Babcock Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #5

[Stumper]

IMO CN isn't "in love" with DM- I think his demented actions simply turn her on as much as being a "woman of intrigue" does. From what I see of DM's texts and letters, she may have very well manipulated DM into murdering LB. Sick, sick people. The letters setting up a plan around LB overdosing were prior to him being charged with LB's murder, so CN knew that DM had "hurt" LB and "made her go away"- she knew that LB was dead and didn't seem to be too concerned about going to LE about it. IMHO, CN gets off on sick stuff thus her name "Kinks".

Wow! Very insightful. You nailed it IMO

 

[lclabtech]

I keep trying to put myself in the shoes of a hypothetical MS who was not involved in this plan...

... so here’s this guy who I love “like a brother” and live with but is always coming up with harebrained schemes, many of which involve illegal activities but nothing to this point that makes me think he’ll murder anyone. Okay fine. And friend tells me he’s getting an incinerator. And that it’s for garbage. Oh no wait, I’m texting him about bones and testing it out on dogs, so if you’re still giving me the benefit of doubt maybe I’m just a creep that hurts animals but as far as I know, no murder involved! And I help this guy get in touch with a guy who sells guns who I know from elementary school. But if you’re still giving me the benefit of the doubt, maybe he needs it to kill said dog or those pesky deer (handgun? Interesting choice. But I don’t question it in this hypothetical) on his property...

Then at some point this friend tells me he killed a girl. And none of my texts after that point reveal any surprise, discomfort or worry. Oh you rolled your first spliff, friend who I had no idea was going to murder anyone? Cool. How is the spliff? No it’s okay, my gf can just wait in the car while we’re talking to that girl, if you know what I mean. And then I’ll make a rap for this.

He helped test the incinerator, he hooked him up with a “gun guy”, and at no point when his buddy murdered someone did he express any surprise, it was just casually talked about like it was just one more mission.

 

[Stumper]

I doubt LE cared that Rabbit missed her little Lamb.

Lol😂 That quote really made me laugh! Thank you. I remember thinking to myself when I first saw that “Who talks like that to a roughly 25 year old man.. 😶😳”

It’s actually pretty creepy when you stop to think it through

 

[LibTech]

I was reading the letters that were released during the TB trial and noticed that DM mentions that he watched video statements from AM and others. Videos from other high profile cases are available on YouTube, such as the Colonel Williams interrogation. DM's trial for the murder of his father will probably hold things up, but when that trial is over, could we expect these items to be released to the public?

 

[musicaljoke]

I think the majority of people here know exactly what Smich is all about and what he probably did or didn't do. However, they are not looking at this case with an unbiased opinion and basing that opinion on the evidence that has only been presented in this case. At this point I have little doubt that Smich will be found not guilty, not because he is, but because there just isn't the evidence to prove it.

I hope that you are wrong, but fear that you may be right. We can be certain that the jury will out for a while, and it won't be because they are discussing DM.

 

[LibTech]

Who has personal visits is a city jail? I personally don’t know of anyone that has. My ex, my daughters father was in jail and I/we had to see him through glass and on a phone and that was for theft charge. That only happens in the movies or I believe when they go to the Pen but I could be wrong!!

In DM's letters, he mentions that his visits are behind glass. I'd have to search for the exact reference, but I believe that was in regards to his mother. So if that's the case, then it was either the lawyer or someone on the inside that was the carrier.

 

[Stumper]

IMO, you're correct- DM didn't give a care about any woman, however, "Kinks" proved herself to be different; she was a manipulating player as well-calling Boris in for a little fling just a week or so before DM killed LB . She told DM how warm and fuzzy it made her feel when he talked about hurting LB and making the "herpes" go away for good. She texts DM "Have fun doing big things" around 10 pm the night he murdered LB. IMHO, CN will just pull a KH and change her name- she'll disappear into a new identity. I can't say that she was just a young woman in love with a bad guy. MOO

Again I agree totally. She was turned on by his depravity which in turn was a massive turn on for him.

Even seeing the most beautiful sunset ever seen is an empty experience if you have no one to share it with..

