CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #10

[Allusonz]

I think it is a fair QUESTION, and question is what it is, that anyone can walk away from a 700,000 mortgage and within a a few months turn around and get approved for another one. Please don't turn questions into accusations.

I am a formerly licensed realtor. I gave it up upon being a single parent due to the evening and weekend hours. Knowing what I know about AH's payment history, or lack of on his mortgage I would consider him unable to qualify and I would send him to a loan officer for a pre-approval expecting confirmation he did not qualify.


FHA loans are far less strict than conventional loans and in order to qualify for a FHA loan a borrower has to have 12 months clean credit. That means no late rent or mortgage payments for 12 months, no late payments of any kind for 12 months.

We know from AH's own words in his deposition stopped making mortgage payments immediately upon Mr. Harrod's disappearance. We know he had a mortgage note that was still a financial obligation until a few months prior to purchasing his current home How then did he qualify for his current mortgage?

If LE has stated the motive in this case is money, should they then not pursue this area when people other than Mr. Harrod have access to his, not their, money to investigate that avenue?

No stone left unturned. LE should explore each and every area to uncover ANY and ALL possible wrong doing in this case. Wrong doing can occur with Mr. Harrod's money now that it is no longer in his control.

Probably because I don't believe it was a jumbo loan.

California is one of the few states that the federal governement considers to be "high cost". For I believe the last 3 years, which has been extended once again into next year, you can borrow up to $729,750 dollars on a conforming and FHA mortgage prior to it being called a "jumbo loan".

It is defined according to the federal government by the median sales price in an area.

If my memory is correct his home was under this amount.

The federalj government did this as well as a few other incentives.

There is a Platinum CA Buyer Assistance Grant Funds in which the home buyer can receive grant money for 3% of the purchase price. The CHF 3% Platinum home buyer grant program can be applied towards satisfying the down payment requirement.

This is not the only incentive available to people in CA.

It as well does not require any form of repayment.

 

[Allusonz]

Just to be sure -- was the 10 AM call from a family or non-family member? My impression that it was the former, and if my memory is correct, it was a very odd phone call to say the least. (Someone please correct me -- I believe that call was from PaB -- I believe that it was PaB supposedly talking to Bob, during which he had a brief interaction with his SIL JeM regarding a trip to the store.) One of the early witness statements had some sort of euphemism in which one of the participants reportedly (from PaB) "gave a positive (or was it favorable?) response". Those sorts of vagaries are, need I say, textbook instances of red flag responses. Nobody speaks in the way Bob was reported as having spoken. That to me says, imo, there is a story being woven or presented.

It hurts so much to write here, and on this subject.

I've never stopped reading from all possible sides on this case. Of living witnesses, I really trust Bob's housekeeper. I would beg that she is not sleuthed, but I would submit that all who have met her or seen her clip on the forthcoming TV episode will know that she is 'good people'.

I read here as often as I can, and it is always such a comfort that Bob has some good friends.

In short, I do think that the unmade bed is a significant timeline issue, and I think that those who are locked into statements regarding conversations with Bob after the time he typically made his bed should probably consult lawyers asap, especially if they hope to inherit money and avoid prison.

I am quite sure that it was around this time as I was the SHOCKED one a few threads back to learn that there had in fact been more than the ONE call.

 

[Allusonz]

Here is additional info on the phone calls. We know the housekeeper called Bob that morning, but we don't know what time. If we go by what Agnes said in the Disappeared clip, she called and spoke to Bob before Jeff arrived. The 10AM call was a comment posted by the reporter/writer of the OC Register article under the article and all comments have since been removed. It was speculation only at one point that the 10AM call was the housekeeper. I'm personallly not sure of the accuracy of any of the calls/timeline at this point.

• Morning - Time Unknown – “Bob Harrod talked to the housekeeper on the phone earlier that morning and told her to come.” (Ref OC Register article) Narrator: “[snipped] Normally, she cleans Bob’s house on Tuesday, but this week she’d arranged to come on Monday.” Agnes: “And he said that will be fine, I will be here, and Jeff is coming and he’s gonna to take care of a couple of things in the house before Fontelle comes.” (Ref transcribed from ID Disappeared clip – clip since removed from website)

• 9:30AM – “About 9:30 a.m., Bob's son-in-law Jeff Michaels arrived to help get the house ready.” (Ref LA Times article)

• 10:00AM – “Officials have said that at 10 a.m. July 27 there was a phone call to Bob Harrod, which is the last time anyone other than Jeff Michaels verified he was at the house. Police are not releasing the content of those phone records.” (Ref comment posted by reporter/writer of OC Register article under the article. All comments have since been removed from website.)

