AZ - Timothy Romans, 39, & Vincent Romero, 29, slain, St Johns, 5 Nov 2008 - #4

[fran]

Wonder if St. Johns PD thought to look for a false panel behind the driver's seat in Tim's truck.

Actually, I'm not wonderin' because I'm pretty sure they didn't even think of it. The Reservation police didn't think of it. It must have been something pretty important,.........Tim broke into his own impounded vehicle after he'd escaped to take it.

Wonder why investigators were so interested on Nicole? They asked everyone about her. Interesting. I read that she was supposed to be there that day but she left.

Also intriguing that the one person that many people that worked with the two victims mentioned to LE to check out, just happens to have a white vehicle, just happens to have a 22, and just happened to be going through St. Johns at the time of the murders. He also said he had 'no problem' with both of the victims yet everyone at work said he did. He also recently had called Tim AND he didn't know Vince had a son.

Was he the person Tim told someone that "wanted to KILL him?"

All just a coincidence, I'm sure.

JMHO
fran

PS....Has anyone found out who Augustine Logan is? You know, the dl and check card Tim had in his glove box. That's the same guy Tim had a check book in his truck when he was arrested in '07, and a check made out to him for $1000.

 

[Razzle]

There is no evidence that the Romeros even knew Tim dealt in drugs. Tim was only there after work from Monday through Wednesday. He most likely showered, ate and went to the local hangout and staid way beyond this boy's bedtime. I doubt that drugs were in the child's environment. His definition of "bad guys" is those who smokes cigarettes and plays loud music. Doesn't seem like a child that lived in a drug environment imo.

We do know that all the guns were kept under the bed in the master bedroom. I am positive that the boy knew they were hands off.

The house was strewn with clothing. I noticed things in the kitchen and toilet and sink in the bathroom was very clean. Maybe since she worked all week she picked up on the weekends.

The only time that we know that Vinnie slapped the boy was when he threatened to kill him, right to his face. I would not slap my child ......well I don't think I would.......but I have never had any of my children threaten to kill me and certainly haven't done so right to my face. So I think it was an over response due to the horrible thing said to him by his own son.

imoo

Everything that I stated is true from what we know.

 

[Fairy1]

I never heard of Tim doing drug dealings in St. John. That info came from the San Carlos PD, a 170 miles away from where he worked and stayed three days a week at the Romero home.

Even if arrested a year ago that wasn't in St. John where the Romeros lived.

Why would he know his reputation when he was from another town all together. He was just a coworker of his at the power plant in St John.

No drugs were found anywhere and I am sure they even tested to see if any residue was in his truck. None in either of the victims bodies when they died.

Yes it is true that he only had started staying with them 2 or 3 months before they were killed and stayed only Monday through Wednesday. There is a link here somewhere where Tanya Romans talks about that.

imoo

With all due respect, OBE, I just don't understand where you're coming from. Do you HONESTLY believe that a man, busted for possession with intent to distribute less than a year before his death was completely reformed? Maybe TR went to St. John to get away from the heat. We have no idea if drugs or residue was found in his truck when he was killed. And, based on what we've seen of the work of the SJPD, it's entirely possible they never really looked at or tested the truck.

We also don't have ANY idea what was going on in that house. Based on your own personal experiences OBE, why is it so impossible for you to believe this child was being abused? You have been on WS long enough to know that horrific things go on behind closed doors everywhere and even family members and close friends don't know anything at all about it.

TR was NOT a good person. I'm sorry, but it's true. I guarantee that he was still dealing drugs in St. John and it's entirely possible that Vincent either knew about it or was in on it himself.

At the very least, Vincent showed extremely poor judgement in allowing a virtual stranger to move into a home with a NEW wife and a young child. Even if he didn't know what TR was doing on the side.

Regardless of the plea deal, I honestly believe we will never really know what happened or why. That being said, CR may very well NOT be better off being with his mom. There was a reason Vincent had custody (at least in the beginning).

 

[colette]

Time will tell. We may learn more if there is a civil trial. I'm also sure we haven't heard the last from this boy. Such a cold blooded killer will not lead a crime-free life.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Even if you ignore the mess in the house, there is still the statement from relatives that Vincent "slapped" CR

IMOO

I'm not shocked in the least that his father slapped him. You failed to put it in context. The boy told his father that he would KILL HIM! His father slapped him and responded, "How Dare YOU! and a slap.

