CA - Joey, Summer, Gianni, Joseph Jr McStay Murders - Feb 4th 2010 #2

[oceanblueeyes]

I wonder given the computer searches, whether JM had mentioned a trip to Mexico? Maybe that is where CM got the idea.

It's always made me wonder if CM was over at their home at the time the searches were made?

He could have asked them if he could search something real quick and Joey said 'sure.'

We have had friends or family members ask to do the same occasionally and neither my hubby or I looked at the history to see what they had searched or where.

It was usually just wanting a recipe ..lol...or wanting to know an answer to something we happened to be discussing at the time but we never looked over their shoulder since they were trusted close friends or family members. Now everyone uses their own cell phones to look up anything

Those searches never made any sense whatsoever to me due to Summer being adamant she would never take her little sons to Mexico.

Did either Summer or Joey ever tell any family members they were planning on taking the kids to Mexico?

Something has always been OFF about those particular searches since Summer made it clear she would never do this.

We really don't know who was sitting behind the computer when those searches were made.

I do know in other cases the suspect did use the victims computers to make it look like it was done by the victims.

Imo

 

[missy1974]

My understanding of that incident was that MSM should have been paid by CM as Joey paid CM for the whole deliverable ready to ship including supplier costs.

Instead CM stiffed the supplier.

So then JM had to write a cheque to MSM which he gave to CM to give to them. I think they did get this cheque?

IMO the fraudulent MSM cheques were not because CM wanted to cash them himself, but because JM would no longer be around to pay MSM and CM was such a pathetic crook that he decided to steal these small amounts to pay his own debts.

Again this shows clear guilty knowledge that JM would not be around to pay off the suppliers

That is why the defence has to object to this stuff so furiously.

BBM

I am strictly talking about before Joey disappeared. According to testimony, maybe a month before.

In the testimony from Sequieda yesterday, he made it clear that they were ALWAYS paid by Joey, that they would not have been in business with CM, CM was only there because Joey was paying them. It was obvious that he didn't like CM, didn't trust CM, wouldn't have been in business with CM under any other circumstances.

I'm not sure if I'm not being clear or what haha But before Joey even went missing, Sequieda says he heard CM say he cashed the cheque and used it for materials. That doesn't make any sense because Joey never paid CM for CM to pay MSM, he paid MSM directly from EIP, otherwise, according to Sequieda they wouldn't be doing business with them at all.

So either him hearing CM say he used the money for materials is not true... or CM somehow stole the cheque and cashed it, which would be fraud. Or maybe Joey did give him some signed cheques? I find that unlikely though, I don't think Joey was that naive.

 

[cocomod]

You know what I can never understand? Okay, say this is about money and greed, why kill the kids and wife? Wiping out an entire family takes the motive to a whole new level for me.

 

[mrjitty]

BBM

I am strictly talking about before Joey disappeared. According to testimony, maybe a month before.

In the testimony from Sequieda yesterday, he made it clear that they were ALWAYS paid by Joey, that they would not have been in business with CM, CM was only there because Joey was paying them. It was obvious that he didn't like CM, didn't trust CM, wouldn't have been in business with CM under any other circumstances.

I'm not sure if I'm not being clear or what haha But before Joey even went missing, Sequieda says he heard CM say he cashed the cheque and used it for materials. That doesn't make any sense because Joey never paid CM for CM to pay MSM, he paid MSM directly from EIP, otherwise, according to Sequieda they wouldn't be doing business with them at all.

So either him hearing CM say he used the money for materials is not true... or CM somehow stole the cheque and cashed it, which would be fraud. Or maybe Joey did give him some signed cheques? I find that unlikely though, I don't think Joey was that naive.

Isn't there an email from Joey to Sequieda about all this?

In that email, IIRC Joey says he already paid CM and that included the MSM costs. But as CM had not paid MSM then Joey would have to pay them (as usual).

Main point is, I don't think CM had cashed a MSM cheque. Rather he had ripped off Joey by not paying MSM from his contracted $$

i got the impression from the email this had happened many times before

 

[missy1974]

The state will not call all 184 witnesses. They have just notified the defense they have 184 witnesses who are able and willing to testify.