• ~11:00AM – “Fontelle said on 07-27-2009 at approximately 2100 hours (Pacific time) she was contacted by her daughter in law, Julie Michaels, who told her that Fontelle’s husband (Julie’s father), Robert Harrod, had not been seen since approximately 1100 hours on 07-27-009. Fontelle said Julie told her that Julie’s husband, Jeffrey Michaels, had been at Robert and Fontelle’s home (522 Carnation) on 07-27-2009 at approximately 1100 hours.” (Ref Missing Persons Report)

• ~11:00AM-12:00PM – ‘I called my dad that morning by telephone, he had obviously been getting quite a few phone calls that morning. Then I realized that my BIL was there and I DID hear him say he was going to the "hardware store". My dad responded to him in a favorable way. I told my dad that I would let him go and talk to him later. That was the last time that I spoke to him. Times vary as I could not tell you the exact time that I called Dad, I gave an approximate of sometime between 11 and 12 and found later it was probably after 11:30 a.m.’ (Ref PB post on another forum)

• ? - ~11:45AM – “The police have not revealed the phone records but each of my sisters said called Dad early that day, the latest of their two calls was around 11:45, as that call was completed just before noon. Dad gave my sister the impression that he had received a number of calls that morning but, I know Dad did not usually like talking on the phone and would often "rush" callers off. He always acted like he preferred to be left alone, that the telephone was just a bother. Dad had an answering machine but wouldn't turn it on, so .......” (Ref RB post on another forum)

http://articles.latimes.com/2010/feb/02/local/la-me-disappeared3-2010feb03/2
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=7877873&postcount=73
http://www2.ocregister.com/articles/harrod-bob-police-2598739-fontelle-michaels?orderby=TimeStampAscending&oncommentsPage=2&showRecommendedOnly=0#slComments
http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showpost.php?p=6994844&postcount=3

Thank you for this! It is greatly appreciated by myself!

 

[Allusonz]

I simply have this to say.

It is common, especially with LE, to develop tunnel vision. Instead of following the evidence, a theory is developed and then evidence is found to conform to the theory as it is perceived to be. I see this often especially in cases of wrongful convictions.

It can be a very dangerous path and one that we all must be careful not to fall into.

 

[Cubby]

Probably because I don't believe it was a jumbo loan.

California is one of the few states that the federal governement considers to be "high cost". For I believe the last 3 years, which has been extended once again into next year, you can borrow up to $729,750 dollars on a conforming and FHA mortgage prior to it being called a "jumbo loan".

It is defined according to the federal government by the median sales price in an area.

If my memory is correct his home was under this amount.

The federalj government did this as well as a few other incentives.

There is a Platinum CA Buyer Assistance Grant Funds in which the home buyer can receive grant money for 3% of the purchase price. The CHF 3% Platinum home buyer grant program can be applied towards satisfying the down payment requirement.

This is not the only incentive available to people in CA.

It as well does not require any form of repayment.

Thank you, Allusonz. You are correct. It appears in CA, the FHA loan limits are much higher than they are here in the Chicago market.

http://www.fha.com/lending_limits_state.cfm?state=CALIFORNIA


He would still have to meet FHA underwriting guidelines.

Now that we know CA has FHA loan limits to 729,750 we'll have to do some more research on FHA underwriting guidelines.....

I seem to recall of the min 3% down with FHA an even lower amount is required to come from the buyers own funds, which could explain the 14K DP.

 

[Cubby]

I'm forgetting the date AH turned the house back over to the trust. Does anyone recall?

 

[Opie]

According to AH's deposition, it was around July 30-31 of 2011.