I am not sure I wouldn't have responded the same, if my child EVER said such a vile thing.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Time will tell. We may learn more if there is a civil trial. I'm also sure we haven't heard the last from this boy. Such a cold blooded killer will not lead a crime-free life.

Sadly, I totally agree.

 

[Trino]

JMHOfran

PS....Has anyone found out who Augustine Logan is? You know, the dl and check card Tim had in his glove box. That's the same guy Tim had a check book in his truck when he was arrested in '07, and a check made out to him for $1000.

2007 was a long time before the murders. While this may be part of Tim's past, I don't think it had anything to do with the murders.

The court, prosecuting attorneys, and defense attorneys seem to acknowledge the boy's guilt. Most everyone is past the "who done it part" and are no onto what should and will be done with the boy.

It appears he will not be going home with his mother but will be in a treatment facility or foster care. This is probably for the best, since I don't know that Eryn could handle the boy plus all that's going on in her life (job, divorce, different state). Where will the boy be going? For how long? Will/should this include some sort of incarceration?

 

[Linda7NJ]

The AP News Wire has issued a correction to the latest news.
PARAPHRASED***********
The Associated Press erroneously reported the boy's LAWYER stated the boy would be spared jail time as part of the plea agreement.

CORRECTION...the BOY'S LAWYER in fact said, the boy would be spared from jail time in the STATE'S DETENTION the possibility remains he could do time in the COUNTY DETENTION FACILITY

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/...qNNTAD96AUB704

 

[fran]

2007 was a long time before the murders. While this may be part of Tim's past, I don't think it had anything to do with the murders.

The court, prosecuting attorneys, and defense attorneys seem to acknowledge the boy's guilt. Most everyone is past the "who done it part" and are no onto what should and will be done with the boy.

It appears he will not be going home with his mother but will be in a treatment facility or foster care. This is probably for the best, since I don't know that Eryn could handle the boy plus all that's going on in her life (job, divorce, different state). Where will the boy be going? For how long? Will/should this include some sort of incarceration?

With all due respect, obviously you're not familiar with the drug culture and most especially 'meth.' A year is not a long time when it comes to 'dealing' and 'using.' I've known of people that have been in rehab mutltiple times, in between jail terms, and are still using twenty years later.

I believe the discussion on this forum shows that 'most people' are not necessarily 'past the 'who done it part,'' and shows, imo, that if there was a jury trial, this child very well COULD be found innocent or at the least a hung jury. However, that would take years and possible multiple trials and in the meantime, LE would have this child, most likely, behind bars ruining his entire life and not just his childhood.

Ninety-five perscent of cases filed are settled with a 'plea deal.' This case has opened my eyes a great deal AND has made me question just how much justice is involved? It seems it's more about winning, imo.

I have to wonder how many people serving time took a plea deal and they're actually innocent. They just knew that they were too poor or a number of other reasons, and knew they couldn't fight the system. Rather than going through years of a possible trial and still have the CHANCE of loosing, they were willing to take a lessor sentence. How many?

The innocence project has proven there are people behind bars that even had trials and found guilty, that are 100% innocent. I always thought that was a fluke. Now I'm wondering just how 'normal,' or SOP it is. The implications, brought to light by this case (to me), are frightening. Is it a wonder our crime statistics are so high?

LE hasn't proven to ME this child is guilty. There are too many questions hanging open that I would want the answer to, before I could declare I believe the boy did it. In addition, I haven't seen one piece of evidence that points to only him. Not one.

I'm actually stunned that so many people are perfectly willing to 'assume' they know the answers or avoid the questions, and take LE 'word' this child is guilty. It's like they don't want to know the 'bad' stuff about the victims and want 'someone' to pay so string 'em up.

Bad people are murdered. Doesn't mean they deserved to die. Were these men bad? We already know Tim was not exactly a pillar of the community. Nothing has been proven that Vince wasn't a nice guy. I know he slapped his son once and he had someone else spank him, but that's not proof of abuse. But we'll most likely never know either way,............because LE has chosen to take the easy way out.

From what I know about this case, here and now, I would allow this child to live in my home. I can see that he's going to need some therapy, if from nothing else, what LE has done to him.

To be quite honest, what I fear, is for the people of St. Johns, Arizona. I believe they have a killer running loose and,..............well,...........not knowing the 'motive' behind these murders, I wonder if he's done.

I would be afraid if I lived in St. Johns. VERY afraid.

JMHO
fran

 

[Linda7NJ]

His gun was the murder weapon

His claim he was out walking around the block 10+ times doesn't hold water.

