CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - #16

[Cubby]

People are going to do what they are going to do. In pleasant temps like the 80s with low to mid-range humidity, you see people out and active all the time according to the California Boy (my husband). In general, as the temps go up the humidity goes down so that there is fairly dramatic cooling and many people shift their outdoor activities to very early mornings, late evenings or even night.

When temps are really high, people often shift their outdoor activities to early mornings or late evenings.



According to the California Boy, there is very little housing in central and southern California that does not have air conditioning. Either regular air conditioning or swamp coolers (dry outside air pulled through a water soaked filter to lower the temperature and increase the humidity).

Missouri can get very hot in the summer with temps in the 90s F and even topping 100 F but it is also extremely humid. It's like walking around in someone else's sweat. Much less pleasant to me than places like Albuquerque or Las Vegas that can be really hot but with very little humidity.

Oh, I agree. St. Louis in July is like being in a sauna. I thought it was worse than Florida in the summer. I almost passed out from the heat it was that bad in St. Louis. I've been in 108/109 in Phoenix. Dry heat at that temp is not as bad as the 90's with high humidty.

 

[Seajay]

I guess a hiker was found dead today after he didn't return yesterday. He was hiking in the desert with the temps upwards to 120. Not everyone waits til it cools down. California Boy is right, people do what they wanna do when they wanna do it out here. Sometimes they pay the price though for not thinking it through.

 

[zwiebel]

I'm very sad to hear about the 19 'HotShot' firefighters killed in Arizona. My sincere condolences to all their families and loved ones.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23123817

In California Pasadena seems to be worst affected at the moment. There is a wildfire tracker here but I don't have flash on my tablet. Maybe someone else can take a look and see if it's useful?
http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/_national/wildfire_tracker/index.html?SITE=AP

This one looks about the best to me, with current info as well as previous fires, a map and it's all for SoCal.
http://cdfdata.fire.ca.gov/incidents/incidents_current

 

[Grainne Dhu]

I'm very sad to hear about the 19 'HotShot' firefighters killed in Arizona. My sincere condolences to all their families and loved ones.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-23123817

In California Pasadena seems to be worst affected at the moment. There is a wildfire tracker here but I don't have flash on my tablet. Maybe someone else can take a look and see if it's useful?
http://hosted.ap.org/specials/interactives/_national/wildfire_tracker/index.html?SITE=AP

This one looks about the best to me, with current info as well as previous fires, a map and it's all for SoCal.
http://cdfdata.fire.ca.gov/incidents/incidents_current

I will be very interested to find out what happened to those 19 hotshots.

You may find two books of interest. The first is Young Men and Fire written by Norman Maclean about the 1949 Mann Gulch Fire that claimed the lives of 13 firefighters, most of them WWII veteran paratroopers. Norman Maclean spent 25 years hiking in to the site of the fire before he started writing a book about it. The book took 14 years to research and write. It is no doubt the most detailed account of the disaster that exists.

The second is Fire on the Montain written by John Maclean (Norman Maclean's son) about the South Canyon Fire that killed 14 hotshots. There were eerie similarities about some of the strategic problems during the Mann Gulch Fire and the South Canyon Fire.

The little news coverage I've read about the Arizona fire suggests that some of the same strategic problems may have existed in this event as well.

Neither book is a read for someone who doesn't have a strong stomach. And yet both books are beautifully written and, in my opinion, fitting memoirs of those who died.

They did not die in vain. Their legacies are improvements in policies and procedures for fighting wildland fires and indeed in deciding which fires should be fought and which allowed to burn.

 

[zwiebel]

It's crisis situations where ordinary people are completely reliant on authorities.

Fires are affecting San Bernardino too. Where some people have viewed authorities as a 'hassle'. I don't now about them, but if my house was ever threatened by fire, I'd want firefighters or police with authority to save me. You wouldn't catch me relying on a pair of gates (the real kind or the barriers of the mind). Luckily, the world is full of people who are heroes when it comes to saving the lives and property of strangers, often for no financial reward.

Co-operation is the keyword here. Co-operation to help make the world a better, safer place for everyone. You are either in or out when it comes to that. Sitting on the fence is no good - it can turn to ashes right beneath a person, in the blink of an eye.

 

[Seajay]

My heart is heavy with the loss of the 18 HotShot Firefighters. Something went terribly wrong for them to get caught in that after all their advanced training. Their fire retardent covers didn't do the job they needed to have done. I think they were surrounded by fire when winds shifted and they found themselves trapped in it.

They all sound like exceptional men and they died heros. Giving their lives to save wildlife, the ecology and any homes that might be threatened. 3 of them were from this area. All wanted to be firefighters from an early age. Two had fathers who were Fire Captains at different city Fire Stations. God Bless them.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

It's crisis situations where ordinary people are completely reliant on authorities.

