Australia Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sep 2014 - #72

[Chrissy74]

Just a thought……
Fgm tells officer in her walk through when walking out onto the back veranda “ this is where it all happened”
Thinking about that comment a little more it occurred to me that a fatal accident could have occurred right there on that decking. There’s been a lot of speculation about the last photo taken of W and the position in which the Ffc would have had to be in for that photo to be taken. As the chair closest to the edge (the chair Ffc was sitting in) was at the edge of the veranda in order for her to “crouch in an awkward position” to take the shot I wonder if the chair was either moved so the photo could be taken or if she was standing, crouching whatever on the actual chair and that’s why the position was awkward. If let’s say Ffc was standing on the chair when taking the last photo could W have been excited fascinated curious watching her do this and then decides to do the same but being a child not having the understanding of balance tipped the chair over and W fell off the chair hitting his head on the edge of the veranda? Just a thought. An accidental knock to the head of a child even from a short distance can be fatal. Perhaps W was unconscious and perhaps Ffc initial intention was to rush him to the closest hospital but realised along the way that he wasn’t waking up and that he was already deceased and then panic set in

 

[Megnut]

Correction: It was Detective Laura Beacroft who proposed the 10.05 - 10.15 am timeline (Australia - Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, Nsw, 12 Sept 2014 - #52)

...which means IMO the photographing was the precipitating event. (Or what precipitated the photograph precipitated what occurred.) And quickly. Scolding, educating, resentment, rigidity might have yielded devastating results. Within minutes even.

JMO

 

[Couldbe]

...which means IMO the photographing was the precipitating event. (Or what precipitated the photograph precipitated what occurred.) And quickly. Scolding, educating, resentment, rigidity might have yielded devastating results. Within even.

JMO

JMO – With the disappearance time having been estimated (first by Detective Beaucroft, and more recently by Laidlaw) to have occurred 'between 10.05/10.10 - 10.15' …. this would appear to show us that the actual NSW time for the photos has been accepted by LE as 9.37 – 9.39 am.

SO, if that is the case, scrutiny needs to be confined to the timeframe of between say 9.45am – 10.15am … (30 mins duration).
[……. It is during this time, that an accident or abduction would have occurred].

BUT, the movements of FFC, FFGM and MFC (from 9.45am until 11.06am) …. which is approx. 55 mins duration …. Until Senior Constable’s arrival at Benaroon.

Bearing in mind, OF COURSE, that MFC arrived back at 10.35am … and met Rowley inside at bathroom door/ and FFC was still out on the street doing her ‘searching’ until summoned back to the house by Rowley after 11.30am.

 

[nightrider17]

I think everyone is getting closer to what may have occurred.

Like Megnut - I think the 9.37 is the finish of activities, not the beginning of outside activities. The roaring photo - "w" has a look of frustration in his eyes - not so much enjoying roaring but roaring as a means of communicating frustration.

Megnut does pose a thought - how the photos were taken - supposedly spontaneous - for scrappbooking. But there is a oddness of them - which points more to what Megnut is suggesting that they are photos where taken to capture and perhaps demonstrate concerning behaviour like throwing dice, pencils around not using them to colour with. The fact others are not really captured in the photos - FFGM reading paper, sister furiously colouring seens odd.

I think originally the idea was the scenario of "w" walking away - this would garner lots of people looking/searching. So the "5 minutes" "Is he with you" - plays into the narrative of missing a short amount of time "he was just here".

As the days moved on - then perhaps the abduction scenario has to replace the wandered off - as the time points don't fit with the gone in "5 minutes" situation - so the 2 parked cars and the searching up and down the street, inside the house and including the car drive fits with the time gaps that became more obvious and apparent.

I am wondering if the FFGM's car was originally parked in the top carport, when the FFC came back from drive -did she drive up to the carport - then changes her mind - stops and does a turn and parks the FFGM's car in the bottom garage (This being the stop then turn the neighbours heard), perhaps she was driving quite quickly because she was running out of time.


The bottom garage - which is enclosed with a garage door.

I think the clues are in the conversations they had with the FFGM those tiny and annoying contradictions that seem to just not gel with the other story lines. JMO

 

[nightrider17]

Bearing in mind, OF COURSE, that MFC arrived back at 10.35am … and met Rowley inside at bathroom door/ and FFC was still out on the street doing her ‘searching’ until summoned back to the house by Rowley after 11.30am.

I am thinking the fact FFC was still out looking in the street - rather than waiting back at the house also seems odd - wouldn't she be the person they really needed to talk to first, more so than the MFC. Why would the MFC and FFGM be the ones choosing to stay put for the arrival of the police.