The ear & now EYE witnesses. Tanya on phone. Neighbor heard shots and sees boy outside with his dog, playing, immediately after hearing gun pops with a few second delay between each pop.

Eye witness sees the boy WALKING away from his home approx 2 minutes are gun shots ended.

The threats the boy made in anger at family reunion

Threats he made to another child that caused that child to be so concerned he reported it to the bus driver.

The kid was quite capable of shooting his own gun & had access to it. The gun was left on the dog cage. Box of shells nearby.

His bloody underwewar and sock were found with victims blood in the hallway.

The GSR doesn't exclude him and his prints were found on the box holding ammo. That too doesn't exclude him.

His own grand parents thought he was the likely killer and thought he was capable.

His own mother said he changed recently.

Friend of the family says witnessed this boy trying to drown his half-sister in a bath tub.

Teachers called him manipulative and intelligent.

He was misbehaving in school

Grounded recently

Spanked recently

Very obviously angry over it, he brought it up. That anger seems to have been directed at his father. Tim it seems, was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

His lawyer requested a CHANGE OF PLEA

The "confession" is PACK OF LIES the boy told while trying to manipulate the situation and make himself look like some kind of twisted hero in the process

 

[fran]

Well, with all due respect Linda, your post is filled more with ‘your opinion’ and interpretation than fact. Just my opinion.

If you would be so kind, could you please show me the way to {proof} that the child's gun was the murder weapon.

That's 'your' opinion that the child was not walking around the block. NOT fact.

The child said he called Tim. So his wife saying she heard him call Tim, goes along with what he told LE.

The neighbor, from what I could decipher from the poorly copied pages, said a 'few minutes' after the gun shot sounds, he saw the boy with the dog. The child said he let the dog out of his cage. The neighbor said the child was ‘walking’ by the dog away from the residence. So the point is?

Threats are hardly proof of guilt. OTOH, Tim told someone that there was 'someone who wanted to kill him.' Does that not count? or just that it doesn't fit into the scenario the child is guilty?

LE declared the gun as the 'murder weapon' without any proof. Do you have a link to the proof this was the murder weapon? All I saw was a news article that declared it was the 'murder weapon,' but I haven't seen that page of a report,............and I don't necessarily believe everything I read in the Arizona news. I need 'proof.'

There was NO blood detected on the underware on what I saw. Do you have a link? What I read said there was blood on a 'sock,' NO blood on briefs, t shirt, sweatshirt. Are we reading the same report? Even as far as the sock goes that they did detect blood, there’s no report of who’s blood it is, no indication of WHERE the sock was retrieved from or when. IF the sock was retrieved from the floor of the residence, and most especially the hallway, it’s difficult to determine ‘how’ the blood got on the sock, much less who’s, since they don’t have that in the report.

Again, ‘threats’ are NOT proof of guilt. Like I said, Tim (one of the victims) told someone that ‘someone wanted to kill him.’ That, IMHO, is much more ominous than hearing the angry words of a small child. But, that’s just me.

The box of ammo was found in the child’s own home. It’s understandable that his prints would be on there. Do you know who the ‘unidentified prints’ belong to?….. I don’t.

Of course the child had changed of late. His dad had just gotten married and his new mom and dad had taken in a border. So?

I know lots of 8 yo that are smart and manipulative. That is not a proof of anything, much less murder.

Tim was a KNOWN drug addict and drug dealer. It’s your opinion he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Well……..actually, in a way you’re right, he was murdered after all. I’m just not sure it wasn’t he that was actually the ‘target’ of the gunman and poor Vince just got caught in the cross fire.

The pros has been gunning for a plea deal since the very beginning. As a matter of fact, it was the pros who initially told the news that a ‘deal’ was in the works and the def attorney contradicted him.

As are others, I was a little taken aback when I saw the def was now considering a plea. But after reading up about this procedure and more about the court system, I’m really not surprised. It seems the tables are stacked against this poor child. Although LE has destroyed the chances of ever getting justice for these two victims, it’s obvious, to me, that now they need to save face and a judge is more so than not, going to try to settle the case without making the State look bad. In this case, at the expense of an innocent child.

FWIW, what really bothers me, is that with this plea deal, TRUE justice will never be brought about for these two victims,……………..and even more disturbing, there’s a killer among the innocent people of St. Johns.

JMHO
fran

PS….oh, yes,……….the bogus confession……..I guess it’s how you interpret it. Which part was lies. Some believe the boy’s original version was lies, I believe the second part was a lie,……….the second part that the two police officers led the boy to MAKE UP.

