Babcock Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #5

[inbetweendoors]

I wonder about this: DM and CN were fighting or broken up because CN had texted a sex invite to Boris. What if DM slept with LB as a means of "getting back" at CN. Then realized that if CN ever found out he'd never have a chance at getting back with her. He knew LB had boasted to CN before about sleeping with him, and he feared that if he didn't get rid of her, his relationship was doomed.

So far this is the only "love triangle" theory that makes sense to me, specifically in terms of premeditation.

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[Errrr]

I wonder about this: DM and CN were fighting or broken up because CN had texted a sex invite to Boris. What if DM slept with LB as a means of "getting back" at CN. Then realized that if CN ever found out he'd never have a chance at getting back with her. He knew LB had boasted to CN before about sleeping with him, and he feared that if he didn't get rid of her, his relationship was doomed.

Turn em upside down, they're all the same.

 

[winter2017]

This is my opinion , if MS does take the stand I think it will be a stupid thing to do. He is not believable due to his bad character and in the first trial the most stupid story he told about going into forest to bury the gun , after I heard that I knew nothing he had to say could be believed.
Either MM is lying when she said he was with her in the basement when Laura was killed and he was with DM to help kill her. IT is extremely believable MM was lying. I doubt the jury will in anyway view MM as a credible person due to bad character.
IT is like the stigma that was against Laura due to her involvement in drugs the police did not do more to look into her murder.
That same stigma will apply to MM. How could someone like her possibly be believed. She was a drug addict and even contradicted herself under oath.
It does not matter that she claims now to have turned her life around , right, isn't that what most people with her past do, and I doubt most of them are believable.
Her past background will definitely be given consideration. That would be like the gun dealer swearing he is reformed now and found God and so a new person. sure.
I was unsure in the first trial if MS would get convicted but when he told that story about going into the forest to bury gun that was it for me, I thought what kind of moron he was.

 

[inbetweendoors]

This is my opinion , if MS does take the stand I think it will be a stupid thing to do. He is not believable due to his bad character and in the first trial the most stupid story he told about going into forest to bury the gun , after I heard that I knew nothing he had to say could be believed.
Either MM is lying when she said he was with her in the basement when Laura was killed and he was with DM to help kill her. IT is extremely believable MM was lying. I doubt the jury will in anyway view MM as a credible person due to bad character.
<rsbm>

MM was never asked about her whereabouts the night Laura disappeared, so she definitely didn't say she was with Mark in the basement.
Unless I'm misunderstanding your post?

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[Errrr]

So far this is the only "love triangle" theory that makes sense to me, specifically in terms of premeditation.

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Cyanide catalyst

 

[Grey-St]

This is my opinion , if MS does take the stand I think it will be a stupid thing to do. He is not believable due to his bad character and in the first trial the most stupid story he told about going into forest to bury the gun , after I heard that I knew nothing he had to say could be believed.
Either MM is lying when she said he was with her in the basement when Laura was killed and he was with DM to help kill her. IT is extremely believable MM was lying. I doubt the jury will in anyway view MM as a credible person due to bad character.
IT is like the stigma that was against Laura due to her involvement in drugs the police did not do more to look into her murder.
That same stigma will apply to MM. How could someone like her possibly be believed. She was a drug addict and even contradicted herself under oath.
It does not matter that she claims now to have turned her life around , right, isn't that what most people with her past do, and I doubt most of them are believable.
Her past background will definitely be given consideration. That would be like the gun dealer swearing he is reformed now and found God and so a new person. sure.
I was unsure in the first trial if MS would get convicted but when he told that story about going into the forest to bury gun that was it for me, I thought what kind of moron he was.

Well... MM never said that. She was never questioned about the events on the 3rd or 4th. She agreed, when cross examined by Dungey, that they were attached at the hip, always together.
So no, I think you're mistaken.

 

[winter2017]

I really doubt the jury will give much credibility to anything MS has to say. They know he was dealing drugs, hung out with a gun dealer, made a rap about a murder and boasted about it. He is a fool if he thinks it can help him, it did not in the first trial if anything it made it worse. The story about going into the forest that has got to win a prize for the most asinine story every told by a person charged with murder.

If MS testifies, I wonder if he’s setting himself up for a perjury charge from the Bosma trial regarding thinking the homemade incinerator was for garbage. He won’t get away with that in this trial, and at the very least you’d expect the Crown to hit him with prior inconsistent testimony to demonstrate he has already lied on the stand. However, I wonder too how that is complicated by any inadmissibility of his prior charge and conviction.

 

[winter2017]

Isn't there something about them being in the basement on those dates? Who is the jury going to believe the phone pings that show MS going to Maplegate on date allegedly Laura was killed or if MS denies it.? When you are already proven to be of bad character that has a lot of impact on a jury IMO.

