Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #14

[tayaway]

It seems TPS received the 'foreign' information in May 2020... which may have been requested in the first place, many months prior to that. It's possible that whatever information was gleaned from this 'foreign information', may have been the instigator leading to the further warrant and production orders in Ontario, which came later than September 1st this year.

I agree however, on KD's meaning. Personally I doubt if KD would've twice in one interview used the word 'overseas', if he had in fact been referring to the US. jmo.

It'd be more likely he'd say 'stateside' or 'down south' or any other common references we use to indicate the US.

I was thinking about my dismay that they chose to use what I considered to have been a 'junior' forensic pathologist for the autopsies of both victims in this case, considering this case seems to be not your everyday murder/case, seems to possibly have some staging and therefore possible deception involved (imho). I don't want to argue with anyone about the 'junior' status. I know that six and a half years seems a long time to be in a position, however imho, a forensic pathologist role is a lifelong learning occupation.. the longer one is doing it, the more they will see, the more experience they will gain, etc. I don't think anyone could dispute that?

Given this information, what IF...... all along, Pickup, the pathologist who actually performed both autopsies, had believed it to be a double homicide (he had removed both victims' wrist skin samples to keep as evidence of some kind), but his hands were tied by his superiors, in remaining undetermined?

All of this is just to say... we, the public, don't have a clue what is going on behind various doors, until things become unveiled, like at a trial, or an inquiry. imo.

In a case that parallels a scathing judge’s decision about Ontario’s chief forensic pathologist two years ago, Dr. Michael Pollanen has been accused of interfering in the work of the province’s other forensic pathologists, pressing them to change their findings in suspicious deaths and undermining those who disagree with him.
...
Dr. Jane Turner, a forensic pathologist who worked for almost two years at the Hamilton Regional Forensic Pathology Unit and is now working as a consultant in St. Louis, Mo., made the allegations in an Aug. 12 letter to Ontario Solicitor General Sylvia Jones.

“My complaint against Dr. Pollanen is not that I am always right and Dr. Pollanen is always wrong, but rather that his interference, bullying and insistence on compliance threaten the integrity of the system of death investigation,” Turner told Jones.

“No one is allowed to challenge his views.”

Christie Blatchford: 'Bullying' Ontario chief forensic pathologist accused of interfering with cases | National Post
----

Agree on getting a junior fp, they're more pliable as well. Same with the work dynamics regarding Dr. P; work relationships and personalities certainly can affect cases. Going up the ladder to the TPS, even simple things like an oversight or maybe one of the officers had a conflict of interest which played into it.

If you've ever listened to the Wrongful Conviction podcast, you'll know that humans can be the wildcard in cases, even if they're professional and dot all their i's and cross their t's.

 

[watcher9]

Another link. No new info.

Person of interest identified three years after billionaire couple found hanging in Toronto mansion

 

[ldlager]

“Overseas” might even be India - Apotex has a plant there that had some issues. In addition to a person close to Barry and Honey, the myriad of lawsuits with other drug companies all over the world are also potential sources of a murder for hire plot.

plus an ex apotex employee was accused of stealing formulations and setting up production facilities in India.

 

[ldlager]

Throughout all this time, despite all the speculation and everything that has been written, my list of the 3 people I think are most likely to have committed or been involved in these murders hasn’t changed.
It shows how little new info has been available to discount these, or to add possible new names. I hope police are able to lay charges soon.

 

[taylorss]

So finally there’s a bit of movement on this case ?! Or is it more just media digging for a story? I mean..... does anyone have a sense that something has actually happened here (EG LE are actually closing on on an arrest), .....or is the whole story just that some journalist managed to catch LE in the act of not denying the existence of a “person of interest” ??

 

[nuff]

The person of interest is Barry Sherman. The double homicide theory does not hold water. Professional hired killers would simply not stage the macabre scenario. Impossible.

Unless hired killers (from overseas?) were directed to stage the scene exactly as found, quite possibly to make it clear this was not M-S. Imagine that whoever hired them had enough hatred to want it clear it was double murder (but of course wanted to avoid ever being linked to the crime.)

 

[branmuffin]

Had wondered if the very last paragraph in the article was telling, or simply complimentary? rbbm.

The charitable foundation promised at Barry and Honey Sherman’s funeral by their son was never created, as rift among siblings grows
''The event, part fundraiser for the soldiers and part team building, includes a gruelling 90-kilometre march through the desert to the top of Mount Masada and a challenge where the men are put on a “magic carpet” and told to turn it over without stepping on the sand. Sources present on the trip said there was a great deal of confusion — “everyone had their own idea” — until Jonathon spoke up and coolly instructed everyone on what to do. The carpet was quickly turned over, and nobody touched the sand.

“Barry was a genius and Jonathon clearly has that clever intelligence,” one source present said.''

I wonder if it was one carpet or two. There is a team building exercise that's been around for a while that has this very problem. The solution is for one group to transfer over to the other carpet then flip over the first one. After the first carpet is flipped then the groups perform the same function by transferring both groups to the flipped carpet then flipping the other over.

It's the same as all those logic problems.

 

[deugirtni]

Just wanted to post these references to Japan, which appear in KD's book.. actually the same exact thing appears twice, so I'll only paste it once. (my ebook says it appears on pages: 12-14, and 34-35.)

Jonathon had been in Japan with his husband, Fred, the previous week. When he’d called Alex about their parents, he told her that he’d just arrived that Friday morning at his cottage, about two-and-a-half hours northeast of Toronto. He said he would head back to Toronto.


By the early evening, the three siblings had converged at Alex and Brad’s home, joining other family members and friends.

