Australia Australia - William Tyrrell Disappeared While Playing in Yard - Kendall (NSW) #79

[drsleuth]

“it was deathly quiet” says grandma

Unfortunately, I don't put much weight on what the FGM has said IMO

The context of that statement (according to the DM) is that she was not speaking of the time period when the Crabbs heard the vehicle. Nor when she was sitting on the back deck.

I don't think a person can presume that they weren't chatting on the back deck, or that they were aware of the vehicle sound that the Crabbs heard from a different place and position.

Did Paul Savage hear the vehicle? Did Heather Savage hear the vehicle? Did anyone else hear the vehicle? We just don't know who heard what and when (other than the Crabbs hearing the vehicle, and PS & JW hearing the children).


'When I got down to the road I could see Anne Maree (Sharpley) who lives there.
'It was absolutely deathly quiet. Still. Nothing. I was down on the road talking with Anne Maree and then (the foster mother) came up very distraught and said "I've got to call the police".

Inside house where William Tyrrell spent his final hours

Never before seen images of the inside of the house house where William Tyrrell spent his last hours and and the bedroom he slept in before vanishing without a trace have emerged.

www.dailymail.co.uk

Seems vehicles were coming & going that morning & no one saw or heard anything , other than the Crabb's that we know off.

I don't put much weight on what has been said to have been said by the FGM, as it doesn't seem to fit with other things that we know ( Ie AMS never said she saw the FGM. The FGM said MFC left before am 8am etc which isn't the evidence we heard at the inquest )

And she was never called as a witness ( that we know off ).

All IMO

 

[Chrissy74]

Unfortunately, I don't put much weight on what the FGM has said IMO

Seems vehicles were coming & going that morning & no one saw or heard anything , other than the Crabb's that we know off.

I don't put much weight on what has been said to have been said by the FGM, as it doesn't seem to fit with other things that we know ( Ie AMS never said she saw the FGM. The FGM said MFC left before am 8am etc which isn't the evidence we heard at the inquest )

And she was never called as a witness ( that we know off ).

All IMO

Fgm is confused about what time Ff left because she didn’t physically see him leave. She knew he had to go to the pharmacy, she was later told by Ff that he had an online conference and was again informed after breakfast by fm that ff would be held up for some time due to his online meeting. Just because Ff wasn’t there having breakfast with them doesn’t mean he wasn’t there at all as he may have been in the bedroom or in his car preparing for his meeting without fgm knowledge. Ff then leaves the house around 9am, around the same time fm calls BS and takes kids outside to ride their bikes. Is it possible that the car L points to and says “who’s that car mummy”, is in fact the ff car? Fm describes the colour of the car as being teal, the same colour as the ff car. What are the odds?

AMS may not remember speaking to fgm but ff in his walkthrough says that while searching for W he could see fgm talking to her neighbour who she knew, pointing in the direction of and referring to AMS.

Also there are other ways for witnesses to give evidence in an inquiry other than attending court. Video links, statements etc..

Also if the car the Crabbs heard was in fact the fgm car (leaving fgm carport and driving up the dirt bike track), then it makes sense that no one else in the street saw or heard it, other than Mr and Mrs Crabb. PS was on the phone at that time to his brother.

 

[SouthAussie]

Also if the car the Crabbs heard was in fact the fgm car (leaving fgm carport and driving up the dirt bike track), then it makes sense that no one else in the street saw or heard it, other than Mr and Mrs Crabb. PS was on the phone at that time to his brother.

If you are speaking of the dirt fire trail at the end of Benaroon Drive, multiple people have said that a car could not drive on that trail.
And IIRC someone posted a photo of the Benaroon Drive start of that fire trail (way back in the threads somewhere) and there was a thick chain across the trail stopping traffic from driving through there. Not sure if that chain was there when William disappeared and removed due to the searches, as I can't remember where the photo came from.