AH states he moved out of Windflower around that date because the house had been turned over to "his aunts." (The co-conservators)

 

[Cubby]

FHA insured mortgages are generally not available to borrowers whose property was foreclosed on or given a deed-in-lieu of foreclosure within the previous three years. However, if the foreclosure of the borrower's main residence was the result of extenuating circumstances, an exception may be granted if they have since established good credit. This does not include the inability to sell a home when transferring from one area to another.

http://www.fha.com/fha_requirements_credit.cfm


I wonder if FHA considers Bob's disappearance an extenuating circumstance?

 

[SuziQ]

Re family members/spouses paying rent:

I know it may be hard for some of you to believe, but what the heck...

A couple had a wonderful marriage exceeding 50 years. The husband gave his wife an expensive piece of jewelry and was required to pay a gift tax on it. I am not sure what changes the law has taken in such an instance today, plus the case particulars would be highly relevant no matter when.

Where is Robert Harrod, and why are his family members not considered victims on this victim-friendly site?

~jmo~

Because per PPD they are persons of interest in the homicide investigation of Bob Harrod. Per rule of WS, discussing them as persons of interest is acceptable.

 

[shana]

I'm forgetting the date AH turned the house back over to the trust. Does anyone recall?

I found the following in my notes:


Document Number: 2012000235329


Document Type: QUITCLAIM DEED
Recording Date: 4/25/2012
Number of Pages: 2
Grantor: HARROD ANDREW R TR
Grantee: BORCHER PAULA S COTR
Grantor/Grantee:


Document Number: 2012000235329


Document Type: QUITCLAIM DEED
Recording Date: 4/25/2012
Number of Pages: 2
Grantor: HARROD ANDREW R TR
Grantee: BRADY ROBERTA D COTR
Grantor/Grantee:

 

[shana]

Found this too (paste):

Document Number: 2012000235329


Document Type: QUITCLAIM DEED
Recording Date: 4/25/2012
Number of Pages: 2
Grantor: HARROD ANDREW R TR
Grantee: BORCHER PAULA S COTR
Grantor/Grantee:


Document Number: 2012000235329


Document Type: QUITCLAIM DEED
Recording Date: 4/25/2012
Number of Pages: 2
Grantor: HARROD ANDREW R TR
Grantee: BRADY ROBERTA D COTR
Grantor/Grantee:


Document Number: 2012000235329


Document Type: QUITCLAIM DEED
Recording Date: 4/25/2012
Number of Pages: 2
Grantor: HARROD TRISHA J TR
Grantee: BORCHER PAULA S COTR
Grantor/Grantee:

Document Number: 2012000235329


Document Type: QUITCLAIM DEED
Recording Date: 4/25/2012
Number of Pages: 2
Grantor: HARROD TRISHA J TR
Grantee: BRADY ROBERTA D COTR
Grantor/Grantee:

 

[Cubby]

I found the following in my notes:


Document Number: 2012000235329


Document Type: QUITCLAIM DEED
Recording Date: 4/25/2012
Number of Pages: 2
Grantor: HARROD ANDREW R TR
Grantee: BORCHER PAULA S COTR
Grantor/Grantee:


Document Number: 2012000235329


Document Type: QUITCLAIM DEED
Recording Date: 4/25/2012
Number of Pages: 2
Grantor: HARROD ANDREW R TR
Grantee: BRADY ROBERTA D COTR
Grantor/Grantee:

Thank you, Shana.

The following is speculation: I think the credit questions can go either way. It would really depend on how FHA views the non payment of the mortgage on Windflower for 24 months between appx August 1, 2009 and the time AH moved out of the home on Windflower appx July 30/31, 2011.
It would also depend on whether they viewed the late payments until the time AH moved out of Windflower or until the time he signed the quitclaim.

AH could have re-established credit with the 12 months of rental payments (if he was renting) between the time he vacated Windflower and the time he closed on his current residence.


Regardless, this is still very similiar to a deed in lieu of foreclosure, that if we look at the date of the quit claim was within a very short time of closing/mortgage funding on the current residence. That is not something that would have been possible if it were not for the private financing by the person who is now missing. If it were a regular bank, AH would still not qualify for even an FHA mortgage.

 

[shana]

Because per PPD they are persons of interest in the homicide investigation of Bob Harrod. Per rule of WS, discussing them as persons of interest is acceptable.

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #9


Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #9

 

[SuziQ]

Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #9


Websleuths Crime Sleuthing Community - View Single Post - CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #9

You forgot posts 1076 through 1079. IMO, what you site as legal example does not apply to the document stating family members are being investigated as POI.

