Bosma Murder Trial - Weekend Discussion #6

[Arnie M]

Because the time stamps on every video was off, except I believe the one at MM's apartment which was within 1 or 2 minutes. The amount of time they were off varied, some up to 3 to 4 hours. For example, the one at Super Sucker was said to be 3 hours off, but then had been fixed by the time Plaxton got to it. The one at GA Masonry was 29 minutes off. I believe it is the hanger DVD that he is referring to when he says:



And this:



http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/hamilton/news/tim-bosma-trial-flames-seen-at-millardair-hangar-hours-after-tim-bosma-disappeared-1.3483358#Plaxton

Yes , thanks , ... I am aware of the time errors of several hours such as on the Super Sucker camera .... but I was not able to find any time error mentioned about the new hangar camera ... maybe it is one of those pieces of evidence in court that never got tweeted by the reporters.

Until yesterday I also had been reading the time as 1:30 to 1:33 .... the way I understood it was to show DM & MS inside the hangar while the actual incineration was taking place .... if I was a defense lawyer I would have been all over it.

 

[deugirtni]

Yes.. it seems to me that when he is talking about being 5 hours off, he is talking about the video recovered from the masonry place. Then for this one, he talks about the seconds transposing to minutes, or is he still talking about the Masonry place's video? I hope the jury can keep up, because I can't. We should check AC's tweets against someone else's... too intertwined.

10:11 AM
There are actually five cameras on GA Masonry, video was recovered from each.
10:12 AM
One of the cameras shows the north end of the MillardAir hangar.
10:12 AM
Another shows the northeast/east side of the hangar.
10:14 AM
Sorry, the northwest side. Some of the labels on Plaxton's presentation are incorrect.
10:15 AM
Streets around the hangar like Fountain Street and Jetliner court can also be seen on these cameras.
10:16 AM
Assistant Crown Tony Leitch says we're going to see a series of videos spliced together from these cameras.
10:19 AM
Plaxton now talking about the examination process of examining the hard drive in the DVR from a set of cameras.
10:21 AM
Plaxton says the DVR was five hours and ten minutes fast when he first looked at it. A year later, it was five hours and 20 minutes off. Plaxton says this is common as the device was powered off and stored -- he calls it "drift."
10:22 AM
Plaxton says he corrected the times by finding an event on the footage that they knew the correct time of, and working from there.
10:25 AM
Plaxton says he located a series of events that were recorded on the GA Masonry cameras at 34 minutes after midnight, and they continued for eight minutes. During that sequence, the SUV is moved from the north end of the hangar to the south end of the hangar. The pickup is then moved to the same location. The SUV then leaves the location.
10:26 AM
Plaxton says he then looked for the headlights and taillights flashing on the sides of the walls to help assist with making a sequence. Some of these cameras were motion detected, which complicated things as there are jumps, he says.
10:27 AM
Plaxton says the seconds on the GA Masonry clock also don't tick by properly.
10:27 AM
The corrected time on the DVR was four hours and 38 minutes fast, Plaxton says.
10:29 AM
If one box in the system settings had been checked off, the date and time stamp would have been regularly updated by Microsoft, Plaxton says.
10:31 AM
Another camera was located on the northwest corner of the MillardAir hangar. It's pointing towards the corner of the building, and not facing outwards.
10:32 AM
There's also a view from the northwest corner of the inside of the hangar.
10:34 AM
There were only two working cameras from the hangar attached to the DVR, Plaxton says.
10:35 AM
The GA Masonry video recorded at 3 frames per second, which Plaxton says is common on security camera video. A DSLR runs at almost 30 frames per second.
10:36 AM
Now watching a video Plaxton says illustrates vehicles moving around the hangar.
10:36 AM
This is from just after midnight on May 7.
10:38 AM
In the video, two vehicles can be seen driving in towards the MIllardAir hangar, one a little after the other.
10:39 AM
There's a period of time on the video where the screen is black. That's because of the motion sensors, Plaxton says.
10:39 AM
He says he inserted a period of time with just a black screen so it doesn't jump.
10:46 AM
According to the presentation, a pickup truck towing a trailer arrives at the MillardAir hangar at 12:19 a.m. on May 7, 2013. A dark SUV follows right after.
10:49 AM
Plaxton says there's not enough detail in the video to say definitely that it's the Bosma truck. The best he can say is it's a pickup truck with the running lights on.
10:49 AM
He also can't say for sure it's followed by Millard's Yukon.
10:50 AM
According to the presentation, at 12:35 a.m., the truck is moved to the south end of the hangar, leaving the trailer in place at the north end of the hangar.
10:53 AM
"At that point we see the pickup truck pull away and the trailer remain in place," Plaxton says.
10:55 AM
At 12:41 a.m., the SUV moves to the south end of the MillardAir hangar, the presentation says. There is movement between the vehicles, suggesting that a person moves from the truck to the SUV, Plaxton says.
10:57 AM
At 12:42 a.m., the SUV leaves the area.
10:58 AM
Plaxton now says he doesn't have enough detail to say that the movement between the vehicles is a person.
10:59 AM
Now we're seeing video at 1:12 a.m. There's no vehicle movement again until that time, Plaxton says.
11:01 AM
At 1:12 a.m., the SUV returns and parks at the north side of the hangar, the report says.
11:02 AM
At that time, the trailer is still at the north end of the hangar where it was previously, Plaxton says.
11:04 AM
Important to remember -- this movement around the MillardAir hangar happened hours after Bosma disappeared.
11:05 AM
The next video shows the inside of the hangar, where two men and a dog are seen at 1:33 a.m. on May 7, 2013.
11:05 AM
Plaxton says he looked at "days" of video inside the hangar, but this was the only significant recorded part.
11:07 AM
Two men can be seen in the video, walking into the hangar. One has a flashlight.
11:07 AM
The timestamp on this video jumps ahead quite a lot. "I believe this timestamp has shifted over and the seconds are being read as minutes," Plaxton says.
11:08 AM
Plaxton says he didn't have enough detail to conclusively ID the men seen in the video.
11:09 AM
Now at 1:44 a.m., a large flame appears above the trailer outside the hangar, the report says.
11:10 AM
The light from wha Plaxton says is flame is bouncing off the hangar wall.
11:11 AM
"I described it as a flame because of the way it illuminates. An electric light would just turn on," Plaxton says.