Chapter 2, Missing William Tyrrell, Caroline Overington
Their [Crabb’s] house is, however, the last one on Benaroon Drive before the bitumen stops and the road suddenly turns into a gravel fire trail leading into the state forest, and up to the old Kendall cemetery. You need a four-wheel drive to get up there. It’s not possible in a sedan, and it seems likely that the driver had just realised that and was using the Millers’ driveway to do a three-point turn to get out of the street again.

thread 27, post 1065 - by former member iailwa
"You can get out of Benaroon drive & into the bush with a 4wd (only - a car just wouldn't cut it). it's very bumpy, and some of the humps were huge enough for a standard car to just balance on, with no tyres touching the road, it would be impossible. Can understand a 4WD might loose a mudguard or something, especially if they are hurrying. saw a hub cap right there.

drsleuth - during the inquest
I agree Stormbird , I also had the chance do do quite a bit of driving around when we had lengthy court breaks
The fire trail off the top of Benaroon drive is only 4WD ( we also heard in Craddock's opening that a cop car got stuck trying to go up it )

 

[drsleuth]

Fgm is confused about what time Ff left because she didn’t physically see him leave. She knew he had to go to the pharmacy, she was later told by Ff that he had an online conference and was again informed after breakfast by fm that ff would be held up for some time due to his online meeting. Just because Ff wasn’t there having breakfast with them doesn’t mean he wasn’t there at all as he may have been in the bedroom or in his car preparing for his meeting without fgm knowledge. Ff then leaves the house around 9am, around the same time fm calls BS and takes kids outside to ride their bikes. Is it possible that the car L points to and says “who’s that car mummy”, is in fact the ff car? Fm describes the colour of the car as being teal, the same colour as the ff car. What are the odds?

AMS may not remember speaking to fgm but ff in his walkthrough says that while searching for W he could see fgm talking to her neighbour who she knew, pointing in the direction of and referring to AMS.

Also there are other ways for witnesses to give evidence in an inquiry other than attending court. Video links, statements etc..

Also if the car the Crabbs heard was in fact the fgm car (leaving fgm carport and driving up the dirt bike track), then it makes sense that no one else in the street saw or heard it, other than Mr and Mrs Crabb. PS was on the phone at that time to his brother.

What are the odds?, next to nil I'd say.
Surely the FFC would recognise her own car, not to mention that the MFC had already left & was verified as being no where near Benaroon drive.
Also next to no chance that the FFC took FGM's car bush bashing up the fire trail, certainly would not have got very far if she tried.

IMO

If you are speaking of the dirt fire trail at the end of Benaroon Drive, multiple people have said that a car could not drive on that trail.
And IIRC someone posted a photo of the Benaroon Drive start of that fire trail (way back in the threads somewhere) and there was a thick chain across the trail stopping traffic from driving through there. Not sure if that chain was there when William disappeared and removed due to the searches, as I can't remember where the photo came from.


Chapter 2, Missing William Tyrrell, Caroline Overington
Their [Crabb’s] house is, however, the last one on Benaroon Drive before the bitumen stops and the road suddenly turns into a gravel fire trail leading into the state forest, and up to the old Kendall cemetery. You need a four-wheel drive to get up there. It’s not possible in a sedan, and it seems likely that the driver had just realised that and was using the Millers’ driveway to do a three-point turn to get out of the street again.

thread 27, post 1065 - by former member iailwa
"You can get out of Benaroon drive & into the bush with a 4wd (only - a car just wouldn't cut it). it's very bumpy, and some of the humps were huge enough for a standard car to just balance on, with no tyres touching the road, it would be impossible. Can understand a 4WD might loose a mudguard or something, especially if they are hurrying. saw a hub cap right there.

drsleuth - during the inquest
I agree Stormbird , I also had the chance do do quite a bit of driving around when we had lengthy court breaks
The fire trail off the top of Benaroon drive is only 4WD ( we also heard in Craddock's opening that a cop car got stuck trying to go up it )

Very true SA & I did post a photo way back of the track.

