Babcock Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #3

[JuneBug67]

As I recall Mark was councilling Dellen on incinerator size, in May or June of 2012.

He was helping him incinerator scout for sure. But SS will get up on the stand next week and explain that DM said he was going into the animal creation business and as evidence stands right now it is still open to MS to argue that that’s what he thought too. He suggested a dog for his “wet with bones” test, not a homeless person. I wish there was evidence on what that monstrous thing was supposed to be for. Body disposal business? Chop shop facilitator? General problem solver? It matters, because it could mean that it was a callous afterthought for accidental deaths or unplanned murders. I’m hoping things are much clearer to the jury than they are to me right now.

 

[Claroon]

I'm hung up on his lyrics "last time I saw her was outside the home" (surely they wouldn't have killed her outside?) To me this implies that he was definitely involved in the incineration and remains/phone disposal, but not the actual killing.



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MS and DM's phones pinged from the 5 Maple Gate area at the suspected time of death. From background, we know DM always had people on "lookout." I suspect MS was on lookout duty outside when LB was taken into the house. While on lookout duty either outside or inside somewhere, MS did drugs that zoned him out. DM later texting him to find out where he was because DM was not about to leave the dead body. He needed MS to come and wrap the spliff. IMO

He took part in the murder. Say if LB was merely unconscious when she was put in the incinerator, the incinerator would kill her too. He did nothing to notify LE. He is guilty. IMO

 

[Claroon]

Maybe DM drown her in the pool, hence the lyric in the rap about last time seeing her outside the home.

I thought about that too once MS suggested they test the incinerator with something "wet."

 

[Claroon]

I'm just going to add than nothing has to be fully proven: it just has to be the most reasonable explanation.

"Beyond a reasonable doubt" means a bunch of people have to agree on the most likely scenario, not prove absolutely what happened.

Yes, in the TB case the judge went over a decision tree:

Also Monday, the judge began running through his decision trees — which act as a kind of flow chart to those verdicts depending on how the jury interprets the evidence. The trees, which can be exceptionally complex, provide four different avenues in which the jury can reach a verdict.

"Your duty is to consider all of the evidence, not just the parts that I referenced," Goodman said.

Of the four trees:

The first considers if an accused is a principal (i.e., the person who shot Bosma).
The second considers if the accused is an aider or abettor (knowingly helping or aiding the other in the murder).
The third considers if there's a common unlawful purpose (which Goodman referred to as the "theft of truck gone badly scenario").
The fourth is a supplementary tree, which he instructed the jury to only use if it can't decide which person shot Bosma.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/bosma-justice-charge-jury-day2-1.3632323

 

[inbetweendoors]

MS and DM's phones pinged from the 5 Maple Gate area at the suspected time of death. From background, we know DM always had people on "lookout." I suspect MS was on lookout duty outside when LB was taken into the house. While on lookout duty either outside or inside somewhere, MS did drugs that zoned him out. DM later texting him to find out where he was because DM was not about to leave the dead body. He needed MS to come and wrap the spliff. IMO

He took part in the murder. Say if LB was merely unconscious when she was put in the incinerator, the incinerator would kill her too. He did nothing to notify LE. He is guilty. IMO

Didn't DM "roll the spliff"? And MS was asking him where he was, not the other way around? Apologies if I'm not recalling correctly.

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[Oreck]

I thought about that too once MS suggested they test the incinerator with something "wet."

Wet and boney, didn't he say?

 

[Alban]

WHAT THE JURY SAW: Laura Babcock Trial — What was found on Millard’s computers (3) https://youtu.be/chOvpgDI8g4

 

[Woodland]

Perhaps, but I think more it's because someone over 18 has a right to do what they want and unless there is a body or evidence of foul play, LE are too busy to chase after every missing person. Even her parents suspected she was away on a trip.

LB told people that she was going on a trip - for one week. She dropped off the grid on 4 July and by 14 July SL reported her missing. She was suppose to be back, and being away on a trip does not prevent anyone from using their fb, texting etc - something LB did not do in that 10 day period.

