AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #2

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  • #821
Exactly. What is worse than having a kid be a murderer and sent off to jail or juvie? Not much.

I know the DA sure would rather it be some 250 pound man with a rap sheet long as his arm.

He is caught with the worst case he can possibly have. He has two very heinous premeditated murders but the defendant is a young juvenile. What a nightmare, trying to seek any semblance of justice for the two victims while having to deal with the fact the defendant is this age.

I don't envy this poor man at all.

imoo
 
  • #822
Well,Untill the gag oder is off and all this information is back and made public.We do not know anything really now.It is all speculation.Yes I really am repeating myself.
 
  • #823
Well we do know enough to form opinions on both sides. When he plea bargains, we may never learn any more.
 
  • #824
A Complicated Case

The case raises legal issues beyond whether the interrogation was legal. One of the biggest questions is whether an 8-year-old is legally competent to stand trial.

A child that young probably doesn't know enough about the justice system, says John Hollebeek, a psychologist in Tempe who often evaluates children for juvenile court. "He may have some bare-bones understanding of the court process," Hollebeek says, but "he might not understand the long-term decisions that he's making."

If the boy is found not competent now, the criminal charges could be dismissed entirely or dismissed and then brought back when he turns 15.

There are few legal precedents. In 1996, a 6-year-old in Richmond, Calif., was accused of attempted murder for trying to kill a neighbor's baby. In that case, the charges eventually were dropped, and the boy was placed in a residential treatment program.

In St. Johns, attorney Wood says it's challenging talking to his young client about the case. "His feet don't touch the floor. He still believes in Santa Claus," Wood says. "It's very difficult to try and explain some extremely complicated and adult circumstances to a young man."

Plea Deal Conditions Kept Quiet

Last weekend, prosecutors offered a plea deal for the boy. Its conditions haven't been made public. Wood says he's waiting for the state to turn over forensic evidence — such as gun powder residue, ballistics results, fingerprints, DNA tests — and for completion of the boy's competency evaluation. Then he says he'll sit down with the boy and explain the situation to him as best he can.

This was on NPR 4 Dec
 
  • #825
Well we do know enough to form opinions on both sides. When he plea bargains, we may never learn any more.

Thats true. In fact this is about like it goes with each case, except we have been fortunate to have access to the Apache Court website already.

imoo
 
  • #826
Thankyou for the article.Well,I guess he is waiting for the forensic evidence to come back.It's still not back?
 
  • #827
Well,I must try and get some sleep now.Good night my friends.Untill tommorrow.

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Rainbow Native Blessing

May the Warm Winds of Heaven
Blow softly upon your house.
May the Great Spirit
Bless all who enter there.
May your Mocassins
Make happy tracks
in many snows,
and may the Rainbow
Always touch your shoulder.

[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]
[/FONT]
 
  • #828
Is there a link that has a transcript of the interrogation video? It would be easier to read than suffer through the video, I think. And faster to recheck for questions one might have.
Besides you wouldn't have see all those hand gestures one of the lady makes (what's that about?)
 
  • #829
I provided a link earlier when someone asked about the victim's obits. I found that timothy romans was a resident of the Apache tribal San Pedro reservation. His funeral was at the local church. They did not know if he was a Native American but stated that usually people who lived on the reservation were. I saw the link which Ordianary provided and it said TR was caught for being on drugs and a suspected drug dealer. The link is now obsolete.If he was dealing drugs from the reservation wouldn't he be protected from US law enforcement. These are two facts. 1) He lived on an Apache reservation. He was caught for possession of drugs and a suspected drug dealer according to the news article Ordinary provided as a link. There is one question. If Tim Romans was dealing drugs on the reservation would he be exempt from CJ system or would he be tried under Indian law?
 
  • #830
Ummmm - this is a discussion board, right? What difference does it make whether you are left of the fence, right of the fence or sitting on top of it? There are many posts, as there should be, that question what happened and why and whether or not the child is guilty.

So, I question whether the child did this and if he did, if he acted alone. Why - because of the very, very tight timeline, the fact that the gun was a single shot and had to be reloaded everytime, because the "confession" was coercered by lies from the detectives, at this point in time the forensics have not come back and finally, because the shooting pattern does not make sense to me.

Where was the kid hiding when he shot TR?

Salem
 
  • #831
Is there a link that has a transcript of the interrogation video? It would be easier to read than suffer through the video, I think. And faster to recheck for questions one might have.
Besides you wouldn't have see all those hand gestures one of the lady makes (what's that about?)

