AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #4

[Razzle]

<respectfully snipped>

That being said, afaics, this is an extremely tragic case, for both the victims and this child. While it is easy paint this little boy from our adult world view, and then castigate him. And even be rather gleeful with the idea of him being not only tried as an adult but severely punished in an adult way (an eye for an eye, no? Well, that would of course require the death penalty in this case. After all, he allegedly murdered not one, but two men).

And we wonder why our children kill...

Imo, the biggest tragedy that has yet to play out (and that may very well play out in a devastatingly violent way), is that our society, by and large, really does not give two shakes about this child—that is outside of the sensational aspect. In fact, I am of the contention that the whole, "we're gonna get him therapeutic help" is nothing more than lip service for a public that basically does not care what happens to him. That is, as long as "the kid" is put somewhere... You know, "out of sight and out of mind"? OBE's comment exemplifies this sentiment.



Sadly, I suspect this is the rule and not the exception when it comes to not only this case, but other cases that involve young children. And I admittedly find this to be the most troubling.

I agree with this so much.
Excellent post!!!!!!!!

 

[MeoW333]

I too have worked with children for 20 years. What you said is absolutely correct and I concur. A child like this one, IMO is very very rare indeed. He's NOTHING like all of the other children you've worked with.

In those twenty years, I've come across very few, three to be exact. Only ONE was was a murderer at the age of 7. That child also had no abuse of any kind in his history. He was every bit as remorseless, cunning, manipulative and cold as this child. Yet he was extremely intelligent and articulate and charming.

Be thankful they're so rare and you haven't met one.

I don't understand how you can come to those conclusions about the boy without knowing him personally. Every child is different.

 

[southcitymom]

......our society, by and large, really does not give two shakes about this child—......... I suspect this is the rule and not the exception when it comes to not only this case, but other cases that involve young children. And I admittedly find this to be the most troubling.

(respectfully snipped for content.)

Our society, by and large, doesn't two shakes about anyone of any age who commits a violent crime - this is the rule and not the exception for both children and adults. And it is troubling indeed.

But I do understand the sentiment that OBE expresses - as long as "these folks" are not putting us and our community in danger, we tend to not think about them except a passing thought that they are behind bars where they belong and we are safe.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

And another child in your circumstance may have reacted differently.

I came from an abusive home and I was very popular and out going. My Brother was withdrawn and shy.

You cannot make generalizations when it comes to how a child will respond to abuse. Even siblings from the same family.

Right we cant make generalizations.

Whether a child is shy and quiet or outgoing and boisterous doesn't mean that there is any abuse whatsoever going on, either.

imoo

 

[Razzle]

Right we cant make generalizations.

Whether a child is shy and quiet or outgoing and boisterous doesn't mean that there is any abuse whatsoever going on, either.

imoo

I think that brings us back to the original conclusion that there is a good chance this child suffered some sort of abuse or neglect if indeed he is guilty of this crime.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

I think that brings us back to the original conclusion that there is a good chance this child suffered some sort of abuse or neglect if indeed he is guilty of this crime.

How?

There is nothing supporting that he suffered from abuse or was neglected.

imoo

 

[christine2448]

My contention regarding this case is that I absolutely and completely disagree with the view point that this child premeditated and executed the murders in a cold and calculating way.

1st, as always, EXCELLENT post! I love reading your posts, as you know. FWIW.

2nd, that being said (your quote..I haven't read back everything or your research besides this post, not sure where you stand, and I am SO interested) do you think the child killed these 2 men?

 

[chiperoni]

Yes, it looks like the killer is going to walk free as a bird.

Surely his attorney will not plead if he is sure he is innocent.

IMO that would be a worst injustice to this boy than some have claimed the SJPD did to the boy. That admission of guilt will hang over his head the rest of his life. No longer are juvenile cases kept confidential. The attorney has to know if the boy pleads the media will have it out on the airwaves in 5 minutes and it will reverberate all across the nation.

