Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #6

[billandrew]

It was Tuesday they spoke to Igor.

There are a lot of details that are wrong in the press conference. For example Kavanagh says that the test drivers went to Igor's workplace when they went to his apartment building.

IMO this is absolutely normal. It's very easy to get facts wrong when things are happening all around you. The officers interviewed Igor at his work so you can see where the confusion might stem from.

I always assumed Igor was interviewed on the 7th, but now I'm looking for a source to support that and I'm coming up empty-handed. The reporting of Jackson's testimony isn't clear about it, nor is the reporting of Igor's testimony.

I'm wondering, if Kavanagh was correct and Igor was in fact interviewed on the 9th, would this not fit better with the rest of the investigation's timeline? This is how I imagine it happened:

1. Acquire detailed records for Bate phone on the 9th. (Edit to add: less detailed info was received on the 7th, let's say, since we know some info was acquired then)
2. Contact Igor and interview him on the 9th.
3. Send out a request to other police services for help identifying a male with an ambition tattoo, on the 9th.
4. Hold a press conference on the morning of the 10th pleading for the public's help to identify the male with the tattoo.
5. Peel and Toronto police respond with Millard's identity on the 10th.
6. The police swarm all over Millard on the 10th.

 

[Satchie]

Yep, and it doesn't really matter. The fact is there is no continuity on the tarp, so we will never know. DM and MS may have dropped it off, swapped it out OR was green not orange. Regardless that's not the important issue unless a later witness brings up seizure of an orange tarp or another witness. The main thing is that the U-turn occurred, a witness saw it as did a video camera, and the witness saw the accused individuals return to the hanger and carry something requiring two people to carry, and put in the back of the trailer. That something may or may not have been the seats we can never know only speculate. JMO

I thought the interesting thing about his testimony is that he says he saw 'two young men'. Who was the other one, if it was Smich, where did he come from? I thought it was CN who was helping DM conceal the truck and other evidence that day.

 

[Prairie_dawg]

I have a few questions for truck experts.

1) How long does it take to remove a cap off the back of a pickup? and can it be done with two people or would they require help?

2) Is it customary for 5th wheel users to leave the hitch in the bed while a cap is on?

3) If the 5th wheel hitch has to be added after the cap has been removed, how long does that typically take?

thanks in advance

 

[SnooperDuper]

I always assumed Igor was interviewed on the 7th, but now I'm looking for a source to support that and I'm coming up empty-handed. The reporting of Jackson's testimony isn't clear about it, nor is the reporting of Igor's testimony.

I'm wondering, if Kavanagh was correct and Igor was in fact interviewed on the 9th, would this not fit better with the rest of the investigation's timeline? This is how I imagine it happened:

1. Acquire detailed records for Bate phone on the 9th. (Edit to add: less detailed info was received on the 7th, let's say, since we know some info was acquired then)
2. Contact Igor and interview him on the 9th.
3. Send out a request to other police services for help identifying a male with an ambition tattoo, on the 9th.
4. Hold a press conference on the morning of the 10th pleading for the public's help to identify the male with the tattoo.
5. Peel and Toronto police respond with Millard's identity on the 10th.
6. The police swarm all over Millard on the 10th.

No, I think Le had the tattoo information but chose not to release it because they had enough real leads to work with without bringing in the public.

I think they only announced the tattoo on the 10th for the benefit of DM's associates - to see what they would do next.

 

[Prairie_dawg]

I thought the interesting thing about his testimony is that he says he saw 'two young men'. Who was the other one, if it was Smich, where did he come from? I thought it was CN who was helping DM conceal the truck and other evidence that day.

It has been established that DM dropped off MS and then carried on to Etobicoke to pick up CN then headed to Vaughan

 

[Typhoo1961]

The main thing is that the U-turn occurred, a witness saw it as did a video camera, and the witness saw the accused individuals return to the hanger and carry something requiring two people to carry, and put in the back of the trailer.

Exactly!!

 

[Satchie]

It has been established that DM dropped off MS and then carried on to Etobicoke to pick up CN then headed to Vaughan

Sorry, my error, I see from the timeline that Smich and Millard's phone pings show DM picking up Smich around 1 pm and they went to the farm/hangar. So the eyewitness is confirmation that the two of them loaded the truck into the trailer.