 

[Chrissy74]

What are the odds?, next to nil I'd say.
Surely the FFC would recognise her own car, not to mention that the MFC had already left & was verified as being no where near Benaroon drive.
Also next to no chance that the FFC took FGM's car bush bashing up the fire trail, certainly would not have got very far if she tried.

IMO


Very true SA & I did post a photo way back of the track.

Can you please tell me DrSleuth from your notes at the inquest, what time did ff leave the house or what time was his car seen on cctv? From my notes Ff leaves Benaroon drive ( evidence from inquest) 8:55-9am. fm recalls seeing a vehicle drive past the house as W and his sister were riding their bikes on the driveway about 9am and performed a U-turn. So far it seems to fit the timeline. Ff conference call started at 9:17 and it only takes 10min to get from A to B.
But in Ws case real time has been adjusted and amended so many time.

 

[Chrissy74]

Can you please tell me DrSleuth from your notes at the inquest, what time did ff leave the house or what time was his car seen on cctv? From my notes Ff leaves Benaroon drive ( evidence from inquest) 8:55-9am. fm recalls seeing a vehicle drive past the house as W and his sister were riding their bikes on the driveway about 9am and performed a U-turn. So far it seems to fit the timeline. Ff conference call started at 9:17 and it only takes 10min to get from A to B.
But in Ws case real time has been adjusted and amended so many time.

The foster couple looking after William had planned to drive up on September 12, a Friday, in their new green-grey coloured 2014 Land Rover Discovery.
News.com.auwww.news.com.auWilliam Tyrrell: Suspicion lifts from missing boy's birth family | news ...

There was also another vehicle described as a dark green [or] greyish coloured sedan. This vehicle drove past 48 Benaroon Drive as William was riding his bike on the driveway around 9am on the morning he disappeared," he said.
The Guardianhttps://www.theguardian.comWilliam Tyrrell inquest: foster mother recalls seeing two cars the morning he disappeared

The woman said she could still picture a man she stared at that morning driving third, green-teal-looking car which then reversed in a driveway and drove off.
the morning he disappeared," he said.

The Guardianhttps://www.theguardian.comWilliam Tyrrell inquest: foster mother recalls seeing two cars the morning he disappeared

What are the odds that the car fm sees do a U-turn and drive off is the same colour of ff brand new car. Or is this just “another coincidence”?

 

[SouthAussie]

Apparently, the FM had a strong reaction when she identified the old green or teal looking car. It didn't resemble their brand new Land Rover at all, I don't think.


The woman also wept when she recalled seeing a third vehicle that morning - a green or teal-looking car which reversed in a neighbouring driveway and drove off.

She said the driver was "a big man" in his late 50s who was Caucasian, had "sandy, reddy-coloured hair", a "thick neck" and looked "weathered".

They exchanged a fleeting "Why are you watching me? I'm watching you" glance, she said.

The foster mother said she was still working with police to reconstruct the man's appearance with software but had a "pretty intense reaction" when she identified the "old" green car.

****************

The inquest conducted by NSW Deputy State Coroner, Harriet Grahame, heard on Monday the foster mother had seen a “thick-necked” man in an old green-coloured car with spoke style wheels drive up the street on the same morning.

WS Link

@they'll get you suggested it may have looked similar to this, from the description.



WS Link

 

[FromGermany1]

The "well-dressed" man in a Kendall shop, who asked for the Benaroon address, can't be the same man, who was a "caucasian, thick necked and weathered" man in the old car?? - I would like to know!

 

[SouthAussie]

The "well-dressed" man in a Kendall shop, who asked for the Benaroon address, can't be the same man, who was a "caucasian, thick necked and weathered" man in the old car?? - I would like to know!

At the inquest, I think they might have been exploring FA's links to an old green car. Maybe because he fits the description of weathered, thick necked, (and had no provable alibi, was the subject of a deathbed confession, etc etc.)