We'll have to agree to disagree as this is old ground previously covered. I choose not to ignore or excuse away glaring information in this case.

 

[Cubby]

Just more outloud thinking. I suppose if the mortgage underwriter accepted AH's belief that his loan was to be forgiven upon his grandfathers death, even though his grandfather has not been declared deceased and no documentation existed, that might be considered an 'extenuating circumstance'. Maybe that is what the secret agreement is about. Maybe the mortgage underwriter took the co-conservators word about forgiveness of the loan due to Bob's presumed death even though he is not yet legally declared deceased?


I wonder if it would be considered an extenuating circumstance if written documentation of Bob's wishes proved otherwise? Lot's and lot's of questions.......

It still does not make sense, but I didn't push the loan through.

 

[shana]

You forgot posts 1076 through 1079. IMO, what you site as legal example does not apply to the document stating family members are being investigated as POI.

We'll have to agree to disagree as this is old ground previously covered. I choose not to ignore or excuse away glaring information in this case.

I did not forget them; to the contrary, they were not relevant to my point.

Here's the url for the entire page of posts starting with 1076.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?t=169633&page=44

Thanks...yes, agree to disagree, now as before.

 

[believe09]

I'm forgetting the date AH turned the house back over to the trust. Does anyone recall?

April 2012 is when he quitclaimed it back to the trust.

 

[believe09]

Just more outloud thinking. I suppose if the mortgage underwriter accepted AH's belief that his loan was to be forgiven upon his grandfathers death, even though his grandfather has not been declared deceased and no documentation existed, that might be considered an 'extenuating circumstance'. Maybe that is what the secret agreement is about. Maybe the mortgage underwriter took the co-conservators word about forgiveness of the loan due to Bob's presumed death even though he is not yet legally declared deceased?


I wonder if it would be considered an extenuating circumstance if written documentation of Bob's wishes proved otherwise? Lot's and lot's of questions.......

It still does not make sense, but I didn't push the loan through.

I wonder if the co conservators provided a statement to the lender as well.

 

[believe09]

Thank you, Allusonz. You are correct. It appears in CA, the FHA loan limits are much higher than they are here in the Chicago market.

http://www.fha.com/lending_limits_state.cfm?state=CALIFORNIA


He would still have to meet FHA underwriting guidelines.

Now that we know CA has FHA loan limits to 729,750 we'll have to do some more research on FHA underwriting guidelines.....

I seem to recall of the min 3% down with FHA an even lower amount is required to come from the buyers own funds, which could explain the 14K DP.

OK, 14k is around 2 percent but my math was never good-so there are circumstances where virtually the entire loan is financed via an FHA loan and you can put even less than 3% down?

I am on my way to CA. Get a home with no collateral or downpayment perhaps, and dont worry about your repayment history lol.

 

[Cubby]

IIRC, and this is going back a number of years, for FHA loans 2.25% has to be from the borrowers funds, or something similiar.

The down payment aside for a moment, there is still a DTI or debt to income ratio which must be met. The mortgage amount on an FHA loan can not exceed 31% of the buyers gross monthly income.

MORTGAGE PAYMENT EXPENSE TO EFFECTIVE INCOME
Add up the total mortgage payment (principal and interest, escrow deposits for taxes, hazard insurance, mortgage insurance premium, homeowners' dues, etc.). Then, take that amount and divide it by the gross monthly income. The maximum ratio to qualify is 31%. See the following example:

http://www.fha.com/fha_requirements_debt.cfm

What type of monthly income one must have to take out a 700K loan with almost no money down and still have the monthly payment not exceed 31% of their monthly income.

I'm back and forth with kiddo and his homework, but if someone can again tell me purchase price and the yearly taxes, I can do a ballpark on the monthly note. I may not be able to get to it this evening but should be able to by end of day tomorrow.

Or someone else can figure the math if you follow me. There are plenty of sites out there which should calculate monthly mortgage payments....... and funny it would have been too costly for the co-conservators to collect. Ah well.

This might be another loop hole where they all get to proceed with spending Bob's money as if he were deceased even though legally he has not yet been declared deceased. AH started doing that August of 2009, within DAYS of his grandfathers disappearance.

:furious: