Australia Australia - William Tyrrell Disappeared While Playing in Yard - Kendall (NSW) #79

[drsleuth]

Thanks.

(Wish these podcasts had a speed control on them -- like YouTube where I can listen at 2x and get through it in half the time.)

You can listen to it on Youtube

 

[JBowie]

You can listen to it on Youtube

Many thanks!

These guys are slow talkers so playing at 2X is still perfectly understandable.

 

[JBowie]

Personally, I don't put any weight on William's sister's evidence.

In my experience and observation, a 4 year old can have ideas put into their heads by adults pretty easily and, years later, after being told a story about an event many times, can come to believe that they were there at the time although they have no real memory of it.

For example: I recall her being quoted as saying "A bad man took William" or words to that effect. It's my opinion that she did not witness any such thing but was told that by her fosters and came to believe it.

 

[drsleuth]

Personally, I don't put any weight on William's sister's evidence.

In my experience and observation, a 4 year old can have ideas put into their heads by adults pretty easily and, years later, after being told a story about an event many times, can come to believe that they were there at the time although they have no real memory of it.

For example: I recall her being quoted as saying "A bad man took William" or words to that effect. It's my opinion that she did not witness any such thing but was told that by her fosters and came to believe it.

But she did tell WH that William went to look for daddy's car with hours, when she was asked what she remembered. WH arrived @ approx 12:45

 

[JLZ]

But she did tell WH that William went to look for daddy's car with hours, when she was asked what she remembered. WH arrived @ approx 12:45

But William's reason for going somewhere isn't an observable fact, is it? Both FFC and L have attributed to him the same motive. And L couldn't explain why she thought so. That suggests either the child is picking up something from FFC's version, or the other way around.

 

[drsleuth]

I was talking about very soon after, what she said he did.

I'm sure that the FF had to have some reason to tell L, other than he just disappeared!

What would you tell her in their situation??

 

[JLZ]

I was talking about very soon after, what she said he did.

I'm sure that the FF had to have some reason to tell L, other than he just disappeared!

What would you tell her in their situation??

You made a fair point, it was very soon after (I suggest from about 1:30 that WH was speaking to the family) and IMO she asked L when FFC was briefly absent. I'm not saying FFC did something wrong in talking about it with L or in L's presence. I'm certainly not saying L was 'coached' in that short time, or that L would have absorbed FFC's story if it had been completely different from what happened. But it seems to me the stories are not independent, one is reflecting another, and that detail about William's reason for going out of sight is unreliable.

 

[SouthAussie]

But it seems to me the stories are not independent, one is reflecting another, and that detail about William's reason for going out of sight is unreliable.

That detail about William's reason for going out of sight makes more sense to me than anything else I have heard or read anywhere.

The children were known to greet FD when he got home each day. William had a close relationship with FD. They were going to the cemetery once FD got home, to visit FGD's grave. They had been drawing pictures that morning for the gravesite. Anticipating their next adventure (going to the gravesite), it wouldn't surprise me at all for William to have been keeping an eye out for FD's vehicle.

Did "Lindsay" assume that is where William went, or did she actually see him run towards a vehicle? I guess we may never know, despite her best efforts to relay the thoughts from her 4-year old mind.

I doubt that the children would have had clear vision of a vehicle, just glimpses of it through the trees as it drove up the street. Perhaps to William's eyes it looked like daddy's car, and "Lindsay" was not articulate enough to say that William ran towards what he thought was daddy's car.

imo

 

[Chrissy74]

But she did tell WH that William went to look for daddy's car with hours, when she was asked what she remembered. WH arrived @ approx 12:45

