Australia Australia - William Tyrrell Disappeared While Playing in Yard - Kendall (NSW) #77

[Chrissy74]

I would also like to know more about the 90min mfc was searching for W that morning. Mfc says in his walkthrough that he searched the area for 90min. If he arrived home at 10:35 and police arrived at 11:06 by my calculations that’s 31min. First attending officer when he arrived at the fgm house found the mfc coming out of the bathroom. So how did mfc come to the conclusion that he searched the area for 90mim? I know there was a 96min gap from the time W went missing to the time police arrived. Going by the mfc timeline we also know that from the time he left fgm to the time he returned was 90min. So was he searching from the time W disappeared rather than 10:35?
At what point did the 90min search begin? Was mfc referring to a 90min search perhaps after his initial 25mib search but officer Rowley told the mfc to remain at the house. What’s the importance of 90min???????????

 

[SLouTh]

I would also like to know more about the 90min mfc was searching for W that morning. Mfc says in his walkthrough that he searched the area for 90min. If he arrived home at 10:35 and police arrived at 11:06 by my calculations that’s 31min. First attending officer when he arrived at the fgm house found the mfc coming out of the bathroom. So how did mfc come to the conclusion that he searched the area for 90mim? I know there was a 96min gap from the time W went missing to the time police arrived. So was he searching from the time W disappeared rather than 10:35?

I personally think that “real time” versus “perceived time” in a critical incident can be variable …..
Sometimes it can feel like an eternity (during a critical incident) …. Where as, it was actually only a few minutes, and vice versa, the opposite can also apply ….

And mostly it is quite surprising to look back at the actual “real” times, where you are in the luxury position of having “critical incidents“ documented … because on most occasions, in retrospect, it didn’t “feel“ like things happened at those actual “real times” ..

Perhaps it “felt like” 90mins of searching at the time ??? As, Police have again publicly cleared the FF as a POI, this last week, then I would suggest that his alibi checked out and that his arrival time back at FGM house was correct ….(meaning, I don’t believe he was at home searching at 10am ish when William went missing for that to be included in the 90min period …) But all MOO ….

MOO

 

[JLZ]

I would also like to know more about the 90min mfc was searching for W that morning. Mfc says in his walkthrough that he searched the area for 90min. If he arrived home at 10:35 and police arrived at 11:06 by my calculations that’s 31min. First attending officer when he arrived at the fgm house found the mfc coming out of the bathroom. So how did mfc come to the conclusion that he searched the area for 90mim? I know there was a 96min gap from the time W went missing to the time police arrived. Going by the mfc timeline we also know that from the time he left fgm to the time he returned was 90min. So was he searching from the time W disappeared rather than 10:35?
At what point did the 90min search begin? Was mfc referring to a 90min search perhaps after his initial 25mib search but officer Rowley told the mfc to remain at the house. What’s the importance of 90min???????????

You would need to know what he did after his toilet break. If he went back out searching the same area for another hour, that would be his ninety minutes. If instead he talked to police for a quarter of an hour and then went up the track for a good stretch of time, ninety minutes is just wrong.

 

[SLouTh]

She wasn’t truthful about the shoes W wasn’t wearing when he went missing.

Is there any real tangible evidence to support this statement??

Like for example, do Police have William’s shoes… ???? Have they found them??? (And where did they find them? )

Were the shoes still on the back deck at the time of the “official forensic photos“ of the back deck that day??? Can they be seen in the forensic photos?? (Assuming forensic photos were taken that afternoon ) And if so, why didn’t Police collect them as evidence that day… ???

Do Police have CCTV of him “not wearing them“, when he disappeared??

Those are the types of proof, that I would consider evidence….

Or is it just another “theory” that has been misconstrued as a “factual statement”, like many other theories in this case, IMO ????

I would very much like to read about this evidence, in an authorised link, if this statement is a fact …. ?

All MOO

 

[Couldbe]

JMO - Some answers coming up:-

Georgina Mitchell September 22, 2023 — 11.28am William Tyrrell inquest to be advised on foster mother’s potential charges Underlined BM

“The Director of Public Prosecutions will give advice by January next year on the viability of laying charges against William Tyrrell’s foster mother, a court has been told, after police submitted a brief of evidence suggesting the woman could be charged with concealing the toddler’s accidental death.”

“On Friday, Grahame said the case would now return for a further two weeks of hearings, beginning on March 4 next year.”