Well... MM never said that. She was never questioned about the events on the 3rd or 4th. She agreed, when cross-examined by Dungey, that they were attached at the hip, always together.
So no, I think you're mistaken.

 

[inbetweendoors]

Isn't there something about them being in the basement on those dates? Who is the jury going to believe the phone pings that show MS going to Maplegate on date allegedly Laura was killed or if MS denies it.? When you are already proven to be of bad character that has a lot of impact on a jury IMO.

We have no phone pings for MM as far as I'm aware. We can assume she was there as she usually was with MS, but no evidence has been provided to prove that.

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[Grey-St]

Isn't there something about them being in the basement on those dates? Who is the jury going to believe the phone pings that show MS going to Maplegate on date allegedly Laura was killed or if MS denies it.? When you are already proven to be of bad character that has a lot of impact on a jury IMO.

I don't disagree with you regarding MS's credibility and the risk of him taking the stand. I'm just pointing out that MM never testified to some cover story protecting MS, so I think you are mistaken there.

 

[ABro]

I don't think that Laura was a risk to his empire building. I'm not seeing that at all.

I think the Crown is correct in it's assertion that Laura was a problem for DM in his ongoing relationship and pursuit of CN.

Occam's Razor. As much as DM wants us to believe that he wasn't enamoured with CN the truth is, that he was. CN was hot for DM as well. Laura was unhinged, unbalanced and was causing grief for DM. The reality is, Laura and CN bickering put DM in the middle. And BTW, he put himself there because he continued to hook up with Laura all during his relationship with CN.

He needed to get rid of her. She was a liability for him. Make no mistake...he didn't get rid of her for CN. He got rid of her for him. DM is all about himself. She had outgrown her usefulness. He used her just like he used many other women. It was CN he wanted. Laura had to go and she wouldn't go on her own.

MOO

Nah. DM was not enamoured of CN. He was interested in how far he could push her and just how much she would do to be with him. He sensed in her (and Smich) a ruthlessness that wasn't present in others like Jen and Michalski.

Noudga was willing to do anything for Millard, it seems. That was why he kept her around not because he liked her more, but because he could use her in a way that he couldn't use others.

There's truth in his narrative that he didn't care for Noudga and that Jen was the one he cared about, bought gifts for, wanted to marry, posed for happy cat photos with. That's why he keeps pushing it and may even call witnesses to support it.

 

[inbetweendoors]

Nah. DM did not care about CN. He was interested in how far he could push her and just how much she would do to be with him. He sensed in her (and Smich) a ruthlessness that wasn't present in others like Jen and Michalski.

Noudga was willing to do anything for Millard, it seems. That was why he kept her around not because he liked her more, but because he could use her in a way that he couldn't use others.

I'm curious, do you have an opinion on the love triangle theory presented by the Crown, or what do you think the catalyst may have been for him/them to murder Laura?

 

[ABro]

I'm curious, do you have an opinion on the love triangle theory presented by the Crown, or what do you think the catalyst may have been for him/them to murder Laura?

Has the Crown really presented a "love triangle" theory? I haven't been in court since week two so I can't state this with certainty, but I don't believe the crown has ever used the phrase "love triangle." That's the media shorthand. I personally think it's a far more complex set of motivations.

I'm interested to see how the Crown explains it all in their closing arguments.

 

[Errrr]

Nah. DM was not enamoured of CN. He was interested in how far he could push her and just how much she would do to be with him. He sensed in her (and Smich) a ruthlessness that wasn't present in others like Jen and Michalski.

Noudga was willing to do anything for Millard, it seems. That was why he kept her around not because he liked her more, but because he could use her in a way that he couldn't use others.

There's truth in his narrative that he didn't care for Noudga and that Jen was the one he cared about, bought gifts for, wanted to marry, posed for happy cat photos with. That's why he keeps pushing it and may even call witnesses to support it.

I got the impression CN was willing to do anything to become Mrs. Billionaire. She must have been so pissed to discover his true financial situation.

 

[ABro]

I got the impression CN was willing to do anything to become Mrs. Billionaire. She must have been so pissed to discover his true financial situation.

I actually don't think money was her big motivation although it probably didn't hurt. She liked the bad boy aspect, felt warm and loved when he said he would take care of Laura.

 

[Grey-St]

I got the impression CN was willing to do anything to become Mrs. Billionaire. She must have been so pissed to discover his true financial situation.

I think this could be true, but it only scratches the surface.
Narcissists (which I'm of the opinion, she is one) are deeply insecure. DM willing to hurt LB and remove her, made CN feel warm and fuzzy inside, because it fed a deep seeded void. A sense loyalty and security developed, that she may have been longing for. Sometimes these desires hold more value than most monetary inclinations.

