst

Lia Harris @LiaJHarris·Aug 22
Mr Savage told the court he “hadn’t seen them before” and they were parked close together. @10NewsFirst @10Daily

Lia Harris @LiaJHarris·Aug 22
He told the court he now believes the white car was an older model Toyota Camry. Possibly a 90s model. The other was a “blue one... an older model” sedan. @10NewsFirst @10Daily

Lia Harris @LiaJHarris ·Aug 22
He told the court the windows were up and there was nobody inside. @10NewsFirst @10Daily

Lia Harris @LiaJHarris·Aug 22
Mr Savage tells the court he recalls seeing two cars parked on the street two days before William disappeared. He described them as a white one and a blue one, “maybe 60s or 70s” and both Holdens. @10NewsFirst @10Daily

Lia Harris @LiaJHarris·Aug 22
Mr Savage is asked if he watched the 60 Minutes program about the William Tyrrell case in 2016. He responded “I most probably did. I couldn’t tell you”. @10NewsFirst @10Daily