They will decide on a day by basis who they are going to call and who they feel will not be necessary to be called as the trial goes along.

Some could be rebutal witnesses if the defense puts on their own CIC. Sometimes those can turnout to be very important witnesses for the state.

The state has no legal obligation to tell the defense as to which ones on their list will be called. All they have a legal obligation to do is make sure the defense has been given the full witness list before trial which they have.

I haven't seen anything thus far that would be an appellate issue for CM if he is convicted.

Imo

When they were arguing this yesterday, the defense said that they are supposed to be given a witness list with contact information, etc. 30 days before trial. They only got it 2 weeks ago, and were told that their contact info is all of the documents they have, like police reports, etc. The defense said that some of that contact info is from 2010, and of course is no longer correct addresses and phone numbers.

I hold the prosecution to a higher standard, and they should be bending over backwards to get this info to the defense so if and when there is a conviction, there is no reason to appeal. JMO

 

[Force Ten]

Cathy Russon on Twitter

#McStay - The search warrant included the green dodge truck in the driveway. Inside was a soccer uniform, kids' clothing, no car seats. There was a video camera in the dodge. A Nikon and Kodak camera also seized from inside the home.

This is damn interesting. So either the seats were removed or there was one set between vehicles. So why did they end up in the Trooper if the latter is the case?

 

[mrjitty]

This is damn interesting. So either the seats were removed or there was one set between vehicles. So why did they end up in the Trooper if the latter is the case?

Exactly!

Unless you believe summer went shopping with the kids rolling around in the back, then the carseats must have been switched to the trooper.

 

[Force Ten]

It's always made me wonder if CM was over at their home at the time the searches were made?

He could have asked them if he could search something real quick and Joey said 'sure.'

We have had friends or family members ask to do the same occasionally and neither my hubby or I looked at the history to see what they had searched or where.

It was usually just wanting a recipe ..lol...or wanting to know an answer to something we happened to be discussing at the time but we never looked over their shoulder since they were trusted close friends or family members. Now everyone uses their own cell phones to look up anything

Those searches never made any sense whatsoever to me due to Summer being adamant she would never take her little sons to Mexico.

Did either Summer or Joey ever tell any family members they were planning on taking the kids to Mexico?

Something has always been OFF about those particular searches since Summer made it clear she would never do this.

We really don't know who was sitting behind the computer when those searches were made.

I do know in other cases the suspect did use the victims computers to make it look like it was done by the victims.

Imo

We still have yet to hear from the painter, who's from Mexico. I'm certain he is on the witness list.

 

[missy1974]

Isn't there an email from Joey to Sequieda about all this?

In that email, IIRC Joey says he already paid CM and that included the MSM costs. But as CM had not paid MSM then Joey would have to pay them (as usual).

Main point is, I don't think CM had cashed a MSM cheque. Rather he had ripped off Joey by not paying MSM from his contracted $$

i got the impression from the email this had happened many times before

I would have liked to have read the email myself, which the state didn't introduce and they didn't even ask him about. I wonder if the secretary will be testifying about that?

It still doesn't make any sense to me, Sequieda made it very clear that Joey paid, not CM, ever. CM should never have "owed" MSM money IMO

 

[Plumeria5]

Exactly!

Unless you believe summer went shopping with the kids rolling around in the back, then the carseats must have been switched to the trooper.

Could it be that CM's original plan was to kill Summer and Joey, then take the boys to Mexico, sell them or leave them there? Then changed his mind because he decided they would be able to recognize him?

 

[missy1974]

The car seats...

I had to go back to the timeline to see exactly what Summer did that day..

2:36 pm: Summer's credit card is used to buy beach bags, infant pajamas and a jacket from a Ross store in Vista about a 20 minutes drive from their home. Afternoon - someone uses Summer's card at Ross in Temecula for 4 baby onesies. (source: How the McStay case unfolded)

Feb. 4 - Time could be 2:36pm - This is the last known face-to-face interaction Summer and kids have with friends and family.