The hand gestures are from one officer to the other on how to "lead" the conversation based on what the person being interrogated is answering to the questions. LE couldn't have been more obvious about their hand signs..
 
  • #832
I think many of us covered why we thought he was guilty in thread #1, there are people on this board that say he is innocent too (and most likely on thread #1 as well).

I know the boy's lawyer is waiting for the mental eval also.
 
  • #833
I think if this child did not commit these crimes, it is going to be a very long time before he recovers from the trauma he has gone through being accused on top of his father being murdered in front of him.

He is going to need extensive counseling either way. Do I consider him now, "damaged goods" tho?! No. No more than I would consider any child at 8 years old who felt they were at their wit's end and had no one to turn to so they committed an act they had no real knowledge of the consequence for. I consider this a tragedy.

Yes. I would take him home with me in an instant! I would also give him all the support, love, and counseling he needs to heal to become a productive, well-adjusted adult someday.

I would take him in as well; given i had the situation provided. Whether or not the boy killed; whether or not he is a sociopath; for him to be given up on.. what does that say about one's outlook on humanity if we cannot have hope for a child?
Even if the boy is a sociopath; if no one searches for a cure or gives up, then one will never be found. They have evidence in MRI's of the area of the brain that controls impulses (it is very small and not developed in some cases of sociopaths).
We find ways to treat or control cancer, diabetes and other such physical ailments. Why not can the same be said for sociopathy? It is based on physical circumstances and psychiatrists or psychologists may be doctors; yet if they aren't working hand in hand with expert physicians (lack of word too late at night), no progress will be made.

Sorry for the rant.. i just don't think this child should be written off so quickly. Either way the cookie crumbles.
It's bedtime..
 
  • #834
I would take him in as well; given i had the situation provided. Whether or not the boy killed; whether or not he is a sociopath; for him to be given up on.. what does that say about one's outlook on humanity if we cannot have hope for a child?
Even if the boy is a sociopath; if no one searches for a cure or gives up, then one will never be found. They have evidence in MRI's of the area of the brain that controls impulses (it is very small and not developed in some cases of sociopaths).
We find ways to treat or control cancer, diabetes and other such physical ailments. Why not can the same be said for sociopathy? It is based on physical circumstances and psychiatrists or psychologists may be doctors; yet if they aren't working hand in hand with expert physicians (lack of word too late at night), no progress will be made.

Sorry for the rant.. i just don't think this child should be written off so quickly. Either way the cookie crumbles.
It's bedtime..

I'm going to quote myself here MeoW333 because I think it may interest you:

[ Here is a snip I took from a very interesting nine page article I read recently in the New Yorker about the study of "psychopaths", (not to be confused with "psychos", or "psychotics"), also known as sociopaths or those with antisocial personality disorder, (conduct disorder in kids). This doctor conducted a study of prisoners brains to detect psychopathy. Long study. Very interesting article with examples of some really eerie, frightening people. This snip talks about psychopathy in kids, when it starts, how it can be detected and if it can be treated. The article seems to suggest there is hope for treatment if you catch them young enough:

"Although psychologists don’t call minors “psychopaths”—they are “youths with psychopathic traits”—there is considerable evidence that the condition manifests itself at ages earlier than eighteen; in a much cited 2005 paper, “Evidence for Substantial Genetic Risk for Psychopathy in Seven-Year-Olds,” published in the Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry, Essi Viding suggests that the condition can be detected in early childhood. Fledgling psychopaths are particularly interesting to researchers, because their brains are thought to be more malleable than those of adults. In a landmark 2006 study of a specialized talk-therapy treatment program, conducted at a juvenile detention center in Wisconsin, involving a hundred and forty-one young offenders who scored high on the youth version of the checklist, Michael Caldwell, a psychologist at the treatment center and a lecturer at the University of Wisconsin at Madison, reported that the youths that were treated were much more likely to stay out of trouble, once they were paroled, than the ones in the control group. “In other words,” Kiehl told me, “psychopathy is treatable after all, if you can catch it young enough.” Of course, as he pointed out in an e-mail, even with very violent young offenders we have to accept that “the only way to know if the treatment worked or not is to return the youths to the community once they have finished their sentence. . . . Perhaps you put them in a specialized community/monitoring program once they are released again.”
Here's the link:
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2...?currentPage=8
Of course, I suppose none of this will matter to those who think: "It does not matter if he's a kid. He's evil and should never see the light of day again." I understand that feeling. Such a kid is really freaky and scary. But, I think it's good that some are not ready to give up on children yet, if there is a chance to fix them. In any event, as many here have said, I don't know what happened in this case or what the cause of the murders was. I think a child suffering horrible abuse would feel nothing if they killed their abuser so if that's the case, the kid's reaction during interview may not indicate that he is a psychopath. I just don't know. I'll wait and see and withhold judgment until I know a bit more. No matter what, this is a terrible and bizarre tragedy.]
 