You know he didn't have a license? FA said " Can't take away what you haven't got"
Did Danny have Camry's? Witness " Yeah maroon & green "
FA drive these? Witness "Didn't see"
Did he tell you he had driven them? Witness "Yes"
WS Link

DP said had 10 Camry's - he said most were for spare parts.
WS Link

We always wondered what car FM was shown when she had her extreme reaction to the showing. Was it CCTV from the tennis club, a photo array, a pic of DP's green camry, what was it?

 

[FromGermany1]

NO ALIBI: Shock twist in investigation into missing toddler William Tyrrell

A convicted pedophile cannot find anyone to vouch for his whereabouts on the day of William Tyrrell’s disappearance, a bombshell 7NEWS investigation has revealed.

7news.com.au

I don't know, whether FA could have had "sandy, reddish-coloured" hair at that time and if he was wearing one of his caps while driving or didn't.
The glaring, which the thick-necked and weathered man in the old car showed, might fit with FA very well, I imagine.

 

[Chrissy74]

Apparently, the FM had a strong reaction when she identified the old green or teal looking car. It didn't resemble their brand new Land Rover at all, I don't think.


The woman also wept when she recalled seeing a third vehicle that morning - a green or teal-looking car which reversed in a neighbouring driveway and drove off.

She said the driver was "a big man" in his late 50s who was Caucasian, had "sandy, reddy-coloured hair", a "thick neck" and looked "weathered".

They exchanged a fleeting "Why are you watching me? I'm watching you" glance, she said.

The foster mother said she was still working with police to reconstruct the man's appearance with software but had a "pretty intense reaction" when she identified the "old" green car.

****************

The inquest conducted by NSW Deputy State Coroner, Harriet Grahame, heard on Monday the foster mother had seen a “thick-necked” man in an old green-coloured car with spoke style wheels drive up the street on the same morning.

She said the driver was "a big man" in his late 50s who was Caucasian, had "sandy, reddy-coloured hair", a "thick neck" and looked "weathered".
These details were
SthAussie there was no description of the driver in fm statement that she gave to police when she remembered seeing the cars. These details were added at a much later date and possibly for the first time at the inquest in 2019. In her statement she says she saw the car for only 10 seconds from the first to the last time she sees it. She recalls the car being 10-15 meters away from where she was standing and that she couldn’t see any occupants of the car.


They exchanged a fleeting "Why are you watching me? I'm watching you" glance, she said.

The foster mother said she was still working with police to reconstruct the man's appearance with software but had a "pretty intense reaction" when she identified the "old" green car.

Fast forward to 2019
At the inquest in 2019 during questioning by Mr Craddock fm gives a description of the man driving the green/grey sedan and she goes on to say “I can see him as I’m talking to you” she tells Mr Craddock. Fm tells the court that she was still working with police to reconstruct the man’s appearance.
In other words fm has been working with police for “5yrs” to reconstruct the image she tells Craddock she has clear in her mind .
5yrs to reconstruct an image she can see clearly in her mind but yet she has an intense reaction to a car she’s shown a picture of some yrs later

****************

The inquest conducted by NSW Deputy State Coroner, Harriet Grahame, heard on Monday the foster mother had seen a “thick-necked” man in an old green-coloured car with spoke style wheels drive up the street on the same morning

It’s fascinating when you go back to the beginning to see just how many changes were made to fm initial statement over the years. Each version more detailed than the last.
There’s fact and then there’s fiction. Evidence of both are in fm statements and that’s what brought her undone

 

[JLZ]

She said the driver was "a big man" in his late 50s who was Caucasian, had "sandy, reddy-coloured hair", a "thick neck" and looked "weathered".
These details were
SthAussie there was no description of the driver in fm statement that she gave to police when she remembered seeing the cars. These details were added at a much later date and possibly for the first time at the inquest in 2019. In her statement she says she saw the car for only 10 seconds from the first to the last time she sees it. She recalls the car being 10-15 meters away from where she was standing and that she couldn’t see any occupants of the car.