 

[inbetweendoors]

Do we know when, or why, DM stopped writing to CN? Was it before or after her home was searched? If before, why?

ETA: The letters from the TB trial appear to go undated after Jan 10 (2014)

 

[JuneBug67]

I think we are entering the zone again. The zone where we are looking for a reason that makes sense to normal folks. Many of us struggled to explain TB's unnecessary death. Some tried to say it was a robbery gone wrong. But those close to TB have repeatedly said Tim would of not struggled over a truck. At some point we need to realize that Robert Burns was making a very strong point; “I don't know what goes on in your head." MOO

Everything about it looked like a robbery gone wrong, with a horror show backup plan.

As for Tim not fighting, I can personally guarantee you that nobody knows how somebody will react in such a high stress situation until it happens. I told a story on here before about a time two men attempted to rob me at knifepoint when I was walking home alone at night. I was a single parent and I had a one year old little boy at home with a sitter. I had a single 20 dollar bill in my bag. Two men, two large stiletto knives, dark street with no houses on the long section I was on, baby at home - the logical answer was clearly to give them the 20 dollars. What I did instead was start swearing at them. “I don’t have any ****ing money. **** off! **** you!” They were walking away from me now, turning a corner probably 15 feet away, and I’m still snarling at them and mocking them! I just did not stop talking and pushing. One guy kind of wheeled around and lunged toward me with the knife to scare me, and that finally snapped me out of the awful, crazy auto pilot I was on. I walked the rest of the way home terrified, both of what had happened and of my own reaction.

There was no calculating, no reasoned sense of self-preservation - it was 100% reaction, and my fear bubbled up and out as a kind of insane anger. All it might have taken was for Tim to instinctively grab for the gun somebody suddenly pulled on him to turn that situation horribly wrong.

 

[inbetweendoors]

Everything about it looked like a robbery gone wrong, with a horror show backup plan.

As for Tim not fighting, I can personally guarantee you that nobody knows how somebody will react in such a high stress situation until it happens. I told a story on here before about a time two men attempted to rob me at knifepoint when I was walking home alone at night. I was a single parent and I had a one year old little boy at home with a sitter. I had a single 20 dollar bill in my bag. Two men, two large stiletto knives, dark street with no houses on the long section I was on, baby at home - the logical answer was clearly to give them the 20 dollars. What I did instead was start swearing at them. “I don’t have any ****ing money. **** off! **** you!” They were walking away from me now, turning a corner probably 15 feet away, and I’m still snarling at them and mocking them! I just did not stop talking and pushing. One guy kind of wheeled around and lunged toward me with the knife to scare me, and that finally snapped me out of the awful, crazy auto pilot I was on. I walked the rest of the way home terrified, both of what had happened and of my own reaction.

There was no calculating, no reasoned sense of self-preservation - it was 100% reaction, and my fear bubbled up and out as a kind of insane anger. All it might have taken was for Tim to instinctively grab for the gun somebody suddenly pulled on him to turn that situation horribly wrong.

I agree that this is most likely what happened. Nothing about it seemed well planned for actual murder.

 

[Grey-St]

Everything about it looked like a robbery gone wrong, with a horror show backup plan.

As for Tim not fighting, I can personally guarantee you that nobody knows how somebody will react in such a high stress situation until it happens. I told a story on here before about a time two men attempted to rob me at knifepoint when I was walking home alone at night. I was a single parent and I had a one year old little boy at home with a sitter. I had a single 20 dollar bill in my bag. Two men, two large stiletto knives, dark street with no houses on the long section I was on, baby at home - the logical answer was clearly to give them the 20 dollars. What I did instead was start swearing at them. &#8220;I don&#8217;t have any ****ing money. **** off! **** you!&#8221; They were walking away from me now, turning a corner probably 15 feet away, and I&#8217;m still snarling at them and mocking them! I just did not stop talking and pushing. One guy kind of wheeled around and lunged toward me with the knife to scare me, and that finally snapped me out of the awful, crazy auto pilot I was on. I walked the rest of the way home terrified, both of what had happened and of my own reaction.

There was no calculating, no reasoned sense of self-preservation - it was 100% reaction, and my fear bubbled up and out as a kind of insane anger. All it might have taken was for Tim to instinctively grab for the gun somebody suddenly pulled on him to turn that situation horribly wrong.

What you are describing is our innate "fight or flight" instincts. It's how our nervous system reacts to being in a dangerous or threatening situation, activating these instincts. And, you are right, there is no way to know which manner any one person will respond: fighting or fleeing. It's highly individualized and somewhat random.

With that being said, I still don't know if I buy the "car robbery gone wrong" theory. By this point he has already (allegedly...) killed LB and WM, so I'm inclined to believe that murder was part of the plan. JMO though.

Edit to add: I'm also very sorry to hear that happened to you.