So if DM and MS were both at the hangar/farm the afternoon of the 9th, perhaps they were getting nervous and taking steps to conceal the evidence, prior to any warning from SS about AJ's suspicions.

 

[billandrew]

No, I think Le had the tattoo information but chose not to release it because they had enough real leads to work with without bringing in the public.

I think they only announced the tattoo on the 10th for the benefit of DM's associates - to see what they would do next.

Help me understand your view here. Assume the police interviewed Igor and found out about the tattoo on the 7th. How much time passed before they received the tip that it was Millard? Do you think they had Millard on their radar before the 10th (this would mean Kavanagh was lying at the press conference)? With TB missing, why wouldn't they be all over Millard as soon as they found out?

 

[ABro]

I always assumed Igor was interviewed on the 7th, but now I'm looking for a source to support that and I'm coming up empty-handed. The reporting of Jackson's testimony isn't clear about it, nor is the reporting of Igor's testimony.

I'm wondering, if Kavanagh was correct and Igor was in fact interviewed on the 9th, would this not fit better with the rest of the investigation's timeline? This is how I imagine it happened:

1. Acquire detailed records for Bate phone on the 9th. (Edit to add: less detailed info was received on the 7th, let's say, since we know some info was acquired then)
2. Contact Igor and interview him on the 9th.
3. Send out a request to other police services for help identifying a male with an ambition tattoo, on the 9th.
4. Hold a press conference on the morning of the 10th pleading for the public's help to identify the male with the tattoo.
5. Peel and Toronto police respond with Millard's identity on the 10th.
6. The police swarm all over Millard on the 10th.

Igor was interviewed by Jackson and Greg Rodzoniak on the 7th in the afternoon. This is in my notes and it's not a mistake.

At the press conference Kavanagh gives on May 8, you can read between the lines and see he knows about the other test drives.

On Thursday May 9, Rodzoniak goes to pick up the Bosma cellphone in Brantford so he's not in Etobicoke interviewing Igor.

SnooperDooper is right. Police don't ask for public help in identifying a suspect until they are as sure as they can be it won't backfire and result in someone being harmed.

 

[Satchie]

Help me understand your view here. Assume the police interviewed Igor and found out about the tattoo on the 7th. How much time passed before they received the tip that it was Millard? Do you think they had Millard on their radar before the 10th (this would mean Kavanagh was lying at the press conference)? With TB missing, why wouldn't they be all over Millard as soon as they found out?

They checked out DMs phone records first, that would have taken a day or more: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/tim-bosma-case-how-did-police-zero-in-on-dellen-millard-1.3431969

I think they were cautious about openly implicating someone seemly quite respectable, on the basis of a description of a tattoo.

 

[billandrew]

Igor was interviewed by Jackson and Greg Rodzoniak on the 7th in the afternoon. This is in my notes and it's not a mistake.

At the press conference Kavanagh gives on May 8, you can read between the lines and see he knows about the other test drives.

On Thursday May 9, Rodzoniak goes to pick up the Bosma cellphone in Brantford so he's not in Etobicoke interviewing Igor.

SnooperDooper is right. Police don't ask for public help in identifying a suspect until they are as sure as they can be it won't backfire and result in someone being harmed.

Thank you for clearing this up. So they found out about the tattoo on the 7th, but didn't connect that tattoo to Millard until the 10th. At least this is my assumption. If they had known about DM prior to the 10th, is there any reason why they would wait until the 10th to go meet him?

 

[SnooperDuper]

Help me understand your view here. Assume the police interviewed Igor and found out about the tattoo on the 7th. How much time passed before they received the tip that it was Millard? Do you think they had Millard on their radar before the 10th (this would mean Kavanagh was lying at the press conference)? With TB missing, why wouldn't they be all over Millard as soon as they found out?

I think because DM's tattoo was in a database, that they were able to follow up on the tattoo almost immediately.

It's obvious DM was on the radar almost immediately as well.

Why announce a man's tattoo after he there is already a tail on him and LE is assured that there are grounds for arrest? It's not to have the public help find DM. He'd already been found (and secured).