I think CN provided an approving audience to his acts of “bold greatness above the capibilities of normal lesser men” and gave him the adoration and sexual submission he craved deeply in return

I mean what’s really the point in being D.Man/Dellen the Fellon if there is no one able to admire his work. In some ways I think MS served a similar function

 

[LN33]

In DM's letters, he mentions that his visits are behind glass. I'd have to search for the exact reference, but I believe that was in regards to his mother. So if that's the case, then it was either the lawyer or someone on the inside that was the carrier.

https://www.thespec.com/news-story/...20-more-things-the-bosma-jury-was-never-told/

Point 12 in this article in the Spectator seemed to say that the letters were primarily relayed through MB.

 

[JuneBug67]

I keep trying to put myself in the shoes of a hypothetical MS who was not involved in this plan...

... so here’s this guy who I love “like a brother” and live with but is always coming up with harebrained schemes, many of which involve illegal activities but nothing to this point that makes me think he’ll murder anyone. Okay fine. And friend tells me he’s getting an incinerator. And that it’s for garbage. Oh no wait, I’m texting him about bones and testing it out on dogs, so if you’re still giving me the benefit of doubt maybe I’m just a creep that hurts animals but as far as I know, no murder involved! And I help this guy get in touch with a guy who sells guns who I know from elementary school. But if you’re still giving me the benefit of the doubt, maybe he needs it to kill said dog or those pesky deer (handgun? Interesting choice. But I don’t question it in this hypothetical) on his property...

Then at some point this friend tells me he killed a girl. And none of my texts after that point reveal any surprise, discomfort or worry. Oh you rolled your first spliff, friend who I had no idea was going to murder anyone? Cool. How is the spliff? No it’s okay, my gf can just wait in the car while we’re talking to that girl, if you know what I mean. And then I’ll make a rap for this.

He helped test the incinerator, he hooked him up with a “gun guy”, and at no point when his buddy murdered someone did he express any surprise, it was just casually talked about like it was just one more mission.

Here's how I'd spin a hypothetical MS who was not involved in this plan:

...so here's this guy that I love like a brother and he feels like my ticket to the good life without the kind of work I would have to do in the real world. He's got big dreams and bad schemes and if we're going to go to next level stuff I can contribute by hooking him up with Ish. And is he hot to hook up with Ish! He hits me up four times between January 27 and January 31, and by the 31st he's really frustrated - "I'm under pressure , ****'s gotta start happening. wtf's up with Isho? tell that guy to text me already." All good. He had the first of the guns we'd score in his hand by Feb. 10. Good times are coming. Next level ****. Life rolls on for few months and we meet at titty bars makin' big plans and doing stuff, mission here and mission there. There's a lot of drugs. Come late May he makes a big move cause we're going places where we might need to disappear people, maybe for money, maybe for an inheritance, maybe maybe maybe. July 3rd rolls around and I roll out of bed in the middle of the afternoon like most days, and start my daily scrounge for food, for beer for dope. My hooks me up with some Heini and a couple of subs by 6:30 and I'm chillin with Marlena and Dell's out on a mission of some kind. I'm out for a smoke by the pool and I see he's got a chick over so I lay low and waste the night away in the basement with Marlena, drinking beer and having sex and listening to Pocket Full of Stones on repeat and then later I hit the vapes - that knocked me on my for a while but I came to my senses and texted my to see if he was around so we could run wars or hang out or something, but he's down for the night. I read his last text from a few hours ago around 9 am and hit him back with an "aight" before I head off to bed. That brought him downstairs and he told me the craziest **** had gone down. Un-f-ing-believable. That chick I saw last night is gone. Crazy. Dell's gonna deal though, and I'm so tired and I just need to crash. Whatever ever he needs me to do to help I'm down. He's my . Well, eventually we dispose of her in Dell's new incinerator. Took a while to get it going, but we hung in with the wait 'cause Dell's got this body to deal with now and it's the perfect chance to test it. I didn't really know what to expect, but it was intense. I wrote a rap about it right away, how I saw her that night, how she ended up. Intense.

 

[JuneBug67]

https://www.thespec.com/news-story/...20-more-things-the-bosma-jury-was-never-told/

Point 12 in this article in the Spectator seemed to say that the letters were primarily relayed through MB.

She might have been the primary relay to CN - but not the primary relay from or to DM.