If they don't have the evidence against him, I think his lawyer will refuse the plea..... for if he pleas that is an admission of guilt and many times in certain cases if they plead they have to get up and admit their acts to the Judge.

imoo

That's easier said than done. A lot of innocent people accept plea deals because it's a sure thing. There are so many extenuating circumstances. A lot of people must have known that TR had dealt meth and no one really said anything since we didn't find out about his arrest until now. Meth is a huge money maker in that area. Would the child have a jury trial? It's a small town. Too many things go awry so I understand fully.

 

[OrdinaryLife]

How?

There is nothing supporting that he suffered from abuse or was neglected.

imoo

What Razzle shares is truth. There may not be supporting evidence of abuse. Have we not been down this road before? There is no perfect path in showing abuse. I have had that, experienced it, and yet I can show "proof" that it happened? No. But, it did. Times may have changed in terms of enlightenment concerning covert abuse of all kinds. Yet, slowly do to the facts of self shame and self blame become knowledge to others until the abused feels safe enough to share it. Or, old enough to deal with it. That is a fact. However, just because it may not be in some legal document or in a police file of complaint does not mean it never existed. Just look around here at WS's and the tragic stories we read everyday. It is real.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

What Razzle shares is truth. There may not be supporting evidence of abuse. Have we not been down this road before? There is no perfect path in showing abuse. I have had that, experienced it, and yet I can show "proof" that it happened? No. But, it did. Times may have changed in terms of enlightenment concerning covert abuse of all kinds. Yet, slowly do to the facts of self shame and self blame become knowledge to others until the abused feels safe enough to share it. Or, old enough to deal with it. That is a fact. However, just because it may not be in some legal document or in a police file of complaint does not mean it never existed. Just look around here at WS's and the tragic stories we read everyday. It is real.

Life experiences are one thing but when it involves a criminal murder case alleging that he was abused is just a presumption without basis in this case imo. There is nothing that says he was being abused and neglected.

It is unfair to assume that abuse happened just for the sake of assuming imo. It sure doesn't mean it did exist either.

Yes, I read tragic cases and not all happen because of abuse.

imo

 

[Bobbisangel]

Why wouldn't it be? Wood/Brewer said way back then they were going to WAIT to see what the evidence uncovered. IMO the evidence is all in so they went to the DA and asked him if he was still willing to plea the case and he told them he was imo.

The DA was willing to deal this case even before he got most of the evidence back. I think he wants a full admission by the boy and for the boy to be made to have extensive therapy. I don't know what else he will want but it is his call what he is willing to plea too and I think they all want their lives back to normal and this case resolved and over.

imoo

I think a Theraputic Home for treatment sounds like a good idea. But for how long? A month or two which wouldn't do a bit of good. It needs to be long term at the least. Why not there for 2 or 3 years and then into detention until he is 18 yrs old?

 

[Bobbisangel]

My contention regarding this case is that I absolutely and completely disagree with the view point that this child premeditated and executed the murders in a cold and calculating way.

For one, this view point is simply impossible due to physiological limitations&#8212;the frontal cortex, which, among other things, regulate abstract thought and impulse control, is not even remotely fully developed. Furthermore, and dep upon his developmental trajectory he is either still in, or recently emerging from the ME stage. This stage, btw, in an adult, is considered to be "sociopathic." Yet it is not only expected, but quite normal in young children as they move along the developmental path towards socialization. And as much as some may not like the idea, socialization, in and of itself, is a process, not an innate way of being. And finally, he does not have enough experiential (social, emotional, or otherwise) development to fully appreciate the gravity of his actions.

That being said, afaics, this is an extremely tragic case, for both the victims and this child. While it is easy paint this little boy from our adult world view, and then castigate him. And even be rather gleeful with the idea of him being not only tried as an adult but severely punished in an adult way (an eye for an eye, no? Well, that would of course require the death penalty in this case. After all, he allegedly murdered not one, but two men).

And we wonder why our children kill...