 

[Linda7NJ]

Well, with all due respect Linda, your post is filled more with ‘your opinion’ and interpretation than fact. Just my opinion.

If you would be so kind, could you please show me the way to {proof} that the child's gun was the murder weapon.

That's 'your' opinion that the child was not walking around the block. NOT fact.

The child said he called Tim. So his wife saying she heard him call Tim, goes along with what he told LE.

The neighbor, from what I could decipher from the poorly copied pages, said a 'few minutes' after the gun shot sounds, he saw the boy with the dog. The child said he let the dog out of his cage. The neighbor said the child was ‘walking’ by the dog away from the residence. So the point is?

Threats are hardly proof of guilt. OTOH, Tim told someone that there was 'someone who wanted to kill him.' Does that not count? or just that it doesn't fit into the scenario the child is guilty?

LE declared the gun as the 'murder weapon' without any proof. Do you have a link to the proof this was the murder weapon? All I saw was a news article that declared it was the 'murder weapon,' but I haven't seen that page of a report,............and I don't necessarily believe everything I read in the Arizona news. I need 'proof.'

There was NO blood detected on the underware on what I saw. Do you have a link? What I read said there was blood on a 'sock,' NO blood on briefs, t shirt, sweatshirt. Are we reading the same report? Even as far as the sock goes that they did detect blood, there’s no report of who’s blood it is, no indication of WHERE the sock was retrieved from or when. IF the sock was retrieved from the floor of the residence, and most especially the hallway, it’s difficult to determine ‘how’ the blood got on the sock, much less who’s, since they don’t have that in the report.

Again, ‘threats’ are NOT proof of guilt. Like I said, Tim (one of the victims) told someone that ‘someone wanted to kill him.’ That, IMHO, is much more ominous than hearing the angry words of a small child. But, that’s just me.

The box of ammo was found in the child’s own home. It’s understandable that his prints would be on there. Do you know who the ‘unidentified prints’ belong to?….. I don’t.

Of course the child had changed of late. His dad had just gotten married and his new mom and dad had taken in a border. So?

I know lots of 8 yo that are smart and manipulative. That is not a proof of anything, much less murder.

Tim was a KNOWN drug addict and drug dealer. It’s your opinion he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Well……..actually, in a way you’re right, he was murdered after all. I’m just not sure it wasn’t he that was actually the ‘target’ of the gunman and poor Vince just got caught in the cross fire.

The pros has been gunning for a plea deal since the very beginning. As a matter of fact, it was the pros who initially told the news that a ‘deal’ was in the works and the def attorney contradicted him.

As are others, I was a little taken aback when I saw the def was now considering a plea. But after reading up about this procedure and more about the court system, I’m really not surprised. It seems the tables are stacked against this poor child. Although LE has destroyed the chances of ever getting justice for these two victims, it’s obvious, to me, that now they need to save face and a judge is more so than not, going to try to settle the case without making the State look bad. In this case, at the expense of an innocent child.

FWIW, what really bothers me, is that with this plea deal, TRUE justice will never be brought about for these two victims,……………..and even more disturbing, there’s a killer among the innocent people of St. Johns.

JMHO
fran

PS….oh, yes,……….the bogus confession……..I guess it’s how you interpret it. Which part was lies. Some believe the boy’s original version was lies, I believe the second part was a lie,……….the second part that the two police officers led the boy to MAKE UP.

Proof the boy's gun was the murder weapon

http://www.november2008stjohnsdoubl...oad/DPS LAB REPORT 2-10-09- 002057-002059.pdf

I'm not going to finish responding to your post now...I'll be back later.

 

[fran]

Thank you for the link, Linda, I hadn't seen that report.

Since I'm assuming we all want truth, I need to ask a question.

From this report, only two bullets were fired through the boy's gun. It appears, I'm not certain, one each victim. The other bullets were 'inconclusive,' or 'similar.'

This indicates to me there was most likely another weapon.

Now, just for truth's sake, wouldn't everyone want to be SURE there were not two weapons used?

Tim was reported, in 11/07, to have told LE officers he had a 22.

The person who several employees at their job told LE to talk to because he didn't get along with the two victims, reported he has a 22, single action.

There was supposed to be another 22 automatic rifle at the murder scene, but LE did not find one.

