Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #4

[SnooperDuper]

I would guess that even though millard was being held, he was free to send mail to whomever he wished (barring the DNC list). I doubt whether at that point LE would be able to read his mail or read anything that he gave to his attorneys, or even his bookkeeper for that matter. Fact is CN got busted with a stack of letters, so it couldn't have been that difficult.

Writing in 2013, while he’s still being actively investigated for the murders of Babcock and his father, he’s surprised to learn that his correspondence and visits are monitored by prison officials. After one of his letters leaks on the internet, he agrees to route his mail back and forth via his lawyer.

http://www.24news.ca/the-news/canad...rn-to-world-of-fast-cars-and-exotic-adventure

He was free to send mail, but only communication with his lawyer would be protected.

Makes you wonder if the now-absent ex-lawyer DP helped DM move some letters.

 

[andreww]

Welcome!
To your point, I think LW is playing dumb and not very well. I also think MB is trying to keep a low profile and was more involved or knew more than letting on. IN FACT, I think most of the people surrounding adam were probably a little shady. I guess they were fine with turning a blind eye to shady practices to line their own pocket books.
For me the big picture is that WM got the loan to get things for the business, likely using the house as collateral then DM killed him for the money <modsnip>. I suspect LB either knew too much or just got irritating and the TB was for the truck so they could go racing. I imagine DM was asset rich and cash poor and that's why he was stealing trucks. I also think he had done this before and had gotten away with it. I think that's the reason he was so lazy covering up TB. Obviously this is all MOO.

<modsnip> She mistakenly exaggerated the race entry fee making millard look bad, and you guys chastising her for being stupid. She was brought in for one purpose, to say that at the time Millard had a cash flow problem and at the same time, a looming big expense for that years race. Mission accomplished, everything else is beyond her scope IMO.

As for MB I haven't seen anything to indicate that she wasn't drawing that $60k salary for some time. No mention at all that this was a new arrangement. This was more than likely part of her divorce settlement which probably included her house and alimony to boot. I've never seen anything to say that she had a hand in the business or that she ever showed any interest in it.

 

[andreww]

http://www.24news.ca/the-news/canad...rn-to-world-of-fast-cars-and-exotic-adventure

He was free to send mail, but only communication with his lawyer would be protected.

Makes you wonder if the now-absent ex-lawyer DP helped DM move some letters.

How else would he? But don't be quick to blame DP, letters could have been enclosed in an envelope addressed to MB for all we know.

 

[andreww]

Welcome brightii :welcome:

Thanks for the compliments on behalf of all us old WS'ers and our fabulous new recruits. As you've indicated, the wealth of knowledge here by putting our collective brains together is outstanding.

As a former accounting clerk for a major corportation, I too was baffled by what I was "hearing" during that testimony. I think it became pretty apparent by day 2 what "team" the witness was playing for.

So jump right in...the water's fine. Looking forward to your input.

MOO

Sorry, what did LW say that was so horrible? That she wasn't qualified? Did you want her to lie? Because that wouldn't have turned out well. She was being baited and she didn't bite IMO.

And she wasn't an accountant, she was a bookkeeper. The financial wellbeing of MA was not her concern. And who knows, maybe at some point she pointed out these issues to Millard?

 

[brightii]

Hi Tiggertoo and thanks for the lovely welcome! :happydance:

I agree that LW did not come across as credible on the stand from the information I have read. Also, her demeanor when she left court was curious to me, as she tried to avoid being caught on camera. Even how casually she dressed for an appearance in court, I found odd. Maybe I'm just old-fashioned, but if I had to appear in court in the capacity of spokesperson for my business, I would have dressed up in a suit.

Until we hear directly from MB, I am reserving judgment on what her involvement may be in this case. I suspect as a mother she is doing what many moms do, supporting her son and believing in DM's innocence. A mother's love is powerful and often blind to an offspring's failings, IMO. She may just be protecting his interests and her own. Time will tell.

I am also very curious about the Lucas Bate phone and that someone came up with an explanation for it on Twitter as an anagram "casual bet". IMO, it spells out a possible motive, and as despicable as that is, to me that potential motive speaks volumes, IMO.

Also, who is adam? I have no idea.

All MOO.

Welcome!
To your point, I think LW is playing dumb and not very well. I also think MB is trying to keep a low profile and was more involved or knew more than letting on. IN FACT, I think most of the people surrounding adam were probably a little shady. I guess they were fine with turning a blind eye to shady practices to line their own pocket books.
For me the big picture is that WM got the loan to get things for the business, likely using the house as collateral then DM killed him for the money <modsnip>. I suspect LB either knew too much or just got irritating and the TB was for the truck so they could go racing. I imagine DM was asset rich and cash poor and that's why he was stealing trucks. I also think he had done this before and had gotten away with it. I think that's the reason he was so lazy covering up TB. Obviously this is all MOO.