 

[Gibson67]

This is another one of those things which isn't entirely clear. I believe that the police make a distinction between a humanitarian or exigent circumstances request, which covers only a very limited period of time, and a production order, which can be for far longer time periods.

We know from the Wind witness's testimony that they had info on the Bate phone early Tuesday morning and that Greg Jackson phoned Igor Tuesday morning and went to see him Tuesday afternoon.

ok so why the delay in releasing information on the ambition tattoo? If they had that info on the afternoon of the 7th..why did they not do a press release with this description sooner than the 10th?

nevermind..some have answered my question in reading on into some other posts.

 

[SnooperDuper]

ok so why the delay in releasing information on the ambition tattoo? If they had that info on the afternoon of the 7th..why did they not do a press release with this description sooner than the 10th?

They didn't actually need the public's help.

I think they announced the tattoo shortly before arresting DM because they hoped that DM's associates would hear and contact/warn him, further clarifying for LE who was involved.

 

[deugirtni]

This is from Adam Carter's Live Blog from February 3rd. Officer testified that he went out to Kemira to fetch TB's phone which was found on the property. Says he went there on May 9th. I had thought that Igor was contacted by police AFTER they found the phone, and discovering the number that made calls to TB, and that after they had *that* number (Bate phone), they got the phone records pretty well immediately, and from those, they discovered other numbers which the Bate phone had contacted, which led them to Igor and his memory? Am I wrong?

Adam Carter

· Feb 3 2016 2:58 PM
Randy Kovacsik now testifying. He's a retired police officer.

· Feb 3 2016 2:59 PM
When he was still working, he was involved in the case on May 9. He went out to Kemira to get the phone with another officer.

 

[Gibson67]

I think because DM's tattoo was in a database, that they were able to follow up on the tattoo almost immediately.

It's obvious DM was on the radar almost immediately as well.

Why announce a man's tattoo after he there is already a tail on him and LE is assured that there are grounds for arrest? It's not to have the public help find DM. He'd already been found (and secured).

if they had a tail on him almost immediately then they would have had police watching him..but they didn't until the 10th..and they missed out on finding the truck in the hangar on the 8th and 9th.

 

[Satchie]

I have a few questions for truck experts.

1) How long does it take to remove a cap off the back of a pickup? and can it be done with two people or would they require help?

2) Is it customary for 5th wheel users to leave the hitch in the bed while a cap is on?

3) If the 5th wheel hitch has to be added after the cap has been removed, how long does that typically take?

thanks in advance

I've also been wondering - how did they drive the truck into the trailer when it had no seats? Also, it was jammed in so tightly LE had to remove it with a tow truck. I'm amazed they managed to get it into the trailer at all - but I guess there's pretty strong determination when you're covering up a murder.

 

[ABro]

Thank you for clearing this up. So they found out about the tattoo on the 7th, but didn't connect that tattoo to Millard until the 10th. At least this is my assumption. If they had known about DM prior to the 10th, is there any reason why they would wait until the 10th to go meet him?

Yes. Exactly. The delay was not in speaking to Igor but in connecting the tattoo to a person, which is why Kavanagh might have decided to go public with the tattoo info on the 9th. He thought he needed public help.

 

[billandrew]

I think because DM's tattoo was in a database, that they were able to follow up on the tattoo almost immediately.

It's obvious DM was on the radar almost immediately as well.

Why announce a man's tattoo after he there is already a tail on him and LE is assured that there are grounds for arrest? It's not to have the public help find DM. He'd already been found (and secured).

But why wait until the 10th? TB was missing. Why wouldn't they jump all over Millard as soon as they had his name?

 

[Sillybilly]

This is from Adam Carter's Live Blog from February 3rd. Officer testified that he went out to Kemira to fetch TB's phone which was found on the property. Says he went there on May 9th. I had thought that Igor was contacted by police AFTER they found the phone, and discovering the number that made calls to TB, and that after they had *that* number (Bate phone), they got the phone records pretty well immediately, and from those, they discovered other numbers which the Bate phone had contacted, which led them to Igor and his memory? Am I wrong?

We have to remember, they did not have to have Tim's phone ... without the phone, they were able to use his phone records to know what number called him at the time of his disappearance.