  • #835
I think if this child did not commit these crimes, it is going to be a very long time before he recovers from the trauma he has gone through being accused on top of his father being murdered in front of him.

He is going to need extensive counseling either way. Do I consider him now, "damaged goods" tho?! No. No more than I would consider any child at 8 years old who felt they were at their wit's end and had no one to turn to so they committed an act they had no real knowledge of the consequence for. I consider this a tragedy.

Yes. I would take him home with me in an instant! I would also give him all the support, love, and counseling he needs to heal to become a productive, well-adjusted adult someday.


Amen, I couldn't have said it better myself.
 
  • #836
gitana - thanks for the link. Also, I wanted to say I appreciated what you had to say in your post #809 a page or two back. I didn't quote it because of the length, but it was very nicely said.

Salem
 
  • #837
I think if this child did not commit these crimes, it is going to be a very long time before he recovers from the trauma he has gone through being accused on top of his father being murdered in front of him.

He is going to need extensive counseling either way. Do I consider him now, "damaged goods" tho?! No. No more than I would consider any child at 8 years old who felt they were at their wit's end and had no one to turn to so they committed an act they had no real knowledge of the consequence for. I consider this a tragedy.

Yes. I would take him home with me in an instant! I would also give him all the support, love, and counseling he needs to heal to become a productive, well-adjusted adult someday.


Will you feel the same way if as time goes by we find out that this boy wasn't abused and that he did murder the two guys? Not everyone can be fixed with a lot of love and nurturing. With some they are so broken that therapy doesn't even help. I don't know about this boy yet but it is true of some kids sad to say. If that were the case I would hope that you wouldn't want to take him into your home and put your family at risk.
 
  • #838
I saved and uploaded the full transcripts as I had some problems viewing them from the court website, maybe others did too.
I hope it's allowed.
Here...

(officer Neckel's testifying begins on page 11)
http://www.scribd.com/doc/8698254/8-Year-Old-1

http://www.scribd.com/doc/8698368/8-Year-Old-2

http://www.scribd.com/doc/8698391/8-Year-Old-3

http://www.scribd.com/doc/8698535/8-Year-Old-4


Thank you so much for doing that. I can't open the pdf things because I don't have enough memory. I don't know what I can get rid of to have more so I really appreciate being able to read these.
 
  • #839
Quote
I also think it odd that the crime scene was released so quickly that the defense attorney couldn't even get a look at it.

and she had it cleaned up so fast.


LE would have been the ones to release the crime scene. If that was my house I would have bio chemical cleaners come in and clean as soon as the crime scene was released. I would have someone go in and pack up everything and then I would sell it as soon as it is through probate. I could no way in heck live there. I couldn't even go in it again.
 
  • #840
I see the cuddling part the same way as if he didn't do it, yet i can also see it as if he did do it, after going through a lot of abuse. If he went through a lot of abuse and did actually commit the crime, then he would also need the assurance, imo. The assurance that the abuse would end, and also that his family would still love him; he is just a child.


If that was my grandson I would have talked to him about what happened. At that time he was considered a witness. I would have had to know what happened. I know that I could have talked to my grandkids at that age and they would have told me the truth or at least I think they would have. As the gramma I sure would have given it a good try anyway.

I believe this gramma is in a real tough place. Her son is dead and it is said that his death came at the hand of his son....her grandson. I don't even know how I would react. It would depend on why it happened I think. Of course if my grandson had been being abused you can bet I would have had my nose in my son's business. When a person says "they were to hard on him" it doesn't have to mean that they abused him. She may have felt they were to strict in other ways. Not letting him do things that she felt he was old enough to do, having to many chores, things like that. Maybe she wasn't that strict with her kids. I'm sure she has talked to LE by now about her feelings and thoughts. I wish they would lift that darn gag order!
 
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