Imo Toronto Police let LB and her family/friends down - too busy doesn't fly imo. It was too late on 14 July of course to save LB, however a small effort to look for her would have shown she had disappeared from the life she knew up to the evening of 3 July 2012 and that something was very wrong.

DM left Canada for a trip many times - what would his parents and or LE have done if he didn't resurface 7 or more days after he was due back? The question is rhetorical btw.

 

[Kamille]

He was helping him incinerator scout for sure. But SS will get up on the stand next week and explain that DM said he was going into the animal creation business and as evidence stands right now it is still open to MS to argue that that’s what he thought too. He suggested a dog for his “wet with bones” test, not a homeless person. I wish there was evidence on what that monstrous thing was supposed to be for. Body disposal business? Chop shop facilitator? General problem solver? It matters, because it could mean that it was a callous afterthought for accidental deaths or unplanned murders. I’m hoping things are much clearer to the jury than they are to me right now.

I still think this really boils down to a plan that likely MS came up with to facilitate stealing items that required an owner's involvement in. They were having trouble in 2011 finding a Dodge Ram to steal for the May 2012 race that didn't require someone giving them keys and access to. They were scoping but there was always a problem with just taking one. So someone hatched the plan, and I believe it was MS who was going the think on it but not sure who actually came up with it, to take a vehicle from a test drive. If the owner needed to be "eliminated" for the end gain, so be it. Now how best to dispose of a body. Eureka!! We'll get my lackie to build a home made incinerator. From there I think it got DM excited about the prospect of a mission to kill and incinerate a body just for the thrill of it. When the homemade one wasn't working, he wanted to look for something adequate. He put SS on that job and when SS found one, he probably really got excited. Put it on wheels, give it a generator, and I can hide it and use it at my secluded farm.

The 2012 race came and went and for whatever reason, DM did not go. Probably because of his father putting his foot down about needing him to work on the new hangar and the cost of that month long trip the previous year. So that truck stealing plan got put on the back burner but I'd imagine DM was still thinking about killing and eliminating someone. LB was an easy target and CN wanted her out of their lives. A new plan was born. But the original plan was still going to be a go for the 2013 race. Just had to eliminate the other obstacle, his father, first. And using LB for a practice run was a thrill he couldn't resist.

After that, DM talked about big missions and how he needed to make $100,000 a month to stay afloat with AM. Not sure what that plan was going to be but it's apparent that if AM knows, he's not telling. Perhaps it included stealing bigger ticket items. I do recall AM scoping for a large boat/yacht down at the lakeshore.

MOO

ETA: Even if this is correct, it's obvious that this jury can not know this. But it was eluded to in TB's trial.

 

[bcgirl]

Thanks for your thoughts. Is it a bit strange that he would have kept it for many years after Carl's death? Why keep a wheelchair accessible van you no longer need?

He didn't really need the money and had lots of places to park it.

 

[paris_paris]

Say if LB was merely unconscious when she was put in the incinerator, the incinerator would kill her too. He did nothing to notify LE. He is guilty. IMO

Merely unconscious when she was incinerated 20 days later?

 

[THXGuru]

I find the evidence complicated by two things: a certain lack of clarity from out here and the fact that it’s hard for it to not to run all together with what I know from the TB trial. I’m finding it hard to keep a meaningful sense of what the jury has actually seen in this case. The motive may be challenged because Dell didn’t really much care about anybody beyond himself and there is ample evidence he treated Christina poorly. I think we’re missing a giant piece in that all these years later we still don’t really know what the incinerator was for in the grand scheme of their hopes for a criminal empire. It never made sense that it was just for a truck and it doesn’t make sense that it was just for a girl. There seems to be a certain distance between Smich and Millard’s known acts on the 3rd and 4th that is currently hard to understand. I’m hoping the rest of the crown’s case sharpens all this, but they are hobbled by the fact that the investigation was a year late.

This case is a slam dunk. Case closed. Regardless of TB and what we know.

 

[paris_paris]

Appreciate the videos, but I wish it was all in pdf format or something.