 

[Arnie M]

Further to our discussion about DM living in a bit of a fantasy world .... read the following slowly and carefully .....

Randy Pausch discusses his creation of the course "Building Virtual Worlds" that involves the student development of virtual realities.

Through this course, Pausch creates a program called "Alice- The Infinitely Scalable Dream Factory"

............

Quoted from "The last lecture" which Dee Emm said was his favorite book .... hmmm

 

[Gibson67]

I just had t refresh my mind and try to understand Deepak's original statement to the public...interesting to hear it again now knowing what we know 3 years later.

[video=youtube;ZpJcSozmeJo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpJcSozmeJo&ab_channel=DeepakParadkar[/video]

 

[Gumshew]

Other suspects. That's what DP said on video. Quite an interesting comment.

Timeline accuracy is very important. If LE have skewed the timeline then you can bet the defence will pursue it. RP has been not-so-subtly getting at that.

In my own opinion, there is already a hint of inaccuracy and cherry picking in the prosecution's presentation of video. Also, some shoddy work securing evidence so that it fell out of a moving vehicle and unclear notes about seat/bullet.

Lastly, how could LE not know what caused or could have caused the two loud bangs on the video? I bet RP knows. I don't believe it is anything to do with gunshots. I get the impression that LE is purposefully leaving the two bang sounds up in the air so that it may "seem" to be gunshots.

All just my opinion and impression.

 

[JuneBug67]

Other suspects. That's what DP said on video. Quite an interesting comment.

Timeline accuracy is very important. If LE have skewed the timeline then you can bet the defence will pursue it. RP has been not-so-subtly getting at that.

In my own opinion, there is already a hint of inaccuracy and cherry picking in the prosecution's presentation of video. Also, some shoddy work securing evidence so that it fell out of a moving vehicle and unclear notes about seat/bullet.

Lastly, how could LE not know what caused or could have caused the two loud bangs on the video? I bet RP knows. I don't believe it is anything to do with gunshots. I get the impression that LE is purposefully leaving the two bang sounds up in the air so that it may "seem" to be gunshots.

All just my opinion and impression.

If the nearby train tracks are the source of the sounds they must have made the road fairly rough. I've even considered the idea that if a driver was holding a gun on a passenger, driving over those tracks may have accidentally discharged the gun. This could explain why they pulled into the Bobcat for several minutes, which was just a short distance up the road from the tracks. Pure speculation of course.

 

[Gibson67]

If the nearby train tracks are the source of the sounds they must have made the road fairly rough. I've even considered the idea that if a driver was holding a gun on a passenger, driving over those tracks may have accidentally discharged the gun. This could explain why they pulled into the Bobcat for several minutes, which was just a short distance up the road from the tracks. Pure speculation of course.

that type of gun would have to be loaded and ready to fire then if were to go off accidentally..which would mean they loaded it and cocked it..so this would be intent to kill whether it want off accidentally or not correct?

