CA CA - Bob Harrod, 81, Orange County, 27 July 2009 - # 3

[Montjoy]

Cloudajo, I think you have done a superb job of summing up the key points here. One possible addition, in my eyes, would be regarding his children's subsequent smear campaign and all of the goose-chases they've encouraged/red herrings they've dropped: there could be some fear among the sisters who are not directly involved that they could be named as accessories after the fact. To which I can only beg any daughter of Bob's who still has some love for him: If you do not trust LE, please approach your lawyer immediately to find out how you can share your information with LE safely. You have a lot to gain by giving your dad a little bit of justice, both spiritually and likely materially.

I think another reason to consider the daughters' actions suspect is that their legal efforts to take control of Bob's assets and the trust was purportedly done to secure funding for a reward. I have yet to see any evidence of that reward. I would have expected three adult children to be able to gather up some sort of funding for a nominal reward at any rate (especially if they had funds to pay lawyers in the trust case...)-- but to fight a legal case to have someone else's money to do so, and then to fail to take action, is reprehensible, and I wish actionable.

 

[Cubby]

I hate to have to say I agree Cloudajo, but I do. I would add to your #7, the attempts to control the assets began prior to Bobs becoming reunited with Fontelle.

IMO it would be very interesting to see Georgia's will. I think it is public record, if anyone can get a copy we can link it provided 'private personal info' is redacted. I can't help but be curious to see how Georgia's wishes coincide with statements made by the daughters or if that too is more mistruths.....

jmo

 

[Montjoy]

ETA: UNLESS there would be obvious wounds on Bobs skeleton which would be clearly indicative of homicide- in which case, then for whomever is responsible it would be better he not be found.

Just speculation/JMO of course -- but I've always guessed that what most likely happened was that Bob was either garroted or suffocated while napping (hence, perhaps, the need to change his sheets that night?). Although Bob's health seemed good for his age, I do not think he would be able to put up much resistance; such murder methods would also likely make minimal mess/leave little evidence for LE, and would avoid a face-to-face situation when the murder was committed by one who knew the victim. I do wonder if there was any sort of conversation or ultimatum that preceded the final decision to kill him.

As for whether someone involved would prefer his body to be found or not: I think that many people hold forensic examiners in high esteem now, what with the media representations of people like Quincy in the 70's to today's CSI franchises. I could imagine anyone thinking it better to allow as much decomposition as possible before discovery, if they were concerned about a crime being attached to them.

 

[Cubby]

Just speculation/JMO of course -- but I've always guessed that what most likely happened was that Bob was either garroted or suffocated while napping (hence, perhaps, the need to change his sheets that night?). Although Bob's health seemed good for his age, I do not think he would be able to put up much resistance; such murder methods would also likely make minimal mess/leave little evidence for LE, and would avoid a face-to-face situation when the murder was committed by one who knew the victim. I do wonder if there was any sort of conversation or ultimatum that preceded the final decision to kill him.

As for whether someone involved would prefer his body to be found or not: I think that many people hold forensic examiners in high esteem now, what with the media representations of people like Quincy in the 70's to today's CSI franchises. I could imagine anyone thinking it better to allow as much decomposition as possible before discovery, if they were concerned about a crime being attached to them.

I've thought the same, but wondered if perhaps Bobs neck was broken in a struggle. Frail bones due to age, and perhaps even suffocation or using a ligature of somekind could cause a fracture in his neck. An ME would likely be able to determine the age of any possible fractures.

That one of the daughters changed the sheets when the cleaning lady was there is interesting. Were the sheets changed by the DD prior to or after the cleaning lady? If the suggested theory he was murdered while napping, then the sheets would likely have to be changed prior to the cleaning lady's arrival, no? Because it boggles the mind why there would be any need to change sheets after the cleaning lady arrived when Bob had not returned to the home after her departure that Monday.

It would be interesting to know if the cleaning lady noticed any sheets missing from the home, any rugs or blankets missing from the home.

JMO

 

[ShowMe]

snipped

the attempts to control the assets began prior to Bobs becoming reunited with Fontelle.

I believe this to be a completely false statement.

A valid LINK IS REQUIRED for proof of this statement.
Only a link as the source will do, no more "rumors" please.
Thank you.

