CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #11

[zwiebel]

Down in the SAR thread we are all looking for information regarding climate, terrain, temp, altitude, cell towers, traffic patterns, bodies of water., etc. For July 27, 2009. For basically a small circle then a big circle, all with the centre being Carnation Drive, Placentia.

If anybody finds anything, please post it here or downstairs, someone alloted that area will find it useful! Any road closures that day especially welcome.

Anyone looking for a memory trigger; 2009 was when the three driest years in CA history ended. There had been big fires the year previously, and huge electric storms.

 

[zwiebel]

I've found a suspicious fire but the PDF incident report is blank. Could this be a technical problem or simple mistake, does anybody know? Or would LE be likely to ask for it to be deleted?

 

[GrainneDhu]

I had to go to the doctor yesterday, so I took the opportunity to ask about Bob's possible mental state. Being in a small town, my doctor's patients range in age from young teens to geriatric.

To review, at least one of Bob's daughters has said that Bob seemed to be losing his memory in the years leading up to his disappearance but Bob's doctor said that he showed no impairment.

So I asked my doctor if it were possible that Bob was experiencing some mental impairment that was only apparent to his family and not his doctor. My doctor said that he can't diagnose Bob, yadda yadda yadda, but that in general, yes it is possible for a family to catch symptoms of mental impairment that a doctor might not on a regular visit.

However! He pointed out that there are a variety of tests for memory impairment that are fast to administer and that his own policy is to administer one on a yearly basis to all his patients over 65 or as requested. He couldn't estimate how many doctors follow a similar policy but said that it is based on recommendations to doctors.

He also pointed out that if Bob's memory impairment was so mild that only his family was aware of it, then Bob was unlikely to be so impaired that it would affect his behaviour in really obvious ways. It is unlikely, for instance, for someone so subtly impaired to just walk away from home or to become so confused that they were unable to figure out how to get home again.

 

[zwiebel]

The only evidence for that dementia theory by daughters seems to be that Bob sometimes mislaid his keys, and, maybe, that he kept all his 'clutter'.

By that criteria, I'd say almost everyone has dementia. And all that 'clutter' was then collected by the daughters - who also seem to have trouble recalling who had keys and who didn't, so....

Bob's old neighbour says he didn't think Bob had dementia, and Bob's doctor (who Bob had started seeing regularly again) said the same. I completely agree with your doc, that even a person who has exhibited the first signs of dementia
isn't going to go so far downhill overnight that they wander off. That would be a stroke or something, and Bob would have been found quickly.

Just another attempt to distract people from looking in certain directions, if you get my drift.

 

[Oriah]

I've found a suspicious fire but the PDF incident report is blank. Could this be a technical problem or simple mistake, does anybody know? Or would LE be likely to ask for it to be deleted?

Do you know which FD and/or arson investigators responded? That's a good way to determine if technical, accidental, or LE initiated.

 

[zwiebel]

OC Fire Dept. It's a bit out of my area really, but the date caught my eye so I just wanted the details. Probably just a tech glitch by whoever uploaded the PDF. Here it is:

http://www.ocfa.org/_uploads/pdf/Ortega Fire 7-30-09.pdf

And here's where I found it:

http://www.ocfa.org/Content/NewsEvents/MajorIncidents.aspx

ETA: Just found another Ortega fire in 2009 (Nov) with all the info gone!????

http://www.ocfa.org/_uploads/pdf/Ortega Fire 11-16-09.pdf

 

[zwiebel]

I'm not going to let my curiousity go into overdrive about this, think it may be just someone putting an extra space in the link or something.

ETA: This has got to be the Nov 16th incident:
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=weather/wildfire_center&id=7121631

 

[Oriah]

I'm not going to let my curiousity go into overdrive about this, think it may be just someone putting an extra space in the link or something.

ETA: This has got to be the Nov 16th incident:
http://abclocal.go.com/kabc/story?section=weather/wildfire_center&id=7121631

If you look under public forms, you can request the info. Going to do that tomorrow morning (tho I don't think it's related, heck- why not.)

 

[zwiebel]

Oriah, please be careful about the info you reveal when you make the request. It is likely to be made public and available to people you would not want to have it, at a later date.