I thought the only question WH asked L that day was whether or not the kids had any hiding spots where W might hide. This I believe was in response to fm initially telling police W and L were playing hide and seek. Just Another example of how the fm story evolved from the day W disappeared to the days months years that followed. I remember in the first few days weeks it was reported W and L were playing together around the front of the house. First it was hide and seek, then it was a game of chasey. Then the story changed to W looking out for daddy’s car. Then it changed to W playing daddy tiger and would run around the corner and jump back out and roar at the fm (however fgm states that after W went around the side of the house she didn’t hear or see him again). The missing persons website has a detailed timeline from when W went missing and in the first few days it was reported that W was playing with his sister when he vanished but how could that be when later we are told L was drawing on the veranda while the adults sat on 2 chairs sipping their teas and talking and W was playing daddy tiger on his own only metres away from back veranda.
The story of W going to see daddy’s car really doesn’t make any sense unless the fm was aware her husband was on his way home, which at that point she didn’t know. Also why would W run in the opposite direction of where the ff would drive up and park his car. The carport was closer to where W was playing and L told detectives that they would usually “wait where they were”when ff arrived home as apposed to running towards his car to greet him.

 

[drsleuth]

I thought the only question WH asked L that day was whether or not the kids had any hiding spots where W might hide.

I don't believe that that was the one & only question WH asked. Common sense says she would have asked more questions. In her evidence at the inquest she stated that she asked L what she re-called when she took L aside. Sitting on the lounge she asked her they had any hiding places etc.

This I believe was in response to fm initially telling police W and L were playing hide and seek. Just Another example of how the fm story evolved from the day W disappeared to the days months years that followed. I remember in the first few days weeks it was reported W and L were playing together around the front of the house. First it was hide and seek, then it was a game of chasey. Then the story changed to W looking out for daddy’s car. Then it changed to W playing daddy tiger and would run around the corner and jump back out and roar at the fm (however fgm states that after W went around the side of the house she didn’t hear or see him again). The missing persons website has a detailed timeline from when W went missing and in the first few days it was reported that W was playing with his sister when he vanished but how could that be when later we are told L was drawing on the veranda while the adults sat on 2 chairs sipping their teas and talking and W was playing daddy tiger on his own only metres away from back veranda.

The responding police etc were well aware that William was playing daddy tiger etc.
Paul Berg ( Local Commander of SES Port Macquarie & Leading Snr Constable Tim Williams NSWPF. They gathered information from the Foster Parents to understand the behaviours William was displaying, which were he was involved in fantasy play. Could he have wandered off? He was waiting for the MFC to arrive- could he have wandered? What was his ability? Was there an animal he could have followed?- info from their testimony at the inquest.

The story of W going to see daddy’s car really doesn’t make any sense unless the fm was aware her husband was on his way home, which at that point she didn’t know. Also why would W run in the opposite direction of where the ff would drive up and park his car. The carport was closer to where W was playing and L told detectives that they would usually “wait where they were”when ff arrived home as apposed to running towards his car to greet him.

The MFC was expected back between 10 & 10:30 -at the latest.

 

[JLZ]

The missing persons website has a detailed timeline from when W went missing and in the first few days it was reported that W was playing with his sister when he vanished but how could that be when later we are told L was drawing on the veranda while the adults sat on 2 chairs sipping their teas and talking and W was playing daddy tiger on his own only metres away from back veranda.

(snipped) I don't see the inconsistency? FFC and FGM were sitting on chairs on the porch, L was drawing on the porch, William was jumping on and off the porch, onto the grassed area, while playing at being a tiger. One might say that William was playing with L but L was not particularly playing with William.

The coroner would now have access to Wendy's contemporaneous statement about her first meeting with the foster family. The media certainly didn't have that at the time, and some of their reports may have been based on what the neighbours were telling each other--Chinese whispers.

 

[JLZ]

Did "Lindsay" assume that is where William went, or did she actually see him run towards a vehicle? I guess we may never know, despite her best efforts to relay the thoughts from her 4-year old mind.

I doubt that the children would have had clear vision of a vehicle, just glimpses of it through the trees as it drove up the street. Perhaps to William's eyes it looked like daddy's car, and "Lindsay" was not articulate enough to say that William ran towards what he thought was daddy's car.