 

[lclabtech]

Here's how I'd spin a hypothetical MS who was not involved in this plan:

...so here's this guy that I love like a brother and he feels like my ticket to the good life without the kind of work I would have to do in the real world. He's got big dreams and bad schemes and if we're going to go to next level stuff I can contribute by hooking him up with Ish. And is he hot to hook up with Ish! He hits me up four times between January 27 and January 31, and by the 31st he's really frustrated - "I'm under pressure , ****'s gotta start happening. wtf's up with Isho? tell that guy to text me already." All good. He had the first of the guns we'd score in his hand by Feb. 10. Good times are coming. Next level ****. Life rolls on for few months and we meet at titty bars makin' big plans and doing stuff, mission here and mission there. There's a lot of drugs. Come late May he makes a big move cause we're going places where we might need to disappear people, maybe for money, maybe for an inheritance, maybe maybe maybe. July 3rd rolls around and I roll out of bed in the middle of the afternoon like most days, and start my daily scrounge for food, for beer for dope. My hooks me up with some Heini and a couple of subs by 6:30 and I'm chillin with Marlena and Dell's out on a mission of some kind. I'm out for a smoke by the pool and I see he's got a chick over so I lay low and waste the night away in the basement with Marlena, drinking beer and having sex and listening to Pocket Full of Stones on repeat and then later I hit the vapes - that knocked me on my for a while but I came to my senses and texted my to see if he was around so we could run wars or hang out or something, but he's down for the night. I read his last text from a few hours ago around 9 am and hit him back with an "aight" before I head off to bed. That brought him downstairs and he told me the craziest **** had gone down. Un-f-ing-believable. That chick I saw last night is gone. Crazy. Dell's gonna deal though, and I'm so tired and I just need to crash. Whatever ever he needs me to do to help I'm down. He's my . Well, eventually we dispose of her in Dell's new incinerator. Took a while to get it going, but we hung in with the wait 'cause Dell's got this body to deal with now and it's the perfect chance to test it. I didn't really know what to expect, but it was intense. I wrote a rap about it right away, how I saw her that night, how she ended up. Intense.

If I thought he knew the plan was to “disappear people” and helped DM with an incinerator and set him up with a gun guy in order to do so, I’d have no problem sending him away for M1, even if he didn’t know it was going to be Laura.

Edited to add: ... good work on the phrasing because it really does sound like MS, ha.

 

[MsSherlock]

Here's how I'd spin a hypothetical MS who was not involved in this plan:

...so here's this guy that I love like a brother and he feels like my ticket to the good life without the kind of work I would have to do in the real world. He's got big dreams and bad schemes and if we're going to go to next level stuff I can contribute by hooking him up with Ish. And is he hot to hook up with Ish! He hits me up four times between January 27 and January 31, and by the 31st he's really frustrated - "I'm under pressure , ****'s gotta start happening. wtf's up with Isho? tell that guy to text me already." All good. He had the first of the guns we'd score in his hand by Feb. 10. Good times are coming. Next level ****. Life rolls on for few months and we meet at titty bars makin' big plans and doing stuff, mission here and mission there. There's a lot of drugs. Come late May he makes a big move cause we're going places where we might need to disappear people, maybe for money, maybe for an inheritance, maybe maybe maybe. July 3rd rolls around and I roll out of bed in the middle of the afternoon like most days, and start my daily scrounge for food, for beer for dope. My hooks me up with some Heini and a couple of subs by 6:30 and I'm chillin with Marlena and Dell's out on a mission of some kind. I'm out for a smoke by the pool and I see he's got a chick over so I lay low and waste the night away in the basement with Marlena, drinking beer and having sex and listening to Pocket Full of Stones on repeat and then later I hit the vapes - that knocked me on my for a while but I came to my senses and texted my to see if he was around so we could run wars or hang out or something, but he's down for the night. I read his last text from a few hours ago around 9 am and hit him back with an "aight" before I head off to bed. That brought him downstairs and he told me the craziest **** had gone down. Un-f-ing-believable. That chick I saw last night is gone. Crazy. Dell's gonna deal though, and I'm so tired and I just need to crash. Whatever ever he needs me to do to help I'm down. He's my . Well, eventually we dispose of her in Dell's new incinerator. Took a while to get it going, but we hung in with the wait 'cause Dell's got this body to deal with now and it's the perfect chance to test it. I didn't really know what to expect, but it was intense. I wrote a rap about it right away, how I saw her that night, how she ended up. Intense.