Fires are affecting San Bernardino too. Where some people have viewed authorities as a 'hassle'. I don't now about them, but if my house was ever threatened by fire, I'd want firefighters or police with authority to save me. You wouldn't catch me relying on a pair of gates (the real kind or the barriers of the mind). Luckily, the world is full of people who are heroes when it comes to saving the lives and property of strangers, often for no financial reward.

Co-operation is the keyword here. Co-operation to help make the world a better, safer place for everyone. You are either in or out when it comes to that. Sitting on the fence is no good - it can turn to ashes right beneath a person, in the blink of an eye.

One of the lessons of the Mann Gulch Fire is that 13 firefighters and WWII veterans died saving... nothing. The area they were fighting to save was completely uninhabited and there was no threat to human habitations at all. Ever since then, one of the things that the authorities usually make crystal clear is that no house, no matter how expensive and opulent, is worth the life of a single firefighter. Get out while you can because if we have to let your house burn down to save firefighter lives, we will.

People have cited the fact that horses will run back into a burning stable as some sort of proof of their lack of mental capacity but they overlook the fact that humans, with our supposedly superior mental faculties, will do much the same thing. In the face of an oncoming threat, too many people reflexively cling to things that will not cry over them if they are caught, things like houses and vehicles and belongings. If it won't cry over you if you die, it's not worth risking your life for, in my opinion.

Watching human behaviour in the face of an imminent threat has given me a lot of respect for the truly awful decisions that people will make when they are in a panic. Another example, former French ambassador to the USSR Maurice Dejean who was caught by a KGB swallow trap (a pretty young woman who lures the target into sexual misconduct and then threatens to make it public knowledge). When the trap was sprung, Dejean started revealing trade secrets to his KGB handler in order to keep the secret from his wife.

In other words, Dejean committed treason (a capital crime) in order to hide adultery (at most, a risk of divorce). When Charles de Gaulle recalled Dejean to Paris, he famously said "Alors, Dejean, on baise maintenant?" ("So, Dejean, you enjoy women?")

More and more, I am coming to think that one factor in Bob's disappearance was panic on the part of one or more of his family members.

 

[believe09]

My heart breaks for the firefighters and all who loved them. It is very difficult to know what to say that will do them justice-I seem to be at a loss for words a lot lately.

 

[believe09]

I did want to resurrect some pieces of information that might contribute to the discussion regarding Bob's keys and glasses. They are snippets, but they are food for thought. I was combing through the posts from IS and I came upon these two posts:

The first was in response to this comment by another poster:

Originally Posted by Kansasgirl
Do they know for sure that the SIL is telling the truth and BOB didn't go with him?? They could have left together earlier then he says he did,- Bob went with him, locking up the house, (taking the keys and wallet with him thinking that they are going shopping with the SIL's car (most people has the car and house key on the same chain that is why his car key is missing). Something could have happened between leaving the house together and the SIL showing up at Home Depot by himself. Just a random throught....
I just pray that Bob is OK, poor Fontelle she seems to be so heart broken :-(

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August 4 2009
CA Native (RB who self disclosed her identity)

I don't know exactly what they are looking at but, know we are all expecting to be "called-in". I can NOT imagine my Bro-in-law being involved.
"SIL" has helped our parents with repairs many times throughout the years. Dad did not like having strangers performing minor repairs and used to be more able do all this stuff himself.
Dad would not normally go on "Home Depot runs" whenever SIL was helping with repairs. I remember Dad often complained about all the constant PA noise and difficulty getting someone to help you at Home Depot, so doubt he would go there unless he absolutely had to.

His whole set of keys have not been found, as far as I know.

My heart is breaking for Fontelle -- she's such sweet and sincere lady.
I wish they would have found each other a year ago.
Mourning the loss of our own Mother last year might have been easier for all of our family if we could have seen Dad as happy as he has been since Fontelle came back into his life.

Thank you for sharing all your thoughts and prayers.
This is such a surreal and numbing experience for our family.
I pray he is safe and will return home soon!

This statement stopped me for a moment-it is specifically worded so it seems, then, that some of Bob's keys may have been found. Huh.

And then we have PB's statement regarding his glasses:

August 12, 2009
CA Native1 (PB, self disclosed her identity)

He did NOT take the cell phone, as he did not know how to answer it, let alone make a call.

One of those pair of glasses was purchased in May/June of this year, but he did not have bifocals put in them, so he had to carry his old glasses in order to read. Did not get the impression from him that his prescription had changed much.

We do NOT know where POI lives now, she just kept telling him she was homeless.

D did NOT have a debit card, he did NOT like them. He would have probably gone to one of his banks and withdrawn money and that did NOT happen that day that I am aware of.