A 4-year-old is inarticulate yes, but how much articulacy does it take for a police officer (any of those who interviewed her in the first few days) to ask, "Did you see a car?"

The only place she could maybe have seen a car from the porch would have been towards the top of the street, near the Millers' driveway.

Perhaps William might have run towards any car at that point . . . adults are being boring, L only wants to draw . . . just to see what there was to see. And if the car was at Millers' driveway--which fits with what the Crabbs said they heard--that was so close.

 

[Reneemaree88]

I wonder what the possibility is of WT mistaking PS grey/silver 4x4 for FF new green/grey Land Rover 4x4. WT was out looking for FFs vehicle at the time he disappeared.Did he run towards it, thinking it was daddy tigger?

IIRC Paul Savage's car looked similar. I think he had a white or grey/silver 4WD. There was a photo of it somewhere back in the threads, but I can't find it now. I think maybe we saw it on Google streetview, back in the day. Or maybe it was a photo of the police search of his place.

From memory his vehicle had one of those covers that extend over the back (boot) section. Or we speculated about it. I remember discussion about whether the police looked under there, when William disappeared.
His wife's (maroon coloured) vehicle was parked in the carport that day, as was their campervan, so we presumed that PS' vehicle was parked in their driveway. (I just looked back over some past discussion.)

FP's car was a new green-grey coloured 2014 Land Rover Discovery. Link

imo

 

[JLZ]

I wonder what the possibility is of WT mistaking PS grey/silver 4x4 for FF new green/grey Land Rover 4x4. WT was out looking for FFs vehicle at the time he disappeared.Did he run towards it, thinking it was daddy tigger?

I don't think PS had time to do it. He was on his landline 9:59 to 10:07. Apparently he made another call at 10:41, and was home to answer the door to AMS at about 10:50. Up until about 10:30 or a little after, his wife was in the house with him, although reportedly not in the same room. Somewhere between 9:37 and 10:30 he had to capture William and place him somewhere he wouldn't be found right away. PS had some time after 10:50 to finish the disposal, but I don't think he had enough unbroken time for the first stage.

 

[SouthAussie]

I wonder what the possibility is of WT mistaking PS grey/silver 4x4 for FF new green/grey Land Rover 4x4. WT was out looking for FFs vehicle at the time he disappeared.Did he run towards it, thinking it was daddy tigger?

I was re-reading the part in I Catch Killers (the book) about Paul Savage. Jubes was concerned that PS had maybe hit William with his vehicle. Partly due to the gravel at the top of PS' driveway and the Crabbs hearing the sound of a vehicle turning on gravel, and he strongly felt that PS was lying about something but he couldn't put his finger on what he was lying about.

We only have PS' version of what he was doing that morning, because apparently Heather didn't mention PS in her police statement. I was wondering if PS left to put petrol in his vehicle for his trip to pick up his brother from hospital, or for some other related reason ... and an accident happened.

imo

 

[FromGermany1]

Little W didn't disappear, BECAUSE he waited for the MFC (if at all), and he didn't disappear, BECAUSE neighbor PS had a similar looking car, MOO. So, why did he disappear? Who was able to take the boy to a nearby meeting point and give him to the next person, who was waiting for his "goods" already?

 

[drsleuth]

I don't think PS had time to do it. He was on his landline 9:59 to 10:07. Apparently he made another call at 10:41, and was home to answer the door to AMS at about 10:50. Up until about 10:30 or a little after, his wife was in the house with him, although reportedly not in the same room. Somewhere between 9:37 and 10:30 he had to capture William and place him somewhere he wouldn't be found right away. PS had some time after 10:50 to finish the disposal, but I don't think he had enough unbroken time for the first stage.

My thoughts on PS are that he saw something. He knew the Miller's were away. Was he keeping an extra eye on their place, consciously or subconsciously?? Did he witness something?? By someone he knew or knew off??