That almost reads like MS could have written it! There's one interesting text that makes me think there had been a lot of conversation between DM & MS not captured via text messages. That's the one on July 3rd that where DM tells MS not to be out front when he gets back. If MS was playing a benign role, why didn't DM want him visible when he arrived back to Maple Gate with LB?

 

[JuneBug67]

If I thought he knew the plan was to “disappear people” and helped DM with an incinerator and set him up with a gun guy in order to do so, I’d have no problem sending him away for M1, even if he didn’t know it was going to be Laura.

And that may be what the law is exactly. Lots have noted how key the judge's charge will be in this case.

But, there was a ton of parallel stuff going on over those months and there is always the possibility that it was meant to be a pure money making venture in the body disposal for hire. A lot of his schemes just fizzled out or crashed with DM at the wheel, and he would abandon them for a time and then wander back. There really is a possibility that the incinerator ultimately just happened to be there (or almost there) when he screwed something up or did something reckless and impulsive.

 

[Sillybilly]

Broken quotes are happening far too often and are time consuming for Mods to repair. Everyone has been here long enough to know to use the "Reply with Quote" feature, and also know what a broken quote looks like.

Mods aren't a steno pool. If you can't be bothered to preview and fix your own post, you run the risk your entire post will be removed and all responses to it.

Please be courteous, folks.

 

[JuneBug67]

That almost reads like MS could have written it! There's one interesting text that makes me think there had been a lot of conversation between DM & MS not captured via text messages. That's the one on July 3rd that where DM tells MS not to be out front when he gets back. If MS was playing a benign role, why didn't DM want him visible when he arrived back to Maple Gate with LB?

I wrote a semi tongue-in-cheek post about what that text could have meant here:

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/sh...-Weekend-Discussion-4&p=13765283#post13765283

Also, somebody else pointed out that it could have been DM not wanting Smich to see Laura, rather than the other way around. And you know, it could have been. Or it could have been some totally unrelated thing that we're misinterpreting or that had nothing to do with nothing.

 

[Stumper]

I'm not so sure about that. First, there are still things to come, and key among those things will be the judge's charge to the jury. Beyond that, you can see right here how minds work very differently and parse facts accordingly. There are many people here who in listing the evidence against Smich for M1 cite his actions on the 23rd - the incineration, the photographs etc. From a logical point of view this just doesn't hang together. It's clear that based on pure logic that this act disconnected from the original events by three weeks and comprised of completely different actions does not and cannot in fact support proof of the completely distinct act of murder. It's a bit like saying that your buddy that comes by at the end of the month to give you a ride with your haul from a bank robbery three weeks ago is the getaway driver. No, he's not. You can do act B and have had nothing to do with act A. So it's not purely logical thinking people are using re Smich on the example of his role in the incineration, but it is intuitive thinking. Their experience and gut tells them that a guy who does what he did on the 23rd, and who was in on the shopping and the testing, and who was there the night Laura died, is up to his ears in the whole thing. Both are valid lines of thought. Some truths are better revealed through cold, linear logic and others are better revealed through less linear, intuitive thinking. The questions is, what kind of problem is this? And what is the thinking style of any given individual on the jury? Experienced attorneys have learned to never guess what a jury is thinking, and we would probably be smart to remember to remind ourselves of that. Often!

Sorry Andreww and JuneBug67, I can see where you are both coming from but I can’t concede that a not guilty verdict for MS is based on logic and Guilty is based on emotion/intuition.

I think that it is a matter of micro logic’s vs macro logic.

You two are focused on the micro logic. That SM can not be proven to have known LB was the particular victim, and that it can’t be proven he was hands on involved in her actual death. (neither can be proven for DM either btw.. although there is slightly more circumstantial evidence against him)

The Macro logic looks at his involvement and behaviour before, during and after the murder and (without rehashing all the details for the hundredth time) the evidence logically show a man planning a murder, being present while a murder was committed, cheerfully cleaning up from a murder then proudly bragging in detail about that same murder. I see no other logical interpretation for the sum of his actions over the months before and after July 3/4 of that year.