D only ate twice a day and sometimes would NOT have his breakfast until early afternoon. That is an excellent question, don't know if there were any dirty dishes which would have answered that question, but there have been way too many people staying there since.

Spoke to TES this evening and we are getting things moving in a forward direction.

If he hid money in the house, don't know where he would have hid it.

So does that mean the Bob wore one pair of glasses and always carried another pair with him?

 

[Opie]

Had not seen those posts from IS. Wow! It's a long way from "...heart is breaking for Fontelle, etc." to "said they should have thrown my azz out on the street."

There's a whole lot of disconnect in those statements.

 

[believe09]

Had not seen those posts from IS. Wow! It's a long way from "...heart is breaking for Fontelle, etc." to "said they should have thrown my azz out on the street."

There's a whole lot of disconnect in those statements.

You have no idea Opie...for example, PB claims to have been the one to have told Mrs Harrod to change the locks for her own safety.

IIRC, JuM claimed credit for that as well.

I think what fascinated me the most was the anger that erupted when Fontelle hired representation. Yet, RB claims it was at their urging in order to help her navigate trust law, and clearly RB/PB hired representation immediately upon Bob's disappearance. By 7/29 at the latest.

CA Native again/ RB

F is confused about Californiacommunity property law as it relates to probate and trust matters. We suggested last week that, since she may not want to "take our word for it" about our understanding of her rights as a new wife not named in the trust, she might want to seek legal advise in these matters that she expressed concern and confusion about.

And of course, there was the post about the daughters trying to get access to Bob's money to reimburse Mrs Harrod for her moving expenses and to raise a reward.

This one got to me the most I confess:

August 11, 2009
CA Native1/PB

(snip)
14.) My Dad was a little down after F left that I tried to get him to make a reservation and fly to MO to help her pack and they could come back together. He told me he could NOT do that as there was so much to be done at the house. At that point we had at least gotten rid of my Mom's clothes and the rest I figured they could do together and of course we would have been there to help as well.

Just think-if Bob had taken her advice, he wouldnt have disappeared. There would have been no heated family meeting where documents were disclosed. I would give a lot to turn back the clock, and I bet they would too.

 

[Opie]

Call me skeptical, but I wonder if that conversation about Bob flying back to MO with F ever happened. All that talk about helping seems contradictory to the attitudes displayed. Again, JMO.

 

[zwiebel]

I find it quite surprising that two daughters are trying to claim culpability in trying to frighten Fontelle into going back to Missouri, just days after Bob disappeared. Because that's what I think all that nonsense about changing the locks was all about - an attempt to scare an elderly lady, thinly disguised as concern for her welfare.

If any of Bob's bio-family were truly concerned about Fontelle's welfare, they would have been there helping her highlight Bob's case in the days immediately following his disappearance; not running off to consult lawyers about how to get her out of the house and take control of Bob's estate. As for JeM - his silence speaks volumes, imo.

I am a little short of patience at the moment. After giving warnings left right and center, I have been in the garden and got really bad sunburn on the back of my neck, thanks to a DIY hair disaster that has left skin exposed that has never seen the sun before.

 

[zwiebel]

Has anybody noticed how RB's 'Fontelle is confused about California Community property law' post is very similar to the letter she sent to Bob?

The same kind of 'legalese' and haughty coldness? When you take into account the age/vulnerability of the people she was speaking/writing too, they sound....well, just bullying, to me.

 

[Opie]

Has anybody noticed how RB's 'Fontelle is confused about California Community property law' post is very similar to the letter she sent to Bob?

The same kind of 'legalese' and haughty coldness? When you take into account the age/vulnerability of the people she was speaking/writing too, they sound....well, just bullying, to me.

Amen! Bullying is the word. Thank you for clarifying what I was thinking. Maybe it's just as well I never read the IS posts. Bad for one's blood pressure, reading all that "stuff." (nice word for it)

 

[zwiebel]

It is disturbing to me because it was done openly - you'd only do that if you thought it was normal and reasonable and others would understand. If those statements and that kind of letter to Bob's attorney/financial advisor was 'normal' to Bob's family, then it makes me wonder what might have gone on behind closed doors.

Specifically, at that 'NOT heated' family meeting. Where RB was 'quick to temper', I think her sister said?

 

[Grainne Dhu]

My heart is heavy with the loss of the 18 HotShot Firefighters. Something went terribly wrong for them to get caught in that after all their advanced training. Their fire retardent covers didn't do the job they needed to have done. I think they were surrounded by fire when winds shifted and they found themselves trapped in it.

They all sound like exceptional men and they died heros. Giving their lives to save wildlife, the ecology and any homes that might be threatened. 3 of them were from this area. All wanted to be firefighters from an early age. Two had fathers who were Fire Captains at different city Fire Stations. God Bless them.