Summer:
3:52 pm - Home computer is used to search Craigslist for children's toys. (source: How the McStay case unfolded). There were toys found in the rear compartment of the SUV when found at the border.
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/mcstay-family-comprehensive-timeline.285143/
​

It's all coming back to me why there were so many theories in the beginning lol We are pretty sure there was no way that Joey was home by 2;36pm, so Summer must have taken the truck with the kids. The car seats, well... let's be real here, from everything we have heard about Summer, we know that she was not the typical mom/housewife. In fact, the falling out between her and Mike was because he said something about the kids IIRC. My guess is that they didn't have a lot of 'rules' or structure, they were energetic little boys and she let them kinda do whatever they want lol Who lets their 2 kids under 5 have paint brushes when you are painting a new house? Summer did I can see Summer taking the kids without the car seats, right or wrong, people do it all the time. I've had friends over the years that would throw their kids in the backseat, no car seat, no seat belt.. drove me crazy LOL I would never do it, but others have and do.

What I find most interesting about the timeline is the 3:52 search and knowing that those toys were found in the back of the Trooper. This muddies some "theories". If they were in the back of the Trooper, it has to mean that Joey did eventually get home so she could go pick those up? Or maybe that is what the VM/text was about between Joey/Summer? Asking Joey to stop and get them before he got home? I wonder if they were able to find the toy seller and ask who picked them up and when?

I recall back in the day the theory was that they all went to pick up the toys and maybe went out for dinner, but I don't think there is any evidence that CC's were used after that time at a restaurant or anywhere.

​

 

[Force Ten]

I would have liked to have read the email myself, which the state didn't introduce and they didn't even ask him about. I wonder if the secretary will be testifying about that?

It still doesn't make any sense to me, Sequieda made it very clear that Joey paid, not CM, ever. CM should never have "owed" MSM money IMO

She probably will be called, Imes mentioned her name quite a few times as if he's very familiar with her.

Joseph paid MSM, true, but JS said Chase hand delivered checks "half a dozen times".

 

[Force Ten]

Some of you have a bit more experience at trial watching (@oceanblueeyes) and I'm curious about the State's narrative of the family being killed in the home. Does the State have to prove to the jury that this is the case? Their contention is that Chase had opportunity (pings and phone going dark). The defense is hammering home that there was no blood in the home. Wouldn't it be enough without this theory to convince them that Chase was the killer? We all have more access to info than the jury does at this point and have so for years, yet no one has really produced a viable conclusion as to how he was to able pull it off as the State purports. Could he really get off if the State can't prove opportunity?

 

[missy1974]

She probably will be called, Imes mentioned her name quite a few times as if he's very familiar with her.

Joseph paid MSM, true, but JS said Chase hand delivered checks "half a dozen times".

I'm guessing they will as well. When the lawyers were arguing about his testimony, the defense asked if the Senior Sequieda would be called to testify, and the pro's didn't say he would or wouldn't be, but I got the impression he won't be. Carmen is probably the go to when it came to emails and billing and maybe she can clear up some of the questions I have ;-)

 

[oceanblueeyes]

The car seats...

I had to go back to the timeline to see exactly what Summer did that day..

2:36 pm: Summer's credit card is used to buy beach bags, infant pajamas and a jacket from a Ross store in Vista about a 20 minutes drive from their home. Afternoon - someone uses Summer's card at Ross in Temecula for 4 baby onesies. (source: How the McStay case unfolded)

Feb. 4 - Time could be 2:36pm - This is the last known face-to-face interaction Summer and kids have with friends and family.