Imo, the biggest tragedy that has yet to play out (and that may very well play out in a devastatingly violent way), is that our society, by and large, really does not give two shakes about this child&#8212;that is outside of the sensational aspect. In fact, I am of the contention that the whole, "we're gonna get him therapeutic help" is nothing more than lip service for a public that basically does not care what happens to him. That is, as long as "the kid" is put somewhere... You know, "out of sight and out of mind"? OBE's comment exemplifies this sentiment.



Sadly, I suspect this is the rule and not the exception when it comes to not only this case, but other cases that involve young children. And I admittedly find this to be the most troubling.

It sounds like you are speaking for every single person in the world with the exception yourself. That is pretty unfair. Yes, this child murdered two people and he shouldn't just get to go home with mom without any repercussions. This boy needs to be in a Theraputic Home for a long time so that there is the possibility that he can get better. I think it is pretty scary when a 8 yr old gets mad at his dad because he got in trouble for not bringing his homework or corrected papers home so dad could see them.....he is so angry with dad for his getting 5 swats that he decides to kill his dad along with another person that would have been a witness. Kids are killing their parents for no good reason nowdays. It's in the news nearly every day. I believe that this boy knew his dad would be dead forever and he seemed to know all about juvy so he knew that is where he would go. He knew enough to make the choice of killing or not. He doesn't seem to feel bad about it either.

I don't think anyone wanted this little boy to be guilty but obviously he is. Just because some of us thought from the beginning that he was guilty doesn't mean that we don't give a rip about him. It's a sad situation but there is something wrong with this boy and he needs help.

 

[Bobbisangel]

That's easier said than done. A lot of innocent people accept plea deals because it's a sure thing. There are so many extenuating circumstances. A lot of people must have known that TR had dealt meth and no one really said anything since we didn't find out about his arrest until now. Meth is a huge money maker in that area. Would the child have a jury trial? It's a small town. Too many things go awry so I understand fully.

It sounds like the evidence is speaking for itself. Tim's background has nothing to do with this. The boy didn't murder Tim because he knew something about his background. If the evidence all points to this boy then that means that he was behind the gun. I doubt his attorney would agree to a plea if the evidence didn't point to this boy. Why would he? That is the same as saying the boy is guilty. The attorney wouldn't be much of an attorney if he wanted someone who is innocent to say they are guilty by taking a plea.

 

[Razzle]

Life experiences are one thing but when it involves a criminal murder case alleging that he was abused is just a presumption without basis in this case imo. There is nothing that says he was being abused and neglected.

It is unfair to assume that abuse happened just for the sake of assuming imo. It sure doesn't mean it did exist either.

Yes, I read tragic cases and not all happen because of abuse.

imo

Well we do know that his father used slapping as a form of punishment/discipline.

We know that this boy was living with a meth dealer.

We know that the house this boy was living in was a complete pig sty.

We know that there were a variety of unsecured guns available to this child.

There is plenty right there that give me reason to suspect abuse/neglect. I am sure a child social worker would take issue with the things that I have listed.

IMOO

 

[Bobbisangel]

"by all accounts traumatized" ???? WHAT? The kid was cool, cold, calculating, arrogant and manipulative. I see ZERO evidence this kid was traumatized by anything.

He may have been a little surprised he wouldn't be out of detention in a few days as he had thought. But traumatized? No way!

imo

In the interview he didn't seem traumatized at all. He seemed relaxed and without any remorse. He discussed the death of his dad and Tim as if he was talking about anything but murder and death. For his age I would have thought he would have been crying and scared to death. I would have thought that he would have been crying for his dad saying that he wanted his daddy and wanted to go home. His behavior was really a surprise to me. He didn't act like a traumatized eight year old at all.

 

[Bobbisangel]

Well we do know that his father used slapping as a form of punishment/discipline.

We know that this boy was living with a meth dealer.

We know that the house this boy was living in was a complete pig sty.

We know that there were a variety of unsecured guns available to this child.

There is plenty right there that give me reason to suspect abuse/neglect. I am sure a child social worker would take issue with the things that I have listed.