 

[ABro]

My point of bringing it up was that, like Snooper Dooper I think? said, he was probably long gone by the time of the murder. But it appears his name was put on the website with a fancy title, and uploaded to the internet, AFTER DM was arrested? I really don't think the Crown will get bogged down with all these details, the business practices of MA were really for the bank and the CRA to sort out after the fact. Looks like the bank took care of their business with the company. I wonder about the CRA? While it interesting to speculate on, pretty sure we won't be seeing any of this in the actual trial. They have much bigger fish to fry.

MOO

This is not the case. The wayback machine tends to crawl and archive web pages on the days they get high traffic. The MIllardair web page would have been getting high traffic due to the arrest of DM. As a result it was crawled and archived on May 12. Before that the site likely attracted few if any visitors and was pretty much ignored by the crawler bots. It was likely in existence for a year or two before.

 

[brightii]

Thank you Kamille! :loveyou: I love your posts and find myself in agreement with much of what you have to say! You're amazing and all the posters help me to think outside the box. Thank you again!!!

All MOO. (I just love writing that!) lol

Welcome brightii :welcome:

Thanks for the compliments on behalf of all us old WS'ers and our fabulous new recruits. As you've indicated, the wealth of knowledge here by putting our collective brains together is outstanding.

As a former accounting clerk for a major corportation, I too was baffled by what I was "hearing" during that testimony. I think it became pretty apparent by day 2 what "team" the witness was playing for.

So jump right in...the water's fine. Looking forward to your input.

MOO

 

[Kamille]

Sorry, what did LW say that was so horrible? That she wasn't qualified? Did you want her to lie? Because that wouldn't have turned out well. She was being baited and she didn't bite IMO.

And she wasn't an accountant, she was a bookkeeper. The financial wellbeing of MA was not her concern. And who knows, maybe at some point she pointed out these issues to Millard?

I was talking about the inconsistency in her statements. I picked out a selection of them in the last thread. Not sure if you saw them? After that there is a long discussion about her actions in the courtroom on both days by a poster who was there. Starts at post #117 here...
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?301512-Bosma-Murder-Trial-02-25-16-Day-15/page8

In a nutshell, her statement to LE back on May 14th, 2013 appeared to be that she knew the money was tight, had access to the bank balance and she knew DM was planning to race in Baja that month. She gave LE figures about what it was expected to cost him based on information she believed at the time. Claims to have been in on a conversation regarding it. LE would have been very specific with her information, not just taking it all at face value and making sure she was sincere in her statements and not just "gossiping" IMO.

She also would have been the one to allocate the incinerator in the books and by looking at the invoice, there seemed to be some discrepancy regarding which account to apply it to, not to mention that DM had to request a second copy of the invoice from the distributor because he lost the first one. And that transaction had two different entries, the Visa downpayment and the balance to be paid by cheque. No idea what she may have told LE about that whole transaction back in 2013 but 3 years later she claims "nothing stood out about it". Which put them into a legal argument that seemed to end all talk of the incinerator invoice?

So, fast forward 3 years and she's having to be reminded of her statements and it's like pulling teeth for the Crown to get a straight answer out of her. For the defense, she's clear as a bell stating she now appears to have known nothing and her statements to LE 3 years ago were based on the fact that she knew nothing?

IMO, she was not a very sincere witness based on what I "heard" through the tweets and in subsequent conversation on the board with a poster who was in the courtroom. Bookkeepers are usually very astute in what they are doing. It's important to the job. And the companies they work for count on that.

MOO

 

[Kamille]

This is not the case. The wayback machine tends to crawl and archive web pages on the days they get high traffic. The MIllardair web page would have been getting high traffic due to the arrest of DM. As a result it was crawled and archived on May 12. Before that the site likely attracted few if any visitors and was pretty much ignored by the crawler bots. It was likely in existence for a year or two before.

Ah...thanks ABro. That makes sense. So it looks like both WM and DM relied on SS to set up some type of domain registration for them back in June 2012? And it appears that Charlie the IT guy actually didn't get involved with it until Feb 2013?

TIA

 

[MsSherlock]

As for MB I haven't seen anything to indicate that she wasn't drawing that $60k salary for some time. No mention at all that this was a new arrangement. This was more than likely part of her divorce settlement which probably included her house and alimony to boot. I've never seen anything to say that she had a hand in the business or that she ever showed any interest in it.