 

[SouthAussie]

Now that the only poi is the Ffc suddenly some have a change of mind. <modsnip: Personalizing>

I don't think that is true. There could be any number of POIs at this point in time, or none at all.

Lonergan said under oath in court last Monday ... “We constantly discuss it,” Lonergan said. “It's one of those topics – that we simply don't know what happened to him that day.”. Link

imo

 

[Chrissy74]

Is there any real tangible evidence to support this statement??

Like for example, do Police have William’s shoes… ???? Have they found them??? (And where did they find them? )

Were the shoes still on the back deck at the time of the “official forensic photos“ of the back deck that day??? Can they be seen in the forensic photos?? (Assuming forensic photos were taken that afternoon ) And if so, why didn’t Police collect them as evidence that day… ???

Do Police have CCTV of him “not wearing them“, when he disappeared??

Those are the types of proof, that I would consider evidence….

Or is it just another “theory” that has been misconstrued as a “factual statement”, like many other theories in this case, IMO ????

I would very much like to read about this evidence, in an authorised link, if this statement is a fact …. ?

All MOO

First and foremost NO ONE who was at the fgm house that morning has been cleared. NO ONE. Media can report whatever they like but until it’s been officially announced by the leading detective on Ws case that mfc has been cleared then all things are possible. 90min is a time that fits in with the time mfc was not at the house that morning. Yes I understand that 20min can feel like so much more in a situation like that of the morning W disappeared but mfc specifically says 90min. PS decided to look for W that morning which took some time as he got lost on his return. GJ grilled PS about that timeframe and what if any relevance it had to the case. Mfc tells police he searched the grounds for 90min so why wasn’t he grilled over a time that was impossible given he wasn’t home until 10:35 and given he was told by the first attending officer to stay at the house? To date I’ve not heard or read anything about mfc searching for W after police arrived. We know mfc assisted in the search the following day and most days thereafter but nothing about that morning after 11:06. That 90mins is a crucial piece of evidence as it comes directly from the horses mouth so to speak. Not from media not from podcasts but from mfc himself

 

[SouthAussie]

Media can report whatever they like but until it’s been officially announced by the leading detective on Ws case that mfc has been cleared then all things are possible.

FD was cleared (under oath) last Monday in court. When a detective states something under oath in court, they are not supposed to be committing perjury.

Police 'don't know' what happened to William Tyrrell but foster father has been cleared, court told

The foster father is facing charges of giving false or misleading evidence to the NSW Crime Commission, as the court heard new details of the investigation into William's disappearance.

www.abc.net.au

imo

 

[Couldbe]

....... Earlier this year, InFocus made this post in regard to the time of William’s disappearance, and I think they are valid points:

https://www.webe.sleuths.com/forums/threads/australia-william-tyrrell-disappeared-while-playing-in-yard-kendall-nsw-74.648635/post-18204180

“Actually, you would want MFC, FFC, and FGM to have "corroborating" evidence - a collection of facts and information that backs up someone's story. You want the exact time frames of all 3 otherwise red flags are raised.

The FGM is adamant she never saw MFC that morning in the walk-through video. FFC and MFC suggest he left around 9-ish Yet we have various times given when he left, especially if you're to believe CO's version in her book.

If they couldn't corroborate that basic (seeing each other) piece of info, then "Houston, we have a problem!" The walk-through video was done within a week of September 12th, so it's not like you couldn't remember exactly who was present and when. It's not hard to recall if you saw/didn't see someone and the other 2 parties place all 3 people still at the house. If one party is suggesting something different then that raises the possibility someone is not telling the truth.

There are time discrepancies with MFC, FFC, and FGM for good reason IMO.

Why is it that the time of William's disappearance has been allowed to be moved from 10:30 am to 10:10-10:15 am over the years? Not even Mr. Jubelin has raised an eyelid over this. Instead, he put 100% focus on Spedding and Savage and we now know how that all went down.

When does FMC take that drive to Batar Creek Rd? Is the timeline shifted back to fit the drive into the 10:15 am-10:30 am window? If so, then all the stories about him going missing at 10:30 have suddenly become unbelievable. Even in the police public interview in 2015, the FFC mumbled under her breath "no that is not right", responding to MFC saying 10:15 am is the last time he was seen.