IMOO

From what I saw of the kitchen it looked pretty clean and neat. In those pictures you can't tell if the whole house was a pig sty or if it was clean and just messy with clothes and stuff laying around. It might not even look like that all of the time. There are some days that I would hate for anyone to come in and take pictures of my house.

Didn't the boy say he got swats? Swats are different then slaps. Swats are usually on the rear right where a child is supposed to be spanked if you believe in spankings. Slaps can be on the face, head, or anywhere.

 

[Razzle]

From what I saw of the kitchen it looked pretty clean and neat. In those pictures you can't tell if the whole house was a pig sty or if it was clean and just messy with clothes and stuff laying around. It might not even look like that all of the time. There are some days that I would hate for anyone to come in and take pictures of my house.

Didn't the boy say he got swats? Swats are different then slaps. Swats are usually on the rear right where a child is supposed to be spanked if you believe in spankings. Slaps can be on the face, head, or anywhere.

Even if you ignore the mess in the house, there is still the statement from relatives that Vincent "slapped" CR

IMOO

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Well we do know that his father used slapping as a form of punishment/discipline.

We know that this boy was living with a meth dealer.

We know that the house this boy was living in was a complete pig sty.

We know that there were a variety of unsecured guns available to this child.

There is plenty right there that give me reason to suspect abuse/neglect. I am sure a child social worker would take issue with the things that I have listed.

IMOO

There is no evidence that the Romeros even knew Tim dealt in drugs. Tim was only there after work from Monday through Wednesday. He most likely showered, ate and went to the local hangout and staid way beyond this boy's bedtime. I doubt that drugs were in the child's environment. His definition of "bad guys" is those who smokes cigarettes and plays loud music. Doesn't seem like a child that lived in a drug environment imo.

We do know that all the guns were kept under the bed in the master bedroom. I am positive that the boy knew they were hands off.

The house was strewn with clothing. I noticed things in the kitchen and toilet and sink in the bathroom was very clean. Maybe since she worked all week she picked up on the weekends.

The only time that we know that Vinnie slapped the boy was when he threatened to kill him, right to his face. I would not slap my child ......well I don't think I would.......but I have never had any of my children threaten to kill me and certainly haven't done so right to my face. So I think it was an over response due to the horrible thing said to him by his own son.

imoo

 

[chiperoni]

The boy wouldn't have to know TR was a drug dealer but unless his father was a hermit he had to know. He was a known drug dealer and meth is a powerful nasty drug. Did TR really just stay from M-W? That might have been the arrangement but so many things have come to light. We now know that Tim was arrested just a year ago with meth and marijuana in his truck. I guess that ruins your statement that he was only arrested way back in the nineties and he never dealt drugs. You mean that Vince didn't know his reputation and TR's presence in the household had no effect? We have to wait and see. A meth dealer would have a very bad influence in any household. It is a powerful and addictive drug.

 

[oceanblueeyes]

The boy wouldn't have to know TR was a drug dealer but unless his father was a hermit he had to know. He was a known drug dealer and meth is a powerful nasty drug. Did TR really just stay from M-W? That might have been the arrangement but so many things have come to light. We now know that Tim was arrested just a year ago with meth and marijuana in his truck. I guess that ruins your statement that he was only arrested way back in the nineties and he never dealt drugs. You mean that Vince didn't know his reputation and TR's presence in the household had no effect? We have to wait and see. A meth dealer would have a very bad influence in any household. It is a powerful and addictive drug.

I never heard of Tim doing drug dealings in St. John. That info came from the San Carlos PD, a 170 miles away from where he worked and stayed three days a week at the Romero home.

Even if arrested a year ago that wasn't in St. John where the Romeros lived.

Why would he know his reputation when he was from another town all together. He was just a coworker of his at the power plant in St John.

No drugs were found anywhere and I am sure they even tested to see if any residue was in his truck. None in either of the victims bodies when they died.

Yes it is true that he only had started staying with them 2 or 3 months before they were killed and stayed only Monday through Wednesday. There is a link here somewhere where Tanya Romans talks about that.

imoo