 

[Cubby]

I believe this to be a completely false statement.

A valid LINK IS REQUIRED for proof of this statement.
Only a link as the source will do, no more "rumors" please.
Thank you.

I think the info is on the IS forum that went 'poof', however even in the media articles Bobs daughters are quoted as to saying they were seeking info for months on Georgia's and we later learned the bypass trust was a tax benefit. IIRC there are numerous posts Bobs daughters made in various places.

When I sort through the info, I'd be happy to add the link.
Perhaps someone else can add the link? If so, tia!


ETA: I should have stated ASSETS not ESTATE. My bad on the wrong word. I meant to say assets.

 

[ShowMe]

I think the info is on the IS forum that went 'poof', however even in the media articles Bobs daughters are quoted as to saying they were seeking info for months on Georgia's and we later learned the bypass trust was a tax benefit. IIRC there are numerous posts Bobs daughters made in various places.

When I sort through the info, I'd be happy to add the link.
Perhaps someone else can add the link? If so, tia!

That's a good idea because inquiries for information and control of an estate are two totally different things. A link quoting exactly those words would be acceptable.

There is way too much useless fictionalization and too few true facts to believe the direction of this forum. IMHO

Why don't one of you who are intent on slandering Bob's family members make direct contact with the police to get the whole story, instead of inventing it out of thin air?

 

[Montjoy]

There is way too much useless fictionalization and too few true facts to believe the direction of this forum. IMHO

One might say the same about the SiL's account of the day Bob was murdered. It was largely fiction, evinced in its implausibility and evolution. IMHO.

 

[Angelo]

IMO, I think the SIL had the motive, means, and opportunity. I think his wife was either in on the plan (if it was planned) or knew about it shortly thereafter. I think the other 2 daughters either figured it out right away or were told. IMO, they then went on a smear campaign against a number of people and put out mis-information to distract for three reasons: 1) out of loyalty to their sister, 2) lack of respect for their father and anyone who questions them, and 3) a sense of entitlement and their belief that they deserved their father’s money.


It’s a lot of things, including events from the year prior to Bob going missing, but the main things for me are:

1. Lack of response from family in CA the evening/night when Bob had been missing for hours
2. Daughter JM’s statement, “We’re thinking maybe 1, noon?” and post “…before I went dth to get the house ready, linens changed for he and his wife; I started to call all the local hospitals.“ Daughter’s PB’s posts “There was a family meeting on Sunday, it was heated at times, there were NO threats and we all left on good terms” and “Then I realized that my BIL was there and I DID hear him say he was going to the ‘hardware store‘. My dad responded to him in a favorable way.”
3. Shifting timeline
4. Daughters’ glaring omission of timeline clarification in the many dozens of posts on various forums over the past year
5. Daughter JM’s and SIL JM’s later refusal to be interviewed by the media
6. No searches, vigils, reward, or benefits organized by 3 grown daughters/SIL/grandson - when they are all from the area and have a community who would be more than willing to help if asked
7. Unwavering and focused steps to take over control of the estate and trust
8. Bad-mouthing and passive/aggressive comments about their father, his new wife, his new wife’s family, the hairdresser, the PPD, and the media on a public forum
9. An oak display case worth $2,000 given away for free by daughter JM and SIL JM a little over 1 month after Bob disappeared
10. Outrageous use of Facebook and Myspace pages set up for a missing person. Changing the pages after things are pointed out - who would do that?

I find it very curious that now there are references being put out there alluding to childhood abuse (on IS and links on the FB setup for Bob). I think it’s possible this is being used as a last resort to further manipulate people and explain their bad behavior, since none of their other accusations have worked out for them. IMO.

Agree!

Additionally, the "cold feet" theory and the dementia story were used to make it appear Mr. Harrod left on his own.

 

[Fairy1]

I don't recall seeing any evidence of the daughters taking legal steps regarding the estate, but they were clear they were attempting to obtain their mother's will for some time before.

I realize Bob was in charge of the trust after Georgia's death. But I could never understand why the family just didn't consult the attorney. If their mother's will specifically named them as beneficiaries, they shouldn't have needed to wait for Bob to provide that information and the details.

 

[Cubby]

Thanks Fairy1. Estate was the wrong choice of word, I should have said assets. I will correct the appropriate pp's.