Summer:
3:52 pm - Home computer is used to search Craigslist for children's toys. (source: How the McStay case unfolded). There were toys found in the rear compartment of the SUV when found at the border.
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/mcstay-family-comprehensive-timeline.285143/
​

It's all coming back to me why there were so many theories in the beginning lol We are pretty sure there was no way that Joey was home by 2;36pm, so Summer must have taken the truck with the kids. The car seats, well... let's be real here, from everything we have heard about Summer, we know that she was not the typical mom/housewife. In fact, the falling out between her and Mike was because he said something about the kids IIRC. My guess is that they didn't have a lot of 'rules' or structure, they were energetic little boys and she let them kinda do whatever they want lol Who lets their 2 kids under 5 have paint brushes when you are painting a new house? Summer did I can see Summer taking the kids without the car seats, right or wrong, people do it all the time. I've had friends over the years that would throw their kids in the backseat, no car seat, no seat belt.. drove me crazy LOL I would never do it, but others have and do.

What I find most interesting about the timeline is the 3:52 search and knowing that those toys were found in the back of the Trooper. This muddies some "theories". If they were in the back of the Trooper, it has to mean that Joey did eventually get home so she could go pick those up? Or maybe that is what the VM/text was about between Joey/Summer? Asking Joey to stop and get them before he got home? I wonder if they were able to find the toy seller and ask who picked them up and when?

I recall back in the day the theory was that they all went to pick up the toys and maybe went out for dinner, but I don't think there is any evidence that CC's were used after that time at a restaurant or anywhere.

​

What it does clearly show it was just a typical normal day that so many families do going about their daily lives.

Imo none of them had a clue at that time this would be the last day of their lives for all of them.

Yes...no doubt Summer liked spoiling her little boys...most likely so did Joey and thought they could do no wrong. Lol

She was like many mommies nowadays more than ever who love pampering their children.

Imo

 

[cobalt sky]

The car seats...

I had to go back to the timeline to see exactly what Summer did that day..

2:36 pm: Summer's credit card is used to buy beach bags, infant pajamas and a jacket from a Ross store in Vista about a 20 minutes drive from their home. Afternoon - someone uses Summer's card at Ross in Temecula for 4 baby onesies. (source: How the McStay case unfolded)

Feb. 4 - Time could be 2:36pm - This is the last known face-to-face interaction Summer and kids have with friends and family.

Summer:
3:52 pm - Home computer is used to search Craigslist for children's toys. (source: How the McStay case unfolded). There were toys found in the rear compartment of the SUV when found at the border.
https://www.websleuths.com/forums/threads/mcstay-family-comprehensive-timeline.285143/
​

It's all coming back to me why there were so many theories in the beginning lol We are pretty sure there was no way that Joey was home by 2;36pm, so Summer must have taken the truck with the kids. The car seats, well... let's be real here, from everything we have heard about Summer, we know that she was not the typical mom/housewife. In fact, the falling out between her and Mike was because he said something about the kids IIRC. My guess is that they didn't have a lot of 'rules' or structure, they were energetic little boys and she let them kinda do whatever they want lol Who lets their 2 kids under 5 have paint brushes when you are painting a new house? Summer did I can see Summer taking the kids without the car seats, right or wrong, people do it all the time. I've had friends over the years that would throw their kids in the backseat, no car seat, no seat belt.. drove me crazy LOL I would never do it, but others have and do.

What I find most interesting about the timeline is the 3:52 search and knowing that those toys were found in the back of the Trooper. This muddies some "theories". If they were in the back of the Trooper, it has to mean that Joey did eventually get home so she could go pick those up? Or maybe that is what the VM/text was about between Joey/Summer? Asking Joey to stop and get them before he got home? I wonder if they were able to find the toy seller and ask who picked them up and when?

I recall back in the day the theory was that they all went to pick up the toys and maybe went out for dinner, but I don't think there is any evidence that CC's were used after that time at a restaurant or anywhere.

​

I get what you're saying and thought about that too (Summer just took them without the carseats) but I then thought, would she take that risk with already having a strike against her and with the current possible CPS issues looming over them? I mean it's definitely possible but then I wonder if it could have caused some trouble for her if she had been caught.

Does anyone recall whether any of the items that Summer supposedly bought at Ross on the 4th were found, and if so, where were they found?