The million $ question is why not say if he did?

Fear, maybe?

Was he standing on his front porch whilst on the phone on the call to his brother @ Casino hospital from ? He said he may have been outside on his front porch when he made the earlier call to Casino hospital @ 09:02 which only lasted 22 seconds. This was around when the bike riding may have been & where he said he sat out & had his tea & toast & said he heard children playing, but was adamant he never saw them.

He seems a pretty observant guy.

Some of his testimony ( there was alot of it!)

Thursday 11/9/2014 was home all day. Went on usual walk in the morning ( HS may or may not have went on walk that day - she usually did shorter walk ) PS couldn't remember. His usual walk time was 6 - 6:30 am, usually back home around 8am ( not when raining ) - about a 2hr walk, would stop & talk to lady in caravan ( Lyn ) for about 30mins.

11am heard a car engine that wasn't familiar to him. Heard a roar & sounded like it was revving. Looked out front door & saw a dull red Nissan Patrol Wagon going up into the bush as the top of Benaroon Drive ( the fire trail ). Only saw back of it, it did not come back out.

Wednesday 10/11/2014, coming back from morning walk saw 2 cars parked close (40cm gap) together on Benaroon Drive. Couldn't remember if HS went on a walk this day. She was having trouble walking.

One in front of AMS fence & one in front of # 35 described them as older cars, 60's - 70's, no one in them. One was white like older model Toyota Camry - hatchback & the other he thought was blue.

This was not mentioned in PS's statement dated 25/9/2014. Never saw them before & never saw them again.

Said he told HS about the cars at the time.

PS was asked some questions by his layer Mr McGory in x examination.

McGory : Mr Craddock has asked you about some cars you saw 2 days before WT went missing, is it was possible you might have told the FFC about those cars ?

PS : "No, I can't remember for sure"

Mr McGory : You mentioned you told HS, could she have told someone?

PS : "No, only if at bingo. Only time she could have done it"

Mr McGory : You did tell someone about those cars?

PS : Yes

 

[JLZ]

Mr McGory : You mentioned you told HS, could she have told someone?

PS : "No, only if at bingo. Only time she could have done it"

Peculiar answer. Heather didn't make phone calls? And didn't she have most of that Friday with their guests while he was out searching?

 

[Awakening]

I find PS so confusing. He comes across as a lonely bumbling man. I can’t tell if this is genuine or if it’s partly put on or exaggerated so that he can be involved in the case and get attention from police.

 

[Chrissy74]

The tennis club camera's corrected time for Peter leaving Kendall (going back towards Kew) is 10:53. I think you're saying it's 4 minutes between Cobb & Co and Comboyne St; that would mean he left Cobb & Co at 10:49, by which time MFC would have been back at FGM's for nearly 15 minutes. Even if it's 7 minutes between Cobb & Co and Comboyne St, Peter would have left Cobb & Co at 10:46, and MFC is already at FGM's before Peter even gets back in his truck. Peter would not have seen Heather on Batar Creek Road because they were travelling in the same direction, and also because the times don't match.

The thing with MFC's times, he does have receipts for being at Lakewood near Laurieton at 10:19 and at Kendall at 10:30. And he's back at FGM's by the time police arrive at about 11:06. You could say maybe he arrived later than 10:33-ish, but if you say he arrived earlier that would mean two trips.

Thanks JLZ. So we have receipts for the pharmacy and I believe he paid cash for the newspaper but what about the phone calls he made that morning. How thoroughly were those calls investigated? It’s been said that ff was on a phone call to a client from 9:17 that lasted 37min. He also had a missed at 9:45am and that missed call showed in the call log on his phone. Correct me if I’m wrong but when a person is on a call and receives a call at the same time, the missed call doesn’t appear in the call log at all. It appears in messages if theres a voicemail to retrieve but not in the call log. I remember something similar happened with BS when he returned fm call at 9:10 but couldn’t get through. Phone records apparently didn’t show this call