They exchanged a fleeting "Why are you watching me? I'm watching you" glance, she said.

The foster mother said she was still working with police to reconstruct the man's appearance with software but had a "pretty intense reaction" when she identified the "old" green car.

Fast forward to 2019
At the inquest in 2019 during questioning by Mr Craddock fm gives a description of the man driving the green/grey sedan and she goes on to say “I can see him as I’m talking to you” she tells Mr Craddock. Fm tells the court that she was still working with police to reconstruct the man’s appearance.
In other words fm has been working with police for “5yrs” to reconstruct the image she tells Craddock she has clear in her mind .
5yrs to reconstruct an image she can see clearly in her mind but yet she has an intense reaction to a car she’s shown a picture of some yrs later

****************

The inquest conducted by NSW Deputy State Coroner, Harriet Grahame, heard on Monday the foster mother had seen a “thick-necked” man in an old green-coloured car with spoke style wheels drive up the street on the same morning

It’s fascinating when you go back to the beginning to see just how many changes were made to fm initial statement over the years. Each version more detailed than the last.
There’s fact and then there’s fiction. Evidence of both are in fm statements and that’s what brought her undone

We can't tell when details were added. Just because something hasn't been written up in a statement at a given time doesn't mean that FFC hasn't talked to police about it.

 

[Karin1974]

Maybe the way to balance things out is by taking the focus off the FM for more than a minute and try looking at the other people who have circumstantial evidence against them, and other occurrences that are not related to her. Then maybe it can be seen that there are too many other possibilities.

I feel that when only one person is looked at, over and over (for more than 4 years, in the case of the NSWPOL investigation), other things can be missed.

All of this intricate examination by the police (or anyone else) hasn't advanced the case.

IMO - THIS POST right here should be read a couple of times. For those that believe FM is guilty - Think about this for one second, do you really, truly believe FM is this clever? Really? To have harmed WT & kept it COMPLETELY & utterly hidden from everyone all this time? There isn’t a single shred of hard evidence against her, it doesn’t make any actual sense to me that she did this. She’s seriously unlikable & shouldn’t be allowed to foster children but for me personally, there just wasn’t enough time to completely cover this up for this long. I only wish they’d paid as much attention on Geoff & Frank as they did on FM, PS, etc. MOO

 

[suspicious]

IMO - THIS POST right here should be read a couple of times. For those that believe FM is guilty - Think about this for one second, do you really, truly believe FM is this clever? Really? To have harmed WT & kept it COMPLETELY & utterly hidden from everyone all this time? There isn’t a single shred of hard evidence against her, it doesn’t make any actual sense to me that she did this. She’s seriously unlikable & shouldn’t be allowed to foster children but for me personally, there just wasn’t enough time to completely cover this up for this long. I only wish they’d paid as much attention on Geoff & Frank as they did on FM, PS, etc. MOO

I really dont know. I dont think if she is responsible it was intentional. I do believe she is narcissistic though. So i don’t believe anything she says.

I think the problem (among many) is that she should never have been cleared from the beginning, what hard evidence rules her out?

I wouldnt put my house on it that shes guilty, but generally the last person to see the person alive is responsible, so i do think she is the front runner.

 

[SouthAussie]

I really dont know. I dont think if she is responsible it was intentional. I do believe she is narcissistic though. So i don’t believe anything she says.

I think the problem (among many) is that she should never have been cleared from the beginning, what hard evidence rules her out?

I wouldnt put my house on it that shes guilty, but generally the last person to see the person alive is responsible, so i do think she is the front runner.

I think that is backwards. Police needed hard evidence to rule her in, and there is none. Not a skerrick of it. They looked. They took the PCs, phones and camera. They checked the vehicles. They had the photos forensically checked. They followed their route to Kendall and checked all CCTV. They made sure the FD was where he said he was. They bugged their vehicle. They put cameras down drains. They did all they could do to ensure no-one in that family was involved.