If 10:30 am is the time he disappeared how on earth does FFC make the drive to Batar Creek Rd and be back to greet the MFC in the driveway? We know for a fact she takes the drive to Batar Creek Rd, that's indisputable.

You can't have it both ways when it comes to times and discrepancies. Time will bring someone's version undone with all the flip-flopping. I'm sure Mr. Laidlaw is aware of this.”

 

[Chrissy74]

FD was cleared (under oath) last Monday in court. When a detective states something under oath in court, they are not supposed to be committing perjury.

Police 'don't know' what happened to William Tyrrell but foster father has been cleared, court told

The foster father is facing charges of giving false or misleading evidence to the NSW Crime Commission, as the court heard new details of the investigation into William's disappearance.

www.abc.net.au

imo

This would be the same detective who under oath told the court he wasn’t lying when he told the Ffc he knows what happened to W that morning, “we know how we know why we know where”. Yet now we have reports contradicting the officer’s statement. Was Detective L lying about knowing what happened to W as reports would now have us believe and If so what’s to say he isn’t lying about clearing the mfc from any involvement in Ws disappearance if he has previously lied under oath?

 

[Chrissy74]

Is there any real tangible evidence to support this statement??

Like for example, do Police have William’s shoes… ???? Have they found them??? (And where did they find them? )

Were the shoes still on the back deck at the time of the “official forensic photos“ of the back deck that day??? Can they be seen in the forensic photos?? (Assuming forensic photos were taken that afternoon ) And if so, why didn’t Police collect them as evidence that day… ???

Do Police have CCTV of him “not wearing them“, when he disappeared??

Those are the types of proof, that I would consider evidence….

Or is it just another “theory” that has been misconstrued as a “factual statement”, like many other theories in this case, IMO ????

I would very much like to read about this evidence, in an authorised link, if this statement is a fact …. ?

All MOO

the proof is in their statements and walkthroughs not from any media reports and links. Fgm Ffc and Ws sister all say the same thing in their statements that W was roaring like a tiger and then around the side of the house. Ffc tells 60min that in the last photo of W he was roaring like a tiger. She also says that she didn’t like looking at the last photo of W as it was only minutes later W disappeared. Fgm tells police W got bored of playing with the dice annd began to roar like a tiger and jumped off the / back stairs and ran around the side of the house. Ws sister tells police W was roaring like a tiger on the grass and then ran to the side of the house. Not one of them mention anything about W putting his shoes on in between the last photo and him rolling around roaring like a tiger. W was in his boisterous playful mood when he decided he no longer wanted to draw or roll dice but wanted to play like a tiger.
As for the shoes and where they are, your guess is as good as mine Slouth. Ffc could have put them in her handbag for all we know. I don’t think police were looking in her handbag for W

 

[Chrissy74]

You would need to know what he did after his toilet break. If he went back out searching the same area for another hour, that would be his ninety minutes. If instead he talked to police for a quarter of an hour and then went up the track for a good stretch of time, ninety minutes is just wrong.

In the mfc walkthrough he tells detectives that there’s a method to his madness as he walks detective’s through the area at the back of the house where he searched. He looked in there, went up there, didn’t see anyone at that time and eventually came across a neighbour having a cigarette and asks if she had seen a little boy, he’s name W. He tells detectives that he searched these grounds for 90min”. He doesn’t say he searched the grounds until police arrived and again after police arrived so altogether he was searching for about 90min. No. He specifically says he searched everywhere for 90min until he eventually came across AMS on the road

 

[SLouTh]

the proof is in their statements and walkthroughs not from any media reports and links. Fgm Ffc and Ws sister all say the same thing in their statements that W was roaring like a tiger and then around the side of the house. Ffc tells 60min that in the last photo of W he was roaring like a tiger. She also says that she didn’t like looking at the last photo of W as it was only minutes later W disappeared. Fgm tells police W got bored of playing with the dice annd began to roar like a tiger and jumped off the / back stairs and ran around the side of the house. Ws sister tells police W was roaring like a tiger on the grass and then ran to the side of the house. Not one of them mention anything about W putting his shoes on in between the last photo and him rolling around roaring like a tiger.
As for the shoes and where they are, your guess is as good as mine Slouth. Ffc could have put them in her handbag for all we know. I don’t think police were looking in her handbag for W

To me, that is definitely not “proof” beyond all reasonable doubt that William wasn’t wearing shoes when he went missing….