As with the TB murder it does not matter legally which of them actually made the kill or who the victim ended up being if the murder and incineration of a undetermined person was a planned event by both.

 

[Typhoo1961]

I was reading the letters that were released during the TB trial and noticed that DM mentions that he watched video statements from AM and others. Videos from other high profile cases are available on YouTube, such as the Colonel Williams interrogation. DM's trial for the murder of his father will probably hold things up, but when that trial is over, could we expect these items to be released to the public?

I hope so. I would really like to see DM's interrogation.

 

[lclabtech]

Sorry Andreww and JuneBug67, I can see where you are both coming from but I can’t concede that a not guilty verdict for MS is based on logic and Guilty is based on emotion/intuition.

I think that it is a matter of micro logic’s vs macro logic.

You two are focused on the micro logic. That SM can not be proven to have known LB was the particular victim, and that it can’t be proven he was hands on involved in her actual death. (neither can be proven for DM either btw.. although there is slightly more circumstantial evidence against him)

The Macro logic looks at his involvement and behaviour before and after the murder and without rehashing the detail for the hundredth time logically shows a man planning a murder cleaning up from a murder and proudly bragging in detail about that same murder. I see no other logical beyond reasonable doubt interpretation for the sum of his actions over the months before and after July 3/4 of that year. As with the TB murder it does not matter legally which of them actually made the kill or who the victim ended up being if the murder and incineration of a undetermined person was a planned event by both.

I agree with this. I can come up with logical arguments for individual pieces but as soon as I try to put the whole puzzle together it requires too many leaps...

 

[EspressoBean]

Regarding jail visits, DM's visits would have been what is considered "closed" visits which means from behind glass. He would have been considered in remand custody, since he had not yet been charged and sentenced and these visits were closed.
Lawyers would have access to open visits - direct contact.

 

[NoodlesMcgee]

Here's how I'd spin a hypothetical MS who was not involved in this plan:

...so here's this guy that I love like a brother and he feels like my ticket to the good life without the kind of work I would have to do in the real world. He's got big dreams and bad schemes and if we're going to go to next level stuff I can contribute by hooking him up with Ish. And is he hot to hook up with Ish! He hits me up four times between January 27 and January 31, and by the 31st he's really frustrated - "I'm under pressure , ****'s gotta start happening. wtf's up with Isho? tell that guy to text me already." All good. He had the first of the guns we'd score in his hand by Feb. 10. Good times are coming. Next level ****. Life rolls on for few months and we meet at titty bars makin' big plans and doing stuff, mission here and mission there. There's a lot of drugs. Come late May he makes a big move cause we're going places where we might need to disappear people, maybe for money, maybe for an inheritance, maybe maybe maybe. July 3rd rolls around and I roll out of bed in the middle of the afternoon like most days, and start my daily scrounge for food, for beer for dope. My hooks me up with some Heini and a couple of subs by 6:30 and I'm chillin with Marlena and Dell's out on a mission of some kind. I'm out for a smoke by the pool and I see he's got a chick over so I lay low and waste the night away in the basement with Marlena, drinking beer and having sex and listening to Pocket Full of Stones on repeat and then later I hit the vapes - that knocked me on my for a while but I came to my senses and texted my to see if he was around so we could run wars or hang out or something, but he's down for the night. I read his last text from a few hours ago around 9 am and hit him back with an "aight" before I head off to bed. That brought him downstairs and he told me the craziest **** had gone down. Un-f-ing-believable. That chick I saw last night is gone. Crazy. Dell's gonna deal though, and I'm so tired and I just need to crash. Whatever ever he needs me to do to help I'm down. He's my . Well, eventually we dispose of her in Dell's new incinerator. Took a while to get it going, but we hung in with the wait 'cause Dell's got this body to deal with now and it's the perfect chance to test it. I didn't really know what to expect, but it was intense. I wrote a rap about it right away, how I saw her that night, how she ended up. Intense.

If that is the story he's going with, he'd be smart to not testify because it is isn't going to get him a non guilty verdict as it's unbelievable even before he gets cross examined.

He'd be better off claiming ignorance of the crime until much later so he can just say I don't remember that night instead of some wildly detailed story that he made no attempt to have corroborated when MM was on the stand.

And he still has to explain why the one kid said he told him he killed a girl.