Was this stalling and to get a sense of walking the street to garner descriptions for the story, I heard this bird, I saw this reed. Getting information to "paint the picture". JMO

 

[nightrider17]

Maybe she drove out with "W" and met up with MFC as he was returning - before the street, and before he has made the "text" "back in 5 minutes" JMO

Just something we haven't explored - fits in with FFGM saying that MFC already seemed to know?? - maybe FFC met him on the journey home but before his message?? JMO

 

[Couldbe]

I think everyone is getting closer to what may have occurred.

Like Megnut - I think the 9.37 is the finish of activities, not the beginning of outside activities. The roaring photo - "w" has a look of frustration in his eyes - not so much enjoying roaring but roaring as a means of communicating frustration.

Megnut does pose a thought - how the photos were taken - supposedly spontaneous - for scrappbooking. But there is a oddness of them - which points more to what Megnut is suggesting that they are photos where taken to capture and perhaps demonstrate concerning behaviour like throwing dice, pencils around not using them to colour with. The fact others are not really captured in the photos - FFGM reading paper, sister furiously colouring seens odd.

I think originally the idea was the scenario of "w" walking away - this would garner lots of people looking/searching. So the "5 minutes" "Is he with you" - plays into the narrative of missing a short amount of time "he was just here".

As the days moved on - then perhaps the abduction scenario has to replace the wandered off - as the time points don't fit with the gone in "5 minutes" situation - so the 2 parked cars and the searching up and down the street, inside the house and including the car drive fits with the time gaps that became more obvious and apparent.

I am wondering if the FFGM's car was originally parked in the top carport, when the FFC came back from drive -did she drive up to the carport - then changes her mind - stops and does a turn and parks the FFGM's car in the bottom garage (This being the stop then turn the neighbours heard), perhaps she was driving quite quickly because she was running out of time.


The bottom garage - which is enclosed with a garage door.

I think the clues are in the conversations they had with the FFGM those tiny and annoying contradictions that seem to just not gel with the other story lines. JMO

Australia - Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, Nsw, 12 Sept 2014 - #52 Sorry for ramble just how I thought the morning went from what I have read so far from book. MFC leaves around 8.40 Kids have breakfast Kids dressed teeth brushed FFC called BS at 9.03 William gets bored inside so FFC takes William down to play in yard/climb tree. FFC see two cars parked... www.websleuths.com

10:35 : MFC arrives back in Benaroon Drive, meets FFC in driveway

JMO - There is a also space beside the carport where a vehicle could also park:

(William Tyrrell foster father quizzed over mystery phone)

 

[nightrider17]

I think Couldbe this is where the car might have originally been parked - 2 cars can fit one on either side. But maybe it was moved to the lower garage area which is enclosed. JMO

 

[Kemug]

I really don't understand why FFC took a photo of William just then. If he was acting up, and she was getting more and more exasperated, that is not a time when a parent thinks "Oh, he's just so cute, I must take a photo". So why?

 

[Couldbe]

I think Couldbe this is where the car might have originally been parked - 2 cars can fit one on either side. But maybe it was moved to the lower garage area which is enclosed. JMO

At 10.35am, and according to DrSleuth's timeline, MFC drove in on the driveway and met FFC there.
I am wondering why FFC was 'on the driveway' at that time.... was she waiting for him to arrive (having just received his text at 10.30am?
BUT, if the Detectives' estimates of the ...- 10.15am actual time of William's disappearance ('gone quiet' time), then her 'searching' duration (which would include her Mazda drive) of 20 mins has elapsed. SO, was it at this time (10.35) that she had just returned from her Mazda drive ... parked in the carport....and met MFC on the driveway... as she was just alighting from the Mazda?

 

[Chrissy74]

I think everyone is getting closer to what may have occurred.

Like Megnut - I think the 9.37 is the finish of activities, not the beginning of outside activities. The roaring photo - "w" has a look of frustration in his eyes - not so much enjoying roaring but roaring as a means of communicating frustration.

Megnut does pose a thought - how the photos were taken - supposedly spontaneous - for scrappbooking. But there is a oddness of them - which points more to what Megnut is suggesting that they are photos where taken to capture and perhaps demonstrate concerning behaviour like throwing dice, pencils around not using them to colour with. The fact others are not really captured in the photos - FFGM reading paper, sister furiously colouring seens odd.

I think originally the idea was the scenario of "w" walking away - this would garner lots of people looking/searching. So the "5 minutes" "Is he with you" - plays into the narrative of missing a short amount of time "he was just here".