 

[deugirtni]

Other suspects. That's what DP said on video. Quite an interesting comment.

Timeline accuracy is very important. If LE have skewed the timeline then you can bet the defence will pursue it. RP has been not-so-subtly getting at that.

In my own opinion, there is already a hint of inaccuracy and cherry picking in the prosecution's presentation of video. Also, some shoddy work securing evidence so that it fell out of a moving vehicle and unclear notes about seat/bullet.

Lastly, how could LE not know what caused or could have caused the two loud bangs on the video? I bet RP knows. I don't believe it is anything to do with gunshots. I get the impression that LE is purposefully leaving the two bang sounds up in the air so that it may "seem" to be gunshots.

All just my opinion and impression.

Interesting that DP says he is 'told' there are more suspects... so sounds like the info he is getting is from police/prosecution, as opposed to from his own client, at that point in time. One has to wonder.. being on the outside and not knowing things.. whether DP took this whole thing upon himself.. or did DM in fact call him to see if he wanted him to work on the case. I recall another lawyer from another lawfirm at some point went to see DM, and DP's nose was all out of joint and he said it is illegal, and he'd be looking into wrongdoing, etc., (rephrasing here), meanwhile the firm in question said that DM had in fact called them. And then as it all turned out in the end, DP never *was* contracted as DM's lawyer in this case. So much that we don't know!

And yes, of course the defence will question any screwups in timelines. I am wondering why RP didn't get into that 2-bangs-heard issue, since it was intimated that they could have been the end of TB's life.

I also think it rather stinks that on the cellphone exhibit, they picked and chose which communications to include on the report. Now we have one that is different from another, because at least one entry is missing from the one available online now. Why would it change, and did it only change online, or is it a correction, and if correction, is the jury aware, because it was certainly never tweeted about. If they had just listed everything, rather than picking and choosing what they felt was relevant, it would be easier to confirm the accuracy of the cellphone records. As it stands, it just looks like stuff is missing, and so there is no way to check or confirm; for example all of the texts between SH and DM.. not there.. but yet in the testimony, we see a visual presentation of texts between them which include exact times to the second.. no way to check if they are the same times on the cell exhibit because they're left off. Is something trying to be hidden or avoided? If it was the other way around, I'm sure it would be seen like that.

 

[Gumshew]

that type of gun would have to be loaded and ready to fire then if were to go off accidentally..which would mean they loaded it and cocked it..so this would be intent to kill whether it want off accidentally or not correct?

Even if this was true and the gun accidentally went off, I doubt the shots could be heard as loud bangs on video audio. The gun in question makes fairly loud pops but not bangs. I my opinion the sounds are not gunshots.

 

[JuneBug67]

that type of gun would have to be loaded and ready to fire then if were to go off accidentally..which would mean they loaded it and cocked it..so this would be intent to kill whether it want off accidentally or not correct?

I don't know what would be required to have this gun go off without direct intention. My thought was just a possibility that would fit the seeming lack of planning for the murder that I think the rest of the evidence suggests. I don't personally make any distinctions in the heinousness of this crime that are rooted in premeditation or not, or purposeful or accidental discharge of the weapon. The whole situation was just so clearly dangerous and saturated with risk to their victim's life that I don't really care how and why the jury convicts on first degree, I just care that they do. As always, I'll add the caveat that we haven't heard the defense case yet. But as of right now the callousness and criminality of these two absolutely blows my mind.

 

[JuneBug67]

Even if this was true and the gun accidentally went off, I doubt the shots could be heard as loud bangs on video audio. The gun in question makes fairly loud pops but not bangs. I my opinion the sounds are not gunshots.

I was meaning to infer that the bangs were caused by their vehicle or some other heavier vehicle going over the tracks. I agree that the gunshot would not necessarily be heard, especially if it was coincident to the bangs made by a vehicle. Does anybody know what the pot hole situation was like in the spring in that area?

 

[JuneBug67]

I saw a dash cam video on FB that somebody made of the drive over those tracks that showed the proximity of the tracks and the Bobcat in a useful way. It's in a public group. Not sure what the rules are for linking to other crime discussion sites.

 

[Deleted member 102539]

Further to our discussion about DM living in a bit of a fantasy world .... read the following slowly and carefully .....

Randy Pausch discusses his creation of the course "Building Virtual Worlds" that involves the student development of virtual realities.

Through this course, Pausch creates a program called "Alice- The Infinitely Scalable Dream Factory"

............