Oh- but there was one little thing indicating that she wasn't on the payroll prior.

"Williams told the jury that there were 14 employees at the time, but were all let go when Dellen took over &#8212; except for one. Shane Schlatman stayed on to watch over the hangar. The jury had already heard that he was Millard&#8217;s most trusted employees."

http://www.900chml.com/2016/02/24/jury-hears-details-of-smich-arrest-and-millardair-financials/

if MB was on the payroll at that time, she would have said "2" . MB and SS but she didn't. Or was absolutely everything this woman said altered to the point she couldn't remember truth from fiction? After all, she spoke with MB's frequently and took time out of her life to visit one of her clients, DM, in jail- 5 or 6 times!!
I was a bit shocked to see that MB had been put on the Millardair payroll-

"No money was coming into MillardAir. Lisa Williams testified that while Dellen wrote all the cheques, he had no occupation at the hangar; neither did his mother, Madeleine Burns, who was also on the payroll"
http://www.900chml.com/2016/02/24/jury-hears-details-of-smich-arrest-and-millardair-financials/


There is no indication that MB had any involvement in the Hangar- it's rumoured that WM had moved on with his life and had met someone who he intended to marry. IMO, it's pretty far fetched to think that WM, not only provided his unqualified son with a 125K a year job and CEO title, that was also somehow paying his ex-wife of 10+ years 5K a month just for the heck of it? While he had to borrow money to complete his business venture? IMO MB's was not on the payroll when WM was alive. MOO

 

[brightii]

Sorry, what did LW say that was so horrible? That she wasn't qualified? Did you want her to lie? Because that wouldn't have turned out well. She was being baited and she didn't bite IMO.

And she wasn't an accountant, she was a bookkeeper. The financial wellbeing of MA was not her concern. And who knows, maybe at some point she pointed out these issues to Millard?

Hi andreww: IMO a bookkeeper has incredible access to information and insight about a company's financial operations. They input every transaction, see what funds are available or lacking, see all sources of income and all expenses against that income. They handle all credit card transactions as well. Everything must ultimately be reconciled to make sense.

If LW handled the company's bank account and operating line of credit (if they had one) she would have or should have a good idea of what funds were available and what could be paid or not paid. For instance, from the monies in the bank account she would pay payroll. If things were tight, very tight, as she stated, that indicates to me that as fast as money was coming in, it was going out. And just where was the money coming from if there was no business? If a deposit was made into the company bank account she would have or should have been privy to the source of that money in order to enter it into the Quick Books system, IMO.

It does not come across as plausible to me that LW would make a mistake of an amount of $18,000 for the Baja entrance fee if it was in fact only $1,800. She works with figures for a living and that is an extraordinary difference that should not be minimized. I wonder too why no bank account statements were entered into evidence to support her assessment of the company being very tight, in terms of cash flow.

As for the invoice for the incinerator not raising any red flags for her, I have no answer, but considering that Tim Bosma's body was later burned in that horrid machine, one might expect her to be less flippant in her response to that question. I cannot even imagine if that had been me and I didn't pay much mind at the time to the invoice, that upon learning the ramifications of such an expenditure, I would not be completely and utterly mortified by the thought that I had any association with it.

And also everything Kamille explained better than I, in her post #69. :laughing:

All MOO.

 

[Abitcountry]

Abitcountry, I am wondering if it was mentioned in court how much LW billed for her services? Was it $10.25 per hour or are you being facetious in your post?

I wish I had seen something mentioned about her earnings for the work she performed. I may have just missed it, but I think her billing 10 hours a month for a company that had as she stated no income was probably a minimum amount agreed upon between she and her client, MA. I also think that she would have to file regular reports for payroll, WSIB remittances, HST, etc. whether the company had income or not.

All MOO.

Yes I was being 100% facetious.

IMO...her dismal performance as a bookeeper is surpassed only by her performance as an actress on the stand this week.
I got the sense she was deliberately working to create the image of herself as being this humble bumpkin who just totalled the figures...minded her business...didn't know what was going on...and put in a few hours a month ....and that was it.
Au contraire--
I think she what she has gleaned about bookkeeping they don't teach you at college...she learned it doing the books for the company she owns and the the one she shares with Charles.
Those are just the skills that a business man like DM would have found attractive and would have been willing to pay a whole lot more than minimum wage for.
And the trips to visit DM in Barton Street Detention.....checking on his welfare and bringing him cookies--Oh Scottie !! Beam me up!!:ufo:

 

[andreww]

Oh- but there was one little thing indicating that she wasn't on the payroll prior.