 

[Cubby]

That's a good idea because inquiries for information and control of an estate are two totally different things. A link quoting exactly those words would be acceptable.

There is way too much useless fictionalization and too few true facts to believe the direction of this forum. IMHO

Why don't one of you who are intent on slandering Bob's family members make direct contact with the police to get the whole story, instead of inventing it out of thin air?

The following quote is carried over from thread 1. Post #556 page 23.

I seem to recall some of what was posted on IS but has since been deleted: Some time after the passing of Bob's wife of 59 years and after being reminded by his lawyer of his obligations as trustee, Bob failed to ever report certain aspects of the mother's estate to her named beneficiaries as required by law. His first wife had passed more than a year before Fontelle came along. He called a meeting in order to meet the requirement, before Fontelle's return. Media reports differed from what I recall.

This is only my best recollection (TIOMBR).

This is what I was thinking of.... I, unlike yourself ShowMe, wasn't following Bobs case when this former IS thread had gone *poof* but those of you who were able to read it, clearly recall this, no?

hth

 

[Fairy1]

The following quote is carried over from thread 1. Post #556 page 23.

This is what I was thinking of.... I, unlike yourself ShowMe, wasn't following Bobs case when this former IS thread had gone *poof* but those of you who were able to read it, clearly recall this, no?

hth

You are right, Cubby. The daughters made no secret of their attempting to obtain this information from Bob. Whether it goes to greed or to sentimentality is the question.

There is little doubt, at this point, that more than one of Bob's children benefitted from his "wealth and generosity."

 

[Montjoy]

Agree!

Additionally, the "cold feet" theory and the dementia story were used to make it appear Mr. Harrod left on his own.

Considering Bob's doctor said that he did *not* have dementia, I wonder if statements fed to LE about him having it would constitute 'slander' (since the subject was mentioned on this page).

 

[ShowMe]

I don't recall seeing any evidence of the daughters taking legal steps regarding the estate, but they were clear they were attempting to obtain their mother's will for some time before.

I realize Bob was in charge of the trust after Georgia's death. But I could never understand why the family just didn't consult the attorney. If their mother's will specifically named them as beneficiaries, they shouldn't have needed to wait for Bob to provide that information and the details.

Any attorney would be in professional conflict of interest to advise anyone other than their own client. Beneficiaries would not have been clients of Bob's attorney.
Providing copies of reports or documents to beneficiaries in a timely manner is one of the required responsibilities of a trustee. Bob's failure to provide reports for more than a year has no bearing on beneficiary control of assets. It is the trustee's responsibility and obligation to perform this duty.

The link or a posted retraction of the slanderous statement is still expected.
Thank you.

 

[Montjoy]

The link or a posted retraction of the slanderous statement is still expected.
Thank you.

'Slander' refers to verbal, not written, statements that are known to be false and used to defame. It also does not apply to opinion, which is a protected form of speech. You would be thinking of 'libel', and I don't see anything on this page that would remotely qualify as 'libel' any more than your accusing someone here of slander.

 

[Cubby]

Any attorney would be in professional conflict of interest to advise anyone other than their own client. Beneficiaries would not have been clients of Bob's attorney.
Providing copies of reports or documents to beneficiaries in a timely manner is one of the required responsibilities of a trustee. Bob's failure to provide reports for more than a year has no bearing on beneficiary control of assets. It is the trustee's responsibility and obligation to perform this duty.

The link or a posted retraction of the slanderous statement is still expected.
Thank you.

Your question has been answered. Go back and reread back a few posts.

 

[Fairy1]

Any attorney would be in professional conflict of interest to advise anyone other than their own client. Beneficiaries would not have been clients of Bob's attorney.
Providing copies of reports or documents to beneficiaries in a timely manner is one of the required responsibilities of a trustee. Bob's failure to provide reports for more than a year has no bearing on beneficiary control of assets. It is the trustee's responsibility and obligation to perform this duty.

Well then, the daughters should have sought their own legal counsel long before Bob married Fontelle and went missing. Did they just sit back and wait? If it was so important to them, they should have taken action as soon as Bob said he wanted a "break."

The link or a posted retraction of the slanderous statement is still expected.
Thank you.