Quoted from "The last lecture" which Dee Emm said was his favorite book .... hmmm

“He’s a bit of a philosopher,” Paradkar said. “… He’s taking it one step at a time.”

http://www.metronews.ca/news/toront...illard-to-plead-not-guilty-in-bosma-case.html

 

[Gumshew]

Interesting that DP says he is 'told' there are more suspects... so sounds like the info he is getting is from police/prosecution, as opposed to from his own client, at that point in time. One has to wonder.. being on the outside and not knowing things.. whether DP took this whole thing upon himself.. or did DM in fact call him to see if he wanted him to work on the case. I recall another lawyer from another lawfirm at some point went to see DM, and DP's nose was all out of joint and he said it is illegal, and he'd be looking into wrongdoing, etc., (rephrasing here), meanwhile the firm in question said that DM had in fact called them. And then as it all turned out in the end, DP never *was* contracted as DM's lawyer in this case. So much that we don't know!

And yes, of course the defence will question any screwups in timelines. I am wondering why RP didn't get into that 2-bangs-heard issue, since it was intimated that they could have been the end of TB's life.

I also think it rather stinks that on the cellphone exhibit, they picked and chose which communications to include on the report. Now we have one that is different from another, because at least one entry is missing from the one available online now. Why would it change, and did it only change online, or is it a correction, and if correction, is the jury aware, because it was certainly never tweeted about. If they had just listed everything, rather than picking and choosing what they felt was relevant, it would be easier to confirm the accuracy of the cellphone records. As it stands, it just looks like stuff is missing, and so there is no way to check or confirm; for example all of the texts between SH and DM.. not there.. but yet in the testimony, we see a visual presentation of texts between them which include exact times to the second.. no way to check if they are the same times on the cell exhibit because they're left off. Is something trying to be hidden or avoided? If it was the other way around, I'm sure it would be seen like that.

In the case of DP's iffy retainment, have you thought about that he was also representing MWJ at the same time-- a conflict of interest dismissal seems a good guess. Yes, I agree, there's really a lot we don't know. Yes, interesting that he was "told" there are more suspects.

I'm pretty sure RP will get into what the two bangs are when court resumes. Is the truck crossing the train track the source of the bangs? If it is, then why would LE purposefully make believe they didn't know the source? Are they wanting us to use our imagination and imagine gunshots? So,... practicing willful omission, thus intimation, in order to persuade the jury to come to a certain favourable conclusion?

Yes, I also think it stinks that the cellphone exhibit is cherry picked. You bring up excellent points... again, the willful omissions.

 

[Alethea Dice]

Yes , thanks , ... I am aware of the time errors of several hours such as on the Super Sucker camera .... but I was not able to find any time error mentioned about the new hangar camera ... maybe it is one of those pieces of evidence in court that never got tweeted by the reporters.

Until yesterday I also had been reading the time as 1:30 to 1:33 .... the way I understood it was to show DM & MS inside the hangar while the actual incineration was taking place .... if I was a defense lawyer I would have been all over it.

Yes.. it seems to me that when he is talking about being 5 hours off, he is talking about the video recovered from the masonry place. Then for this one, he talks about the seconds transposing to minutes, or is he still talking about the Masonry place's video? I hope the jury can keep up, because I can't. We should check AC's tweets against someone else's... too intertwined.

It's confusing because Plaxton spliced the videos together to make one video showing the sequence of events.

Mar 9 2016 10:16 AM Adam Carter Assistant Crown Tony Leitch says we're going to see a series of videos spliced together from these cameras.

Mar 9 2016 10:21 AM Adam Carter Plaxton says the DVR was five hours and ten minutes fast when he first looked at it. A year later, it was five hours and 20 minutes off. Plaxton says this is common as the device was powered off and stored -- he calls it "drift."

Mar 9 2016 10:27 AM Adam Carter The corrected time on the DVR was four hours and 38 minutes fast, Plaxton says.

The video he's talking about that is 5 hours off is the video from the hangar. Plaxton says the video is from 1:33 am. Add the final calculation of 4 hours and 38 minutes, and you get 6:11 am, which is what shows on the video. Here are Molly Hayes' tweets which should help:

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes Mar 9
the next surveillance video clip were looking at (from May 6, 2013) was taken from GA Masonry on Fountain St N in Kitchener.

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes Mar 9
GA Masonry is right by (essentially adjacent to) Dellen Millard's air hangar at the Waterloo Airport.

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes Mar 9
GA Masonry had several surveillance cameras. Showing the various angles from each camera. Part of the Millardair hangar is in view.