If anyone knew who the actual last person was who saw William, other then his young sister, then they might know who took William.

 

[marv hucker]

I simply can’t believe the police have put even 1/100th of effort into looking at Abbott as they have the FM.

She’s got an arguably shaky alibi and no motive.
He’s got form, no alibi, and has made incriminating statements to everyone he met.

Bizarre behaviour from NSWPOL.

 

[SouthAussie]

I simply can’t believe the police have put even 1/100th of effort into looking at Abbott as they have the FM.

She’s got an arguably shaky alibi and no motive.
He’s got form, no alibi, and has made incriminating statements to everyone he met.

Bizarre behaviour from NSWPOL.

I think the inquest has spent considerable time looking at FA. I don't think the Coroner takes the evidence against him lightly. Remember when she (presumably) ordered the search of his residence location DURING the inquest?

I agree that NSWPOL have not spent nearly enough time on him. In one of Jubes' books he said that they couldn't place FA at Benaroon Drive. But it seems that they haven't been able to place him NOT at Benaroon Drive either.

I think it is very suss that FA's phone didn't move for 3 days when William disappeared. A person with as much form as him would know that the police look at your phone movements. Where was he during those 3 days?

 

[Chrissy74]

IMO - THIS POST right here should be read a couple of times. For those that believe FM is guilty - Think about this for one second, do you really, truly believe FM is this clever? Really? To have harmed WT & kept it COMPLETELY & utterly hidden from everyone all this time? There isn’t a single shred of hard evidence against her, it doesn’t make any actual sense to me that she did this. She’s seriously unlikable & shouldn’t be allowed to foster children but for me personally, there just wasn’t enough time to completely cover this up for this long. I only wish they’d paid as much attention on Geoff & Frank as they did on FM, PS, etc. MOO

To answer your question Karin yes I do believe fm is 100% responsible for Ws disappearance. I’ve said this before, there is plenty of evidence just not enough admissible evidence to press charges unfortunately. Even if Ws body was found it would still be a huge challenge for police to prove she was responsible. Is she the type of person who’s capable of hurting a child? Yes and she plead guilty to assault charges on a child. Did she hurt W that morning? To say yes would be pure speculation.? As for your question on the fm being clever enough to pull this off, to that I say yes however mistakes made by police and FACS controlling the media certainly put her at an advantage. Her best friend talks to DB about how smart fm is. She’s a successful woman in her own right and that wouldn’t be the case if she wasn’t savvy and smart. I also don’t believe that fm is the only person who knows what happened to W. Both ff and fgm would have known but as if her own mother and husband would throw her under the bus. There’s a very long list of contradictions, lies and story telling that can’t simply be ignored. Fm painted a picture on the very first day and over days weeks months and years that picture was chopped and changed multiple times to suit the circumstances at the time.

JMO

 

[SouthAussie]

The inquest didn't hear testimony from a memory expert for no reason.

 

[Chrissy74]

I think the inquest has spent considerable time looking at FA. I don't think the Coroner takes the evidence against him lightly. Remember when she (presumably) ordered the search of his residence location DURING the inquest?

I agree that NSWPOL have not spent nearly enough time on him. In one of Jubes' books he said that they couldn't place FA at Benaroon Drive. But it seems that they haven't been able to place him NOT at Benaroon Drive either.

I think it is very suss that FA's phone didn't move for 3 days when William disappeared. A person with as much form as him would know that the police look at your phone movements. Where was he during those 3 days?

Wasn’t GJ certain PS was somehow involved in Ws disappearance. Even til today I think that’s his belief. He lost his job and his career over his determination to prove PS was responsible. I’m confused SthAussie do you think it’s PS or FA or GO or some creepy random thief? Or possibly any one of the above but definitely not fm