Slanderous? Really? There have been many, many statements made that could be considered slanderous since Bob went missing - most against Bob and made by his own daughters. Do you demand the same proof from them or is it just from those who cast suspicion upon their motives?

 

[Montjoy]

Because it boggles the mind why there would be any need to change sheets after the cleaning lady arrived when Bob had not returned to the home after her departure that Monday.

The posting about the DD changing the sheets is here --

http://rimoftheworld.net/discuss/166/53721?page=4

It would appear that the sheets were changed after the cleaning lady would have left. I don't think that, had the cleaning lady arrived after the murder had been committed (let's say, in the bed), that there would necessarily have been obvious evidence of a crime. (That is not to say that one might not have still thought it prudent to change the sheets in case of non-obvious evidence.)

Notwithstanding:

-- after a 6 month period in which Bob had asked his children to stay away from him,
-- shortly after a heated argument between Bob and his daughters,
-- the day of a visit by a cleaning lady, and
-- Bob being missing,

how could his daughter have thought it important enough to drive all of that way to change Bob's sheets, which should have been changed anyhow? Weren't there more pressing concerns? During the six months that Bob had asked them to keep away, did he still have his daughter drive all that way to change his sheets regularly?

All JMO.

 

[Cubby]

According to the SSDI Georgia Harrod passed away March 15, 2008.
HARROD, GEORGIA M 17 Aug 1931 15 Mar 2008 (V) 76 92870 (Placentia, Orange, CA)(none

http://ssdi.rootsweb.ancestry.com/cgi-bin/ssdi.cgi



The family will was filed with the courts 4-1-2008
GEORGIA M HARROD DECEDENT OTHER PROBATE MATTER
30-2008-00068771-PR-OP-LJC 04/01/2008

30-2008-00068771-PR-OP-LJC
HARROD-SAFEKEEPING WILL 04/01/2008 PROBATE OTHER PROBATE MATTER

http://www.occourts.org/online-services/case-access/

What we know about bypass trust (carried over from thread 2 - originally posted by Cloudajo)



How a Bypass Trust Works
"Without a bypass trust, sometimes referred to as a credit shelter trust or an exemption equivalent trust, assets owned by the first spouse transfer upon death to the surviving spouse tax-free," says Ferriera. But that may simply increase the surviving spouse's estate when there is only one exemption, which could trigger an unnecessary estate tax. If assets are passed to a bypass trust, however, no estate tax would be owed on assets of $2 million or less.

A bypass trust is typically created in a living trust or a will, and the assets are then managed within the trust, says Ferriera. After the bypass trust has been funded, "the balance of the estate is usually transferred to the surviving spouse who is a U.S. citizen either outright, or put into a Qualified Terminable Interest Property (QTIP) trust to take advantage of the unlimited marital deduction" which pays income to the surviving spouse during that individual's lifetime; the remainder typically will pass to children when the surviving spouse dies.

"When the second spouse dies, assets in the bypass trust can be transferred to whomever the first spouse decided would be the ultimate beneficiary when the trust was created," says Ferriera. Most people name their spouse the primary beneficiary and their children the secondary beneficiaries, he adds.

[snipped]
Selecting the Right Trustees
Trustees are determined when the trust or will creates the bypass trust, and most spouses name each other the primary trustees of their bypass trust, says Ferriera.
However, "we highly recommend naming a co-trustee, such as an adult child who's savvy with money to have some continuity-particularly since the original document might have been written years ago," he says.

http://www.investorguide.com/igu-article-202-trusts-bypass-trusts-for-married-couples.html


I will be honest, there are no court docs between 4-1-2008 and after Bob went missing. ETA: At least none that I have yet found.....

I have yet to find anything to support the allegations Bob was not providing any paperwork he was legally obligated to provide. No link to support that........


The above info on bypass trusts tells us the first deceased spouses assets belong to the surviving spouse until after the surviving spouse passes. While Bob was living where is the link/evidence he was to provide anyone with information regarding his assets?

IF, if there was some kind of possible fraud, or 'elder abuse' as alleged/claimed why then did the daughters NOT seek this information from the courts as further evidence any abuse existed? It seems several calls were made, but eventually proved unfounded -or- dismissed/closed until the time of Bobs disappearance.

Hmmm...

jmo