 

[believe09]

Oriah, please be careful about the info you reveal when you make the request. It is likely to be made public and available to people you would not want to have it, at a later date.

I have actually been curious about this statement which I have seen a raised a few times now.

One thing to take into consideration is that FOIA is not a blank check, especially when it comes to an open active investigation. For example, I can make a request for something but that doesnt mean the next FOIA request will include the name address and phone number of every person who has made a request to date. There is discretion applied. Also, there are a number of exemptions for FOIA, one or more of which can be applied at any time. Something tells me if I make a FOIA request of Osama Bin Laden's autopsy photos, I am unlikely to get them.

 

[zwiebel]

Thanks believe09, I hope liberal helpings of discretion will be available in this case.

By the way, please don't make a FOIA, re Osama Bin Laden - I can see that one running and running in all the wrong directions.......

 

[zwiebel]

I figured these guys might know about exemptions, and it seems they do.

http://www.fbi.gov/foia/foia-exemptions

ETA: I'm sure some of those must apply in this case, but getting through that language is a bit like swimming in treacle.

 

[zwiebel]

I have been trying to make a list of where everyone was, July 27th, 2009.

Bob - at home
JeM - Bob's house/ store/s
JuM - ? Online?
AH - ?
PB -? (maybe home, if she phoned Bob from there?)
RB - ?
CL - Bob's house
FH - MO
BL - Somewhere not near Bob.

AH was at Bob's house in the evening (LE report) *but I can't find anything about where he was when Bob disappeared.

RB was at home in the evening when sis called to tell her Bob was missing? - but during the day?

This is all I have and it looks a bit scanty. Is there anything out there I've missed to help fill in the gaps?

 

[believe09]

if I was looking for JuM, I would check her community's online message board.

 

[zwiebel]

Added.

 

[Oriah]

Not to change the current topic (which I think is most excellent) but have I missed somewhere in Mr. Harrod's threads mention of storage facilities that we could map out in the different areas of interest?
TIA if anyone has this info.

 

[believe09]

Not to change the current topic (which I think is most excellent) but have I missed somewhere in Mr. Harrod's threads mention of storage facilities that we could map out in the different areas of interest?
TIA if anyone has this info.

That's a pretty interesting idea.

Oriah, can you share if HRD dogs can be brought to a storage facility just to see if there are remains stashed anywhere, or do you have to have permission from the owner of the storage unit?

What if there were items that were taken from Carnation Dr and stored off site from the houses of the daughters, for example? (I dont believe any of their homes would likely fit the extensive haul that was made from Bob's house.) What if there is evidence of decomp on any of those items? The dogs would be able to detect it easily I would think.

Perhaps the daughters would willingly submit items from Bob's home to a SAR group so that this could be determined. Things that they took, I mean.

 

[believe09]

I guess if I were the daughters I would want to make sure that there was no lingering scent of death on the things I had taken from my dad's house...that is just too heartbreaking for words.

 

[Oriah]

That's a pretty interesting idea.

Oriah, can you share if HRD dogs can be brought to a storage facility just to see if there are remains stashed anywhere, or do you have to have permission from the owner of the storage unit?

What if there were items that were taken from Carnation Dr and stored off site from the houses of the daughters, for example? (I dont believe any of their homes would likely fit the extensive haul that was made from Bob's house.) What if there is evidence of decomp on any of those items? The dogs would be able to detect it easily I would think.

Perhaps the daughters would willingly submit items from Bob's home to a SAR group so that this could be determined. Things that they took, I mean.

In my experience, there are three different routes to go down when it comes to searching storage facilities. (The public ones, anyway. It's different if someone has a private storage container located on private property.)
But anyway: the owner of the business itself who can grant permission to search, the individual who rents the storage unit from the business, or LE if they have a warrant. It's not a lot different than any other rental property.

Does anyone know anything about possible storage rentals?

 

[shefner]

I guess if I were the daughters I would want to make sure that there was no lingering scent of death on the things I had taken from my dad's house...that is just too heartbreaking for words.

It is heartbreaking....and it makes me want to kick butt and take names. This whole case is just screaming for justice.