There are some missing pieces there. (Good luck filling in the gaps billandrew). The trip to London that left us hanging... MS replied he forgot why they were going and asked what tools he should bring, but DM's response is not there. Still left us hanging, but I feel like it's something that will show more information in another trial.

 

[THXGuru]

This may not be a popular opinion, but here goes... (and of course all MOO):

I know there is plenty of evidence to come, however my preliminary opinion is that I'm finding it hard to reconcile MS being a part of the actual murder of LB (again, *so far*).

I'm hung up on his lyrics "last time I saw her was outside the home" (surely they wouldn't have killed her outside?) and the witness "garage testimony" that he said "we burned a girl and dumped her in the lake". To me this implies that he was definitely involved in the incineration and remains/phone disposal, but not the actual killing.

It also seems like DM was going out of his way to set MS up to take the fall - having him pose for Eliminator photos, while ensuring pics of himself were innocuous (standing on bucket with plane close to the same time as the tarp pic - taken at separate locations), giving MS the red bag and the iPad. I also don't think it's implausible that DM himself named the iPad "Mark's iPad" while setting it up prior to giving it to him. After all, it had DM's iTunes info of which the password MS was initially not privy to.

This isn't to say MS didn't have a hand in planning...though I don't feel we've seen evidence to support that just yet.

Helping DM obtain firearms could even be argued that his intention was to commit armed robberies (missions) but not murder.

Not saying he's a good guy by any stretch, but I'm interested to see what additional info may be presented about phone locations at the time of the murder and any other evidence the Crown may present against MS. If I were the jury, *at this point*, I don't think I'd feel confident convicting MS of M1.

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Pretty confident about MS as well as DM. He told someone they killed a girl. He made the rap video. Was in pictures related to the Eliminator.

 

[inbetweendoors]

Pretty confident about MS as well as DM. He told someone they killed a girl. He made the rap video. Was in pictures related to the Eliminator.

Actually he told someone they burned a girl. He didn't say killed. Same with the rap. Doesnt mention the killing part.
That, among the other reasons I listed, leaves me with doubts about MS and the actual murder.

 

[Errrr]

He was helping him incinerator scout for sure. But SS will get up on the stand next week and explain that DM said he was going into the animal creation business and as evidence stands right now it is still open to MS to argue that that’s what he thought too. He suggested a dog for his “wet with bones” test, not a homeless person. I wish there was evidence on what that monstrous thing was supposed to be for. Body disposal business? Chop shop facilitator? General problem solver? It matters, because it could mean that it was a callous afterthought for accidental deaths or unplanned murders. I’m hoping things are much clearer to the jury than they are to me right now.

Don't forget, he advised DM that the smaller unit would require some chopping. He must already have known the size of the subjects they had in mind.

 

[THXGuru]

Actually he told someone they burned a girl. He didn't say killed. Same with the rap. Doesnt mention the killing part.
That, among the other reasons I listed, leaves me with doubts about MS and the actual murder.

Does not matter to me if he said burned. Burned could mean still alive. Tried burning her before. Many different things. The rap implies she was killed. Good enough for me.

 

[inbetweendoors]

Don't forget, he advised DM that the smaller unit would require some chopping. He must have already have known the size of the subjects they had in mind.

Do you have a link for these discussions? I must have missed them somewhere along the line and I'm curious. TIA

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[Kamille]

WHAT THE JURY SAW: Laura Babcock Trial — What was found on Millard’s computers (3) https://youtu.be/chOvpgDI8g4

Interesting to note that in April 2012, when MS was begging DM for money, that DM threw him a hundred bucks and then told him he only had $2000 left in his bank account and $7500 in credit card debt. No idea if this was true, but he did seem to only have access to Millardair credit cards at some point. Seems like perhaps his personal funds were running dry and he was at the mercy of his father and Millardair. He may have really been cash poor and property rich at that point. Not sure he would have put the Eliminator through the company as an expense if he'd had the funds to pay for it himself.

MOO

 

[MrsThreadgoode]

Maybe she will say MS was " celebrating " again. IMO

Gosh, I didn’t know she was in that horrific rap video. I must take a closer look.


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