As the days moved on - then perhaps the abduction scenario has to replace the wandered off - as the time points don't fit with the gone in "5 minutes" situation - so the 2 parked cars and the searching up and down the street, inside the house and including the car drive fits with the time gaps that became more obvious and apparent.

I am wondering if the FFGM's car was originally parked in the top carport, when the FFC came back from drive -did she drive up to the carport - then changes her mind - stops and does a turn and parks the FFGM's car in the bottom garage (This being the stop then turn the neighbours heard), perhaps she was driving quite quickly because she was running out of time.


The bottom garage - which is enclosed with a garage door.

I think the clues are in the conversations they had with the FFGM those tiny and annoying contradictions that seem to just not gel with the other story lines. JMO

Hi NR17
From memory I think PS at the inquest was asked questions relating to seeing or not seeing the fp and FGM car that morning of the 12th on his way out for a walk and on his return and when seeing walking his wife out to her carI need to go back and see if I can locate this information. He may have even been asked about the positioning of the cars (in driveway / front of house).

 

[Curiouskatz11]

At 10.35am, and according to DrSleuth's timeline, MFC drove in on the driveway and met FFC there.
I am wondering why FFC was 'on the driveway' at that time.... was she waiting for him to arrive (having just received his text at 10.30am?
BUT, if the Detectives' estimates of the ...- 10.15am actual time of William's disappearance ('gone quiet' time), then her 'searching' duration (which would include her Mazda drive) of 20 mins has elapsed. SO, was it at this time (10.35) that she had just returned from her Mazda drive ... parked in the carport....and met MFC on the driveway... as she was just alighting from the Mazda?

Yes, it’s just so strange to go for a drive just after W had just disappeared. Before you could possibly have searched the property and neighbouring ones on foot. This scenario of both returning to the property around the same time is an interesting one! FGM said how he knew, I don’t know - he’d tell you.

Agree that the photos on the deck are odd. W barefoot, L seemingly still in her dressing gown. FGM seemingly looking at her newspaper. Except for the ’roaring’ one, nobody looking at the camera or smiling. Nothing scrapbookworthy imo.

The timeline makes no sense to me and has been deliberately obscured IMO. We can speculate, but I trust that LE knows much more.

 

[Couldbe]

Yes, it’s just so strange to go for a drive just after W had just disappeared. Before you could possibly have searched the property and neighbouring ones on foot. This scenario of both returning to the property around the same time is an interesting one! FGM said how he knew, I don’t know - he’d tell you.

Agree that the photos on the deck are odd. W barefoot, L seemingly still in her dressing gown. FGM seemingly looking at her newspaper. Except for the ’roaring’ one, nobody looking at the camera or smiling. Nothing scrapbookworthy imo.

The timeline makes no sense to me and has been deliberately obscured IMO. We can speculate, but I trust that LE knows much more.

Curiouskatz, do you think that is the same blue jacket (maybe not her dressing gown) in the Macca's photo?

 

[bearbear]

Carrying this forward for the link.

34:13 The foster mother says she doesn't like looking at that photo of Wm. (The iconic one)

Why?

He was alive and happy and playing....

It's just a weird thing to say IMO. Wouldn't you cherish every photo?

JMO

i guess if she was innocent of harming william it would be understandable, as a reminder of an unhappy day? and if guilty, also a reminder of a very bad day!

 

[Megnut]

I really don't understand why FFC took a photo of William just then. If he was acting up, and she was getting more and more exasperated, that is not a time when a parent thinks "Oh, he's just so cute, I must take a photo". So why?

She said he was roaring.  She said he was playing Daddy Tiger (and at a time "Daddy" wasn't there, no less). If we cancel those put on account of her credibility factor, why did she take photos? Why then, why those? And for whom?

I truly think she felt like Wm was uncontrollable, even out of control. The toys. The deliberate bike crash. The dice. The crayons. The favoritism.

Let's face it. Everyone who dies has a last photo. When they're very young or it's very sudden, those photos always take on a life of their own. Sometimes the photos are eerily close to the event. A kid at an amusement park, two rides before a fatal one. A bride killed in a car accident on the day of her wedding. A teen enjoying time on a boat...

I don't think anyone expected those to be Wm's last photos, but I do think they feature into the event.

IMO Wm was supposed to be coloring. Because the foster mother had a plan. To go to the cemetery. With artwork. And Wm wasn't cooperating. He wasn't rolling crayons correctly either, I daresay. (I think the foster mother was waaaaaay out of her lane, had no concept for normal childhood behavior!)