BBM

Those fire shelters are not actually flame retardant and they aren't designed to be. They are actually heat resistant. Under the best conditions, they give a 50% chance of survival. Which is why they are the strategy of last resort.

The problem is the same one backpackers face: hotshots often have to hike into the area where they are establishing firelines and every ounce has to be considered in terms of the trade off between additional safety vs the drain on energy required to carry it.

The theory is that in a blowup, the fire itself is creating a strong updraft, so if a trapped firefighter can just survive the heat and oxygen depletion they are unlikely to have embers falling on them.

This last ditch method of survival came from the Mann Gulch Fire where one of the survivors deliberately lit a backfire, waited by it and when the blowup came, stepped into the good black (charred ground that no longer has any fuel source) and burrowed into the ground as deeply as possible. He survived where 13 other men did not.

It was a stroke of the genius of pure desperation because no one had ever tried anything like that before. Sadly, he was reviled for surviving in the investigation of the incident. It was another 10 years before research showed that his moment of genius really did work and could have saved all 13 of his fellow firefighters had they joined him.

The reason why fire shelters are not designed to be fireproof is because of weight. If a firefighter is caught in a blowup, their best chance of survival is to run to a safe(r) place. In the South Canyon Fire, 12 of the 14 people killed were hotshots. All 12 were found with their tools either under their bodies or right next to them, indicating that they can carried their tools with them.

In the investigation of the incident, an expert demonstrated that if the 12 who died had simply dropped their tools, it would have increased their speed such that they would have survived (by running uphill and crossing over the crest of the ridge, as the survivors did).

Since hotshots typically never believe that they themselves will be killed fighting fires, it is important to keep the last resort fire shelter weight down so that they will continue to carry them (versus "mysteriously" losing them at the first opportunity). Let's be real, we're talking about young adrenaline junkies here--of course they don't think they could be the one to die because they just don't believe it. In the worst case scenario, every ounce they have to carry can be the difference between life and death.

It is a tough choice and I'm glad I'm not the one to have to make it. It is a choice, though, informed by a century of intensive research and compilation of statistics.

 

[Grainne Dhu]

So does that mean the Bob wore one pair of glasses and always carried another pair with him?

SBM

Not as uncommon as it may seem. The learning curve for using bifocal or gradient (no line) lenses is fairly steep and, after I failed to learn how to use them efficiently, I was told that about 60-70% of users fail. The older the person when they first get bifocal or gradient lenses, the more likely they are to fail to learn to use them efficiently.

I could use them but it was at the cost of neck and upper back pain from tipping my head back to read through the lower portion of the lenses. I was told that this is the most common reason people decide to get separate glasses for each prescription.

So Bob may well have had one pair of glasses for long vision tasks such as driving and another pair for short vision tasks like reading. And then there is that pesky in between area where neither pair works well and one resorts to demanding one's spouse clip one's toenails.

I'm pretty certain that task was written into our marriage vows, somewhere in the fine print. <LOL>

 

[Laughing]

Grainne, OT but we're talking about it!

My granddaddy was Park Service. My Dad's first job was fire in Saguaro National Monument.

Young Men & Fire is on the nightstand in the guest room. Guests keep taking it with them & mailing it back, saying "Wow! I never knew any of this stuff!"

William Least Heat Moon traveled up the Missouri near Mann Gulch in River Horse, too.

Bandelier, a whoops! of a whole 'nuther sort.

We're not prepared when a hot shot crew gets outsmarted by a fire....



Now let's find Bob & bring him home to Fontelle!

Laughing

 

[believe09]

One of the reasons I brought up the glasses post is because there were a number of pairs of glasses found in the house according to the daughters. The number PB mentioned was 3, but she said she couldnt be sure.

So are we looking for 5-6 pair or was Bob removed from the house with neither his regular glasses or the ones he used as readers :waitasec:

As for the post about the keys-I think we are finally teasing out some information regarding Bob's personal set of keys. I think RB's post leads me to believe that there were keys found and there were keys missing. Of Bob's keys that is.

Car keys, safety deposit box keys, letter box keys, keys to the homes that he owned...which were still in the house from his personal key ring do you think?

We have talked over and over, especially on the SAR thread, at the need for solid identifiers.

What was found in the house? All of his glasses and some of his keys? :banghead:

One additional point about posts from IS on the day Fontelle returned:

August 11, 2009
CA Native1/PB

10.) As far as the comment that the house was full of family and relatives were in the house upon F's arrival. The only TWO people there were my sisters and one was arriving at the same time. The news frenzy was absolutely ridiculous and I left and went to my nephew's house.
11.) If it has not been for the three of us being there to let F in, don't know how she would have gotten in.

Didn't Fontelle have her own set of keys? If not, didnt trusted neighbor still have keys?