"Williams told the jury that there were 14 employees at the time, but were all let go when Dellen took over &#8212; except for one. Shane Schlatman stayed on to watch over the hangar. The jury had already heard that he was Millard&#8217;s most trusted employees."

http://www.900chml.com/2016/02/24/jury-hears-details-of-smich-arrest-and-millardair-financials/

if MB was on the payroll at that time, she would have said "2" . MB and SS but she didn't. Or was absolutely everything this woman said altered to the point she couldn't remember truth from fiction? After all, she spoke with MB's frequently and took time out of her life to visit one of her clients, DM, in jail- 5 or 6 times!!
I was a bit shocked to see that MB had been put on the Millardair payroll-

"No money was coming into MillardAir. Lisa Williams testified that while Dellen wrote all the cheques, he had no occupation at the hangar; neither did his mother, Madeleine Burns, who was also on the payroll"
http://www.900chml.com/2016/02/24/jury-hears-details-of-smich-arrest-and-millardair-financials/


There is no indication that MB had any involvement in the Hangar- it's rumoured that WM had moved on with his life and had met someone who he intended to marry. IMO, it's pretty far fetched to think that WM, not only provided his unqualified son with a 125K a year job and CEO title, that was also somehow paying his ex-wife of 10+ years 5K a month just for the heck of it? While he had to borrow money to complete his business venture? IMO MB's was not on the payroll when WM was alive. MOO

No. MB wasn't a paid employee and she didn't have a job function. Neither did Dellon. My your reasoning, she should have said 3. Dellon an MB did not have job titles, they simply drew salaries. SS was the only "Employee" drawing a salary.

 

[SnooperDuper]

Oh- but there was one little thing indicating that she wasn't on the payroll prior.

"Williams told the jury that there were 14 employees at the time, but were all let go when Dellen took over &#8212; except for one. Shane Schlatman stayed on to watch over the hangar. The jury had already heard that he was Millard&#8217;s most trusted employees."

http://www.900chml.com/2016/02/24/jury-hears-details-of-smich-arrest-and-millardair-financials/

if MB was on the payroll at that time, she would have said "2" . MB and SS but she didn't. Or was absolutely everything this woman said altered to the point she couldn't remember truth from fiction? After all, she spoke with MB's frequently and took time out of her life to visit one of her clients, DM, in jail- 5 or 6 times!!
I was a bit shocked to see that MB had been put on the Millardair payroll-

"No money was coming into MillardAir. Lisa Williams testified that while Dellen wrote all the cheques, he had no occupation at the hangar; neither did his mother, Madeleine Burns, who was also on the payroll"
http://www.900chml.com/2016/02/24/jury-hears-details-of-smich-arrest-and-millardair-financials/


There is no indication that MB had any involvement in the Hangar- it's rumoured that WM had moved on with his life and had met someone who he intended to marry. IMO, it's pretty far fetched to think that WM, not only provided his unqualified son with a 125K a year job and CEO title, that was also somehow paying his ex-wife of 10+ years 5K a month just for the heck of it? While he had to borrow money to complete his business venture? IMO MB's was not on the payroll when WM was alive. MOO

That's what I think. I tweeted SC to see if she could clarify from what was said in court if MB was on the payroll when WM was alive but she DNR, though she has to other tweets in the past, which I take as meaning she can't answer that one.

I am doing some math from historical info posted here, lots of numbers from you MsSherlock, others from MSM.

WM got $2M for one of the Toronto hangars, but had to pay $600k to demolish the other, so he netted $1.4M to go towards the new project. News reports say the project went wildly over budget, and while the hangar was valued at about $6M, it cost $9.5M to build. Imagine the hangar sucked up the $1.4M and all WM's available cash. Then imagine it went under fire sale in the $5-6 million range.

Then there is the real estate portfolio: CM's home, the Oakville home, Maple Gate, the farm, the Woodbridge condo and the 6-plex. These properties were liquidated for $6.783 million and the bank asked for $3.8 million netting a few thousand over $3 million.

Then there is the bank loan of $3.7 million which I think was used to pay for the latest condo at $710 and all the salaries and DM's vacations and toys.

So DM now has $8-9M liquid from the properties, but the question is how much of that is his, because much was inherited from WM.

Then there are the millions from the bank loan and the challenge is how to extract that money from the company when the M's have already paid off the bank on the property side. It doesn't make sense to use your own money to pay yourself a salary because you are just taking money you already have and taxing the heck out of it. Thus, it is the bank's former money stuck in Millard Air that is paying out salary to MB to dribble out the value of the property they lost.