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes Mar 9
Now seeing a photo of a DVR for Millardair hangar seized from 5 Rufford Rd (Millard's gf Christina Noudga's house).

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes Mar 9
There were 2 functional cameras at the hangar, Plaxton says. One inside one outside.

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes Mar 9
The outside one was turned directly toward hangar itself--so only view was of the coroner of the siding. Had to rely on reflections.

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes Mar 9
Time stamp on the hangar DVR was 5hrs10mins off when Plaxton first reviewed it. A year later, 5hrs20mins off.

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes Mar 9
That's common for a system that's stored off and unplugged, he says. Had to find an event they knew time of to then figure out correct time.

molly hayes ‏@mollyhayes Mar 9
He determined the DVR time was 4 hours 38 mins fast.

 

[hopingforjustice]

FB friends aren't always real friends. But he could be. Not saying he doesn't have *any* real friends, but just speaking in regard to the 'sheeple'.

Yes, for sure they would have tried to conceal everything.. but... for example.. the plan was obviously to remove the VIN from the truck, and have the truck painted.. if not for the whole tattoo-being-recognized and starting the ball rolling to catch a killer, I'm not sure how much evidence there would have been in the end, if the two had received as much time as they were obviously hoping for, to clear out evidence.. forever. Such as.. there would be no sign ever again, of TB's truck, it would have simply disappeared; if the incinerator had been cleaned out perfectly.. same thing, evidence of a human inside would be gone; if the truck seats had been taken to a steel junk yard, and the whole tattoo recognition didn't happen, same thing; keep going, with what could have been done with a little more time, and what would have been left to convict on? There would be a photograph (possibly, but not if the whole thing had taken longer to become such a media event), but would it prove anything, because can't timestamps be altered, and even if there was a photo of the truck in the hangar, if there was nothing else to find, could a conviction be obtained on that? I guess so, if they didn't clean up the blood spatter inside the truck, but probably they would have cleaned that better with some more time? Not sure. All I know is.. it's too bad that AJ didn't contact CS much much sooner, and Igor is my hero.

And yes, I agree.. first degree convictions have been obtained on much less. moo

bbm

I was going to respond that at least we have the reassurance that the auto body guy called it in as suspicious. But in re-reading it all, I was incorrectly assuming that he did that now. Although I can't find reference as to exactly when he did call in to LE I now am thinking it was only after the arrest. And I wonder if it was not at the uncles urging here too

Tony Diciano is the next witness, with an Italian as opposed to a Russian accent. Tall and white haired, he’s run an auto body shop for 38 years. He’s known Dellen Millard for 7-10 years and met him through his uncle, Robert Burns.

http://www.annrbrocklehurst.com/2016/02/dispatches-from-the-tim-bosma-trial-day-5.html

 

[Gumshew]

I was meaning to infer that the bangs were caused by their vehicle or some other heavier vehicle going over the tracks. I agree that the gunshot would not necessarily be heard, especially if it was coincident to the bangs made by a vehicle. Does anybody know what the pot hole situation was like in the spring in that area?

Okay, got it. I read too fast sometimes.

 

[hopingforjustice]

that type of gun would have to be loaded and ready to fire then if were to go off accidentally..which would mean they loaded it and cocked it..so this would be intent to kill whether it want off accidentally or not correct?

Just taking an illegal gun with them has to infer something IMO

 

[Tealgrove]

I was meaning to infer that the bangs were caused by their vehicle or some other heavier vehicle going over the tracks. I agree that the gunshot would not necessarily be heard, especially if it was coincident to the bangs made by a vehicle. Does anybody know what the pot hole situation was like in the spring in that area?

I can't tell you what it was like 3 years ago, however I drove that route not 3 hours ago. It was fine. Smooth sailing and going over the railroad tracks was no biggie.

I actually didn't realize where I was until I saw Kemira and then went, "wait a minute". I actually pulled off for a few minutes to look around and take note of everything.

The road was smooth today and my van went over the tracks without any bangs. Now a big truck might be another story but it was a non event today for me.

The thing that struck me though was, there were many other places to pull off where, at that time of night, no one would see you or suspect anything. The fact that Tim's phone ended up where it did, and they stopped and parked where cameras recorded them blows my mind.

They had other options. My Goodness!

 

[Gumshew]

I can't tell you what it was like 3 years ago, however I drove that route not 3 hours ago. It was fine. Smooth sailing and going over the railroad tracks was no biggie.

Was it just as smooth sailing across the tracks 3 years ago? Maybe a truck with an empty trailer would make more noise going across the track?