Anyone here ever video tape a temper tantrum? I think she was chronicling his behavior. Wouldn't wear the singlet. Wouldn't roll the die nicely. Wouldn't draw nicely. Wouldn't sit still. Wouldn't like her equally. Wouldn't be  good child and draw like the  good foster girl.

If the timestamps are accurate, she was in the car within about 10 minutes of that last photo. Wit's end?

Whatever it was, it happened fast.

JMO

 

[Couldbe]

I am wondering what happened to 'photo 1101' ... and who was/were in the photograph ... obviously LE would be able to determine if it was created on that same morning ... and its time ?
JMO - it might have been withheld for an 'evidential' reason!
Of course, it may have been deleted (and why?).
The FFC had initially told LE that she had taken '3 photos'!(IN THEIR WORDS: William Tyrrell's parents talk of the day their boy went missing and the 'living nightmare' they endure)
Australia - Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, NSW, 12 Sep 2014 - #71
The 5 photos that were released by the Coroner were taken within a 2min 39sec timespan.
9:35:05 (photo 1102)
9:35:19 (photo 1103)
9:35:28 (photo 1104)
9:37:29 (photo 1105)
9:37:44 (the famous pic)

 

[drsleuth]

A hell of a lot of assumptions are being made here that William was so " out of control" hard to handle etc that morning & that the FFC was " at her wits end" ( she had said it was normal behaviour for a 3 yr old to her mother at one stage )

A big deal is being made of the "throwing" the dice etc, crashing his bike, not wanting to draw etc.

Time for some context maybe?

The dice game was very brief, 30-60 seconds, yep seconds! He wasn't "scolded" over not rolling the dice, it was explained to him that you roll it to see what number it lands on ect, hardly not co-operating IMO

The kid were also doing some of the drawing inside, it's not like William refused to do it at all!

He crashed the bike once, after seeing his sister do the same, hardly out of control imo

IMO he wasn't out of control, he was a 3 yr old boy , out of his usual environment with a short attention span, excited even maybe.......


As for the photos, why does anyone take photos?? To record a moment in time, we have no idea how many photos were taken that morning. Just because they aren't "posed" for photos doesn't make them at all "suspicious "IMO

They could have taken posed family photos that morning too, we just don't know, do we?

In the last photo I just don't see it as an "acting" up photo at all

All IMO of course

 

[FromGermany1]

(Counsel assisting the coroner, Gerard Craddock SC, asked the man: “You didn’t stop and have a conversation with her [the foster mother] about where she’d already searched, is there any reason for that?”).
William Tyrrell's foster father 'hysterical' when child went missing, inquest hears

^^ This!

 

[seekingjustice**]

Maybe she drove out with "W" and met up with MFC as he was returning - before the street, and before he has made the "text" "back in 5 minutes" JMO

Just something we haven't explored - fits in with FFGM saying that MFC already seemed to know?? - maybe FFC met him on the journey home but before his message?? JMO

This makes sense considering FFGM's statement about MFC already being aware somehow.

Like others have suggested, I also believe whatever happened to William, happened just after the last picture was taken which changes the timeline and allows more than enough time for the FFC to dispose of evidence.

Going on accidental death theory:

Last photo 9.37
Accident between 9.38 am - 9.40 am
FFC discovery of fatality 9.42
FFGM completely unaware and sitting on verandah with other child
9.42 FFC in panic mode - can't lose other child and can't be seen as neglectful
9.44 FFC picks William up and places inside FFGM car - goes inside via front door to get car keys
9.47 drives to unknown destination to hide William - possible that she caught up with MFC along the way.

JMO

 

[Couldbe]

This makes sense considering FFGM's statement about MFC already being aware somehow.

Like others have suggested, I also believe whatever happened to William, happened just after the last picture was taken which changes the timeline and allows more than enough time for the FFC to dispose of evidence.

Going on accidental death theory:

Last photo 9.37
Accident between 9.38 am - 9.40 am
FFC discovery of fatality 9.42
FFGM completely unaware and sitting on verandah with other child
9.42 FFC in panic mode - can't lose other child and can't be seen as neglectful
9.44 FFC picks William up and places inside FFGM car - goes inside via front door to get car keys
9.47 drives to unknown destination to hide William - possible that she caught up with MFC along the way.

JMO

Possibly Seekingjustice" ..... MFC would have concluded his Zoom call at 9.55am; and had arrived at Lakewood to have had his script filled and paid for at 10.15am.