 

[brightii]

Yes I was being 100% facetious.

IMO...her dismal performance as a book keeper is surpassed only by her performance as an actress on the stand this week.
I got the sense she was deliberately working to create the image of herself as being this humble bumpkin who just totalled the figures...minded her business...didn't know what was going on...and put in a few hours a month ....and that was it.
Au contraire--
I think she what she has gleaned about bookkeeping they don't teach you at college...she learned it doing the books for the company she owns and the the one she shares with Charles.
Those are just the skills that a business man like DM would have found attractive and would have been willing to pay a whole lot more than minimum wage for.
And the trips to visit DM in Barton Street Detention.....checking on his welfare and bringing him cookies--Oh Scottie !! Beam me up!!:ufo:

Hi Abitcountry: I so agree with your take on LW, and thank you for your response.

All MOO.

 

[Ironworker736]

No. MB wasn't a paid employee and she didn't have a job function. Neither did Dellon. My your reasoning, she should have said 3. Dellon an MB did not have job titles, they simply drew salaries. SS was the only "Employee" drawing a salary.

So you have no problem at all with any of this witness's testimony? Sorry, just trying to understand your point.

 

[MsSherlock]

Ah...thanks ABro. That makes sense. So it looks like both WM and DM relied on SS to set up some type of domain registration for them back in June 2012? And it appears that Charlie the IT guy actually didn't get involved with it until Feb 2013?

TIA

This is a snapshot of the activity on www.millardair.ca

http://web.archive.org/web/20130602012935/http://www.millardair.ca/

whois shows that this domain was registered on February 21, 2013. Details of the registration can be found by putting millardair.ca in the search window. Interestingly enough it was "updated" on February 24th, 2016.

http://whois.cira.ca/public

 

[andreww]

Hi andreww: IMO a bookkeeper has incredible access to information and insight about a company's financial operations. They input every transaction, see what funds are available or lacking, see all sources of income and all expenses against that income. They handle all credit card transactions as well. Everything must ultimately be reconciled to make sense.

You know this for a fact? I more get the feeling that she took the incoming invoices, cut the checks, had them signed, then filed the paperwork. Wouldn't cut the mustard at my company, but I know plenty of family owned business that don't want nosy bookkeepers.

If LW handled the company's bank account and operating line of credit (if they had one) she would have or should have a good idea of what funds were available and what could be paid or not paid. For instance, from the monies in the bank account she would pay payroll. If things were tight, very tight, as she stated, that indicates to me that as fast as money was coming in, it was going out. And just where was the money coming from if there was no business? If a deposit was made into the company bank account she would have or should have been privy to the source of that money in order to enter it into the Quick Books system, IMO.

Again, beyond the scope of the witness. She knew the account was empty and she testified to that. She was probably aware that there was no money coming in, but that was not her business. So long as there was enough money in the account to cover the checks she was writing, she was good.

It does not come across as plausible to me that LW would make a mistake of an amount of $18,000 for the Baja entrance fee if it was in fact only $1,800. She works with figures for a living and that is an extraordinary difference that should not be minimized. I wonder too why no bank account statements were entered into evidence to support her assessment of the company being very tight, in terms of cash flow.

She was nervous and out of her element. We all make mistakes.

As for the invoice for the incinerator not raising any red flags for her, I have no answer, but considering that Tim Bosma's body was later burned in that horrid machine, one might expect her to be less flippant in her response to that question. I cannot even imagine if that had been me and I didn't pay much mind at the time to the invoice, that upon learning the ramifications of such an expenditure, I would not be completely and utterly mortified by the thought that I had any association with it.

Thats you. She probably had no idea what the thing even was. So long as the invoice matched the quote and all the authorizations were there, She likely didn't care less.

She works with figures for a living

And you know this how? I believe the defence was about to expose her lacking education when she agreed that she wasn't qualified. LW is probably nothing more than a glorified part time secretary and there is no evidence that she had any kind of financial services business.

 

[ABro]

Ah...thanks ABro. That makes sense. So it looks like both WM and DM relied on SS to set up some type of domain registration for them back in June 2012? And it appears that Charlie the IT guy actually didn't get involved with it until Feb 2013?

TIA

Yes, exactly. SS could have purchased/registered the domain name and then somebody entirely different could have developed the site at any time after that.

 

[andreww]

So you have no problem at all with any of this witness's testimony? Sorry, just trying to understand your point.

I dont. She told the truth. She revealed that the Baja trip was being planned and she confirmed that MA was on thin ice financially. Everything that was expected of her.