With the ballistics showing the possibility of a second weapon and at least three OTHER 22's that COULD be looked at, the child's prints were not on the shell casings, not on the rifle, no blood on the rifle, no blood on the boy's clothing, except one drop on the pants and we don't know that it's a victim, it could have been the boys,
???????????????????????????????????????????????????

Are you honestly comfortable throwing this child under the bus without answers to these?

Seriously....not to win an argument or discussion or anything, as a matter of justice.

You're comfortable with that, NO answers?

JMHO
fran

PS.......Linda, I realize you said {proof} the 'child's gun was the murder weapon,' but...............why aren't his prints on it? Why do the majority of the bullets {appear} to PERHAPS being fired by a second weapon? This still doesn't put the gun in this child's hand......??????fran

 

[Trino]

Are you honestly comfortable throwing this child under the bus without answers to these?

Seriously....not to win an argument or discussion or anything, as a matter of justice.

You're comfortable with that, NO answers? JMHO fran

Although this is not directed to me, I'm comfortable with it. And, I don't call it throwing the child under the bus. LE, the prosecuting attorney and defense attorney are more involved and have much more information than we have. I believe they know they boy did this.

 

[fran]

Although this is not directed to me, I'm comfortable with it. And, I don't call it throwing the child under the bus. LE, the prosecuting attorney and defense attorney are more involved and have much more information than we have. I believe they know they boy did this.

Thank you for your opinion Trino.

fran

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Fran, IMO only two could be conclusively connected to the boy's weapon because most of the bullets fragmented once they entered the bodies and heads. I would think most of them would have been in poor shape since the bullet is so small and it tends to fragment as it hits various parts inside the body and head.

I saw no evidence that they appeared to be fired from another gun.


imoo

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Although this is not directed to me, I'm comfortable with it. And, I don't call it throwing the child under the bus. LE, the prosecuting attorney and defense attorney are more involved and have much more information than we have. I believe they know they boy did this.

I agree. I am not throwing him under the bus. Imo from the evidence that we know about it shows me he indeed is the one who did this.

I also agree, Trino, there is much more that we don't know that the DA/LE and defense attorneys know. When the discovery supplemental was turned over to the defense it said they turned over around 400 pages from the DPS investigation but yet on the site, the DPS report is only around 98 or 99 pages long.

imoo

 

[fran]

Fran, IMO only two could be conclusively connected to the boy's weapon because most of the bullets fragmented once they entered the bodies and heads. I would think most of them would have been in poor shape since the bullet is so small and it tends to fragment as it hits various parts inside the body and head.

I saw no evidence that they appeared to be fired from another gun.


imoo

We've seen nothing to show they came from that gun either.

The gun hasn't been placed in the child's hands at the scene.

JMHO
fran

 

[oceanblueeyes]

We've seen nothing to show they came from that gun either.

The gun hasn't been placed in the child's hands at the scene.

JMHO
fran

But what it does show imo is his story was a lie.

I doubt the two bullets that were conclusively tied to this gun where the bullets that entered the skulls of the victim. I think it is very logical to think those bullets sustained a lot of fragmentation as they bounced around the skulls.

So IMO the two found to match were probably the ones done to the forearm of Tim Romans and the left elbow of Vinnie Romero.

IMO the actual bullets and where each bullet was found are not consistent with the story he told of ending their pain and suffering, which all hunters are taught to do that by doing head shots.

We may not know if it ties him to the gun but I do know it said the DPS report was about 400 pages long and only a fourth of it is up on the site to see. So I do think it is known by the parties that are tied to this case legally. Hence the plea deal.

imoo

 

[fran]

But what it does show imo is his story was a lie.

I doubt the two bullets that were conclusively tied to this gun where the bullets that entered the skulls of the victim. I think it is very logical to think those bullets sustained a lot of fragmentation as they bounced around the skulls.

So IMO the two found to match were probably the ones done to the forearm of Tim Romans and the left elbow of Vinnie Romero.

IMO the actual bullets and where each bullet was found are not consistent with the story he told of ending their pain and suffering, which all hunters are taught to do that by doing head shots.

We may not know if it ties him to the gun but I do know it said the DPS report was about 400 pages long and only a fourth of it is up on the site to see. So I do think it is known by the parties that are tied to this case legally. Hence the plea deal.

imoo

So, I think I understand your reasoning OBE. You are basing your 'opinion' on assumptions?

Would this mean that, IF you were on a jury, you would vote the same way with what you assume now?........

Or would you want to KNOW the answers before making such a decision?

TIA,
fran