 

[oceanblueeyes]

Some of you have a bit more experience at trial watching (@oceanblueeyes) and I'm curious about the State's narrative of the family being killed in the home. Does the State have to prove to the jury that this is the case? Their contention is that Chase had opportunity (pings and phone going dark). The defense is hammering home that there was no blood in the home. Wouldn't it be enough without this theory to convince them that Chase was the killer? We all have more access to info than the jury does at this point and have so for years, yet no one has really produced a viable conclusion as to how he was to able pull it off as the State purports. Could he really get off if the State can't prove opportunity?

No they do not have to prove where it happened.

The state has three element requirements they must prove.

1. They must prove who the victims are. (DNA or other methods)

2. They must prove that all four victims died from homicide. (ME examination)

3. They must prove BARD CM...the accused is the murderer of all 4 victims.

That's it.

They never are burdened with proving where it happened...what happened..when it happened or even why it happened.

That is why motive never has to be proven for really only the suspect knows the true motive.

However the state is allowed to put forth their theory to the jury based on witness testimony/submitted evidence.

They also can put forth what they believe the motive was for the murders even though it is not a legal requirement for any prosecutor to do so.

Hope this helps some. During jury instructions the judge will layout the legal requirements and what doesnt have to be proven.

The jury is allowed to have their own theories as to where..what..how and why it happened. They do not have to all agree.

They must only agree unanimously that CM is either guilty or not guilty of course. If not it will be a hung jury.

Remember missing person...murder cases really have none of this known yet they are successfully won very routinely now proving CE carries a lot of legal weight with juries.

Jmo

 

[mrjitty]

Some of you have a bit more experience at trial watching (@oceanblueeyes) and I'm curious about the State's narrative of the family being killed in the home. Does the State have to prove to the jury that this is the case? Their contention is that Chase had opportunity (pings and phone going dark). The defense is hammering home that there was no blood in the home. Wouldn't it be enough without this theory to convince them that Chase was the killer? We all have more access to info than the jury does at this point and have so for years, yet no one has really produced a viable conclusion as to how he was to able pull it off as the State purports. Could he really get off if the State can't prove opportunity?

For me this is technically the most fascinating aspect of the case.

In theory, the only matter at issue is the identity of the killer.

So in theory, it should be enough to prove CM was at the house, had the motive, was close to the gravesites, drove the trooper, lied about his alibi, had foreknowledge of the disappearance etc etc. It doesn't strictly matter how exactly he did everything. Indeed only the murder can know that! So to me the blood at the house is a red herring. There is just no way to know and it doesn't matter.

However, I suspect in practice it will be hard to get the jury to convict if they don't at least loosely believe the Prosecution theory.

 

[missy1974]

I get what you're saying and thought about that too (Summer just took them without the carseats) but I then thought, would she take that risk with already having a strike against her and with the current possible CPS issues looming over them? I mean it's definitely possible but then I wonder if it could have caused some trouble for her if she had been caught.

Does anyone recall whether any of the items that Summer supposedly bought at Ross on the 4th were found, and if so, where were they found?

I don't know that the CPS thing was not just a rumour?

I just did a quick google search, and from what I am reading is that Joey and/or Summer actually made a complaint to CPS against Joey's oldest son's step-father.

Judge to unseal redacted search warrants in McStay family murders

Attorneys said those two search warrants detail a Child Protective Services complaint filed by Summer McStay a few months before the family disappeared.​

I was wondering the same about the items bought from Ross that day.

 

[cobalt sky]

I don't know that the CPS thing was not just a rumour?

I just did a quick google search, and from what I am reading is that Joey and/or Summer actually made a complaint to CPS against Joey's oldest son's step-father.

Judge to unseal redacted search warrants in McStay family murders

Attorneys said those two search warrants detail a Child Protective Services complaint filed by Summer McStay a few months before the family disappeared.​

I was wondering the same about the items bought from Ross that day.

IIRC the ex-wife and stepfather had threatened to make a complaint against the McStays as well and they were very worried about that. So that's why I question whether Summer would have driven the boys anywhere without car seats unless it was an emergency or something.