I prefer solid evidence … and presumably by your reply, you can not provide a link for the initial statement that was made, being this one:

She wasn’t truthful about the shoes W wasn’t wearing when he went missing

Show me an interview with the FM specifically being interrogated about William’s shoes, (preferably with the shoes having been found by Police, and placed in front of her… ) and I may consider it to be of more importance than just the random selection of snippets from the recollections of that morning, that you have quoted …

IMO this still falls into the category of a “theory”…



I also note the following ….

First and foremost NO ONE who was at the fgm house that morning has been cleared. NO ONE.

BBM

That is your opinion, others are allowed to have opinions that differ…

So from your above statement, that would include the other child (William’s sister) that was present at the FGM house that morning ?????

It has been reported in a documentary that the William’s sister was the “last person to see him alive” that morning ….see this post below …

Post in thread 'Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, Nsw, 12 Sept 2014 - #57'
Australia - Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, Nsw, 12 Sept 2014 - #57

Just an interesting thought…. In regards to your statement …

All IMO

 

[Chrissy74]

To me, that is definitely not “proof” beyond all reasonable doubt that William wasn’t wearing shoes when he went missing….

I prefer solid evidence … and presumably by your reply, you can not provide a link for the initial statement that was made, being this one:


Show me an interview with the FM specifically being interrogated about William’s shoes, (preferably with the shoes having been found by Police, and placed in front of her… ) and I may consider it to be of more importance than just the random selection of snippets from the recollections of that morning, that you have quoted …

IMO this still falls into the category of a “theory”…



I also note the following ….


BBM

That is your opinion, others are allowed to have opinions that differ…

So from your above statement, that would include the other child (William’s sister) that was present at the FGM house that morning ?????

It has been reported in a documentary that the William’s sister was the “last person to see him alive” that morning ….see this post below …

Post in thread 'Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, Nsw, 12 Sept 2014 - #57'
Australia - Australia - William Tyrrell, 3, Kendall, Nsw, 12 Sept 2014 - #57

Just an interesting thought…. In regards to your statement …

All IMO

the interview regarding shoes
‎Where's William Tyrrell?: The Little Boy in the Spiderman Suit on Apple Podcasts
34 minutes in.

As for Ws sister being the last person to see W alive how is possible when L Ffc and fgm all say she was drawing on the back deck while both adults were talking with her and to each other when W ran around to the side of the house and disappeared. W started playing a game called daddy tiger, he wanted L to play but she kept drawing. He roared and ran around to the side of the house. So how is it then possible for L to have been the last person to see W alive unless she was the only person watching W as he ran to the side of the house

 

[SLouTh]

This would be the same detective who under oath told the court he wasn’t lying when he told the Ffc he knows what happened to W that morning, “we know how we know why we know where”. Yet now we have reports contradicting the officer’s statement. Was Detective L lying about knowing what happened to W as reports would now have us believe and If so what’s to say he isn’t lying about clearing the mfc from any involvement in Ws disappearance if he has previously lied under oath?

I am not sure that the above BBM statement was made under oath, in a court ….and not by Detective Lonergan ???

IIRC the statement was made at the Fosters Home when the summons to attend the NSWCC Hearing was delivered ….and as evidenced by the following link, the statement being referred to was said by Detective Sgt Scott Jamieson….

Lonergan, however, did tell the court under oath that he believed the FM knew where William was located … a totally different statement to that bolded above …



In November, in a case that was later dismissed by a Local Court Magistrate, Detective Sergeant Andrew Lonergan told the Downing Centre Local Court he believed the foster mother knew the location of the little boy.

Defence barrister John Stratton SC suggested the detective had formed a "false belief".

Mr Stratton put to the court that police had charged the woman with lying to the commission in order to pressure her and "break her spirit".

"Our main objective is to find out where William Tyrrell is," Det Sgt Lonergan replied.

Det. Sgt Lonergan also denied his colleague Det Sgt Scott Jamieson deliberately lied to the woman when he told her: "We know why, we know how, we know where he is."

"I knew the area in which I believed William was," Det Sgt Jamieson told the court.

Stunning claim from detectives about what happened to William Tyrrell's body

Detectives in the William Tyrrell case suspect the toddler's body was dumped in bushland by his foster mother after he accidentally died falling from the family home's balcony.

www.skynews.com.au

 

[Chrissy74]

I am not sure that the above BBM statement was made under oath, in a court ….and not by Detective Lonergan ???

IIRC the statement was made at the Fosters Home when the summons to attend the NSWCC Hearing was delivered ….and as evidenced by the following link, the statement being referred to was said by Detective Sgt Scott Jamieson….

Lonergan, however, did tell the court under oath that he believed the FM knew where William was located … a totally different statement to that bolded above …



In November, in a case that was later dismissed by a Local Court Magistrate, Detective Sergeant Andrew Lonergan told the Downing Centre Local Court he believed the foster mother knew the location of the little boy.

Defence barrister John Stratton SC suggested the detective had formed a "false belief".

Mr Stratton put to the court that police had charged the woman with lying to the commission in order to pressure her and "break her spirit".

"Our main objective is to find out where William Tyrrell is," Det Sgt Lonergan replied.

Det. Sgt Lonergan also denied his colleague Det Sgt Scott Jamieson deliberately lied to the woman when he told her: "We know why, we know how, we know where he is."

"I knew the area in which I believed William was," Det Sgt Jamieson told the court.

Stunning claim from detectives about what happened to William Tyrrell's body

Detectives in the William Tyrrell case suspect the toddler's body was dumped in bushland by his foster mother after he accidentally died falling from the family home's balcony.

www.skynews.com.au

Det. Sgt Lonergan also denied his colleague Det Sgt Scott Jamieson deliberately lied to the woman when he told her: "We know why, we know how, we know where he is."
“We constantly discuss it,” Lonergan said. “It's one of those topics – that we simply don't know what happened to him that day.”.

Lonergan under oath denied that SJ deliberately lied about knowing what happened to W. Now under oath Lonergan is saying they don’t know what happened to W.

???????

 

[SLouTh]

the interview regarding shoes
‎Where's William Tyrrell?: The Little Boy in the Spiderman Suit on Apple Podcasts
34 minutes in.

I have re listened from 33mins onwards … there is no mention of Police interviewing the FM about William’s shoes ….
Perhaps a different episode ….???

But in the many years of following this case, I have never heard about the Police specifically interviewing the FM about William’s shoes ….. however I would be most interested in reading a transcript of it, if it happened ..

IMO

 

[SLouTh]

Det. Sgt Lonergan also denied his colleague Det Sgt Scott Jamieson deliberately lied to the woman when he told her: "We know why, we know how, we know where he is."
“We constantly discuss it,” Lonergan said. “It's one of those topics – that we simply don't know what happened to him that day.”.

Lonergan under oath denied that SJ deliberately lied about knowing what happened to W. Now under oath Lonergan is saying they don’t know what happened to W.

???????

It would appear to me, that SFR (and Lonergan) tested a ”theory” about what might have happened to William that day, and have failed to yield an affirmative result …. At this point in time …

At the end of nine years, Police are admitting, they, (like the rest of us) have no proof of what happened to William the day he went missing …

Sure, they can speculate and develop theories… but at the end of the day they still have no proof…. especially beyond a reasonable doubt … IMO

MOO

 

[Chrissy74]

I have re listened from 33mins onwards … there is no mention of Police interviewing the FM about William’s shoes ….
Perhaps a different episode ….???

But in the many years of following this case, I have never heard about the Police specifically interviewing the FM about William’s shoes ….. however I would be most interested in reading a transcript of it, if it happened ..

IMO

That’s a really good point thank you Slouth. Such an important piece of information that’s been discussed but never disclosed. Was the Ffc asked about the shoes in questioning at the inquest? Does anyone know if Ffc was asked about Ws shoes at the inquest?

 

[k-mac]

I would also like to know more about the 90min mfc was searching for W that morning. Mfc says in his walkthrough that he searched the area for 90min. If he arrived home at 10:35 and police arrived at 11:06 by my calculations that’s 31min. First attending officer when he arrived at the fgm house found the mfc coming out of the bathroom. So how did mfc come to the conclusion that he searched the area for 90mim? I know there was a 96min gap from the time W went missing to the time police arrived. Going by the mfc timeline we also know that from the time he left fgm to the time he returned was 90min. So was he searching from the time W disappeared rather than 10:35?
At what point did the 90min search begin? Was mfc referring to a 90min search perhaps after his initial 25mib search but officer Rowley told the mfc to remain at the house. What’s the importance of 90min???????????

leakage

good thought provoking catch chrissy