 

[MistyWaters]

From google -
Nov 17, 2020 — The foreign country is not identified in the Yim affidavit. It is one of 35 countries that have a special treaty with Canada — Israel, the United States, Italy, Austria ... Yim has also revealed that homicide detectives received information ... Kevin Donovan can be reached at [email protected]

Sceptical me is curious how KD went from reporting detectives received information from an unidentified foreign country - to detectives actually travelling “overseas” a day or two later. That’s not the same story....Another unnamed source?

 

[clearskies1]

LE 101: Who benefits if BS and HS die?

The killer(s) apparently had detailed knowledge of the home and security system and knew that they didn't have to worry about anyone arriving that night. They either had first hand knowledge or were given that information by the person(s) who hired them.

Apparent Staging -- staged to make it seem that at least one of the Shermans committed suicide -- i.e., a S-S or S-M. Whoever was responsible for the killings apparently thought (s)he would be a suspect and needed to take extreme measures to try to make it appear as if no outside party was involved in their deaths and that no one other than Barry and Honey were in the home when they died.

Maybe the apparent staging went awry and they were meant to be found hanging from something higher -- like shower curtain rods etc?

JMO.

 

[CAMBRIAN]

After three years, we have to look outside the box. Hired killers, whether from here or overseas, would simply not stage the bodies in the way that they were found....unless, and I repeat unless, they were given specific directions to do so. If that logic is accepted, then we have to rule out a pure "contract killing" done by professionals in that business. That leaves just two possibilities: a) THE MURDERERS WERE HIRED BY SOMEONE CLOSE TO BARRY OR HONEY AND/OR SOMEONE WHO HAD A VERY PERSONAL SCORE TO SETTLE, OR : b) BARRY LOST HIS TEMPER AND SERIOUSLY HURT HONEY, HAVING DONE SO, HE COMPLETED THE KILLING AND STAGED THE ENTIRE MURDER/SUICIDE IN SUCH A WAY AS TO FEND OF ANY SUSPICIONS THAT HE HAD BLOOD ON HIS HANDS.

Until the police identify the culprit(s), I tend to lean to scenario "b"

 

[deugirtni]

LE 101: Who benefits if BS and HS die?

The killer(s) apparently had detailed knowledge of the home and security system and knew that they didn't have to worry about anyone arriving that night. They either had first hand knowledge or were given that information by the person(s) who hired them.

Apparent Staging -- staged to make it seem that at least one of the Shermans committed suicide -- i.e., a S-S or S-M. Whoever was responsible for the killings apparently thought (s)he would be a suspect and needed to take extreme measures to try to make it appear as if no outside party was involved in their deaths and that no one other than Barry and Honey were in the home when they died.

Maybe the apparent staging went awry and they were meant to be found hanging from something higher -- like shower curtain rods etc?

JMO.

Even better for the cover if the murderer could stage it to 'look' like a murder-suicide AND then go on to publicly proclaim there was no way that B would have done such a thing! Pretty much everyone who actually knew the couple, or even just Barry, stated the same thing, 'no way'.

 

[MistyWaters]

LE 101: Who benefits if BS and HS die?

The killer(s) apparently had detailed knowledge of the home and security system and knew that they didn't have to worry about anyone arriving that night. They either had first hand knowledge or were given that information by the person(s) who hired them.

Apparent Staging -- staged to make it seem that at least one of the Shermans committed suicide -- i.e., a S-S or S-M. Whoever was responsible for the killings apparently thought (s)he would be a suspect and needed to take extreme measures to try to make it appear as if no outside party was involved in their deaths and that no one other than Barry and Honey were in the home when they died.

Maybe the apparent staging went awry and they were meant to be found hanging from something higher -- like shower curtain rods etc?

JMO.

I agree, the only reason for staging and/or posing both bodies in the manner in which they were found is to intentionally mislead investigators, attempting to avoid a homicide investigation focusing on likely suspects.

It’s been speculated here earlier that possibly the lights on in the basement pool room late into the night might’ve not attracted attention in the same way a main floor or upstairs room lights would. We don’t know what time the murders occurred or the length of time involved in the staging, possible cleanup, etc but it could’ve involved a period of several hours.

One of the home’s features was high spiral staircases but then the bodies might’ve been discovered much sooner, perhaps not in the demented killer’s diabolical plan.

JMO

 

[deugirtni]

How is this staging even close to looking like a M/S is beyond me.

 

[MistyWaters]

How is this staging even close to looking like a M/S is beyond me.

Robin Williams?

Robin Williams found hanged with a belt, cops say
“Investigators here said today that Oscar-winning actor Robin Williams' death was a suicide by hanging: He was found dead in his bedroom, clothed, slightly suspended in a seated position with a leather belt around his neck, with one end wedged between a closet door and door frame.”

 

[clearskies1]

Robin Williams?

Robin Williams found hanged with a belt, cops say
“Investigators here said today that Oscar-winning actor Robin Williams' death was a suicide by hanging: He was found dead in his bedroom, clothed, slightly suspended in a seated position with a leather belt around his neck, with one end wedged between a closet door and door frame.”

Yes, and similar to that:
Mick Jagger's girlfriend L'Wren Scott dead in apparent suicide

"She was discovered kneeling with a scarf around her neck that had been tied to a door handle in what police believe was an apparent suicide, although the Medical Examiner will determine the exact cause of death."

 

[casesensitive]

I have got what I feel to be, an interesting possible theory on what is generally believed to have been confusion during the first six weeks in regard to manner of death. Bear with me, I'll try to make it as brief as I can, although I seem to experience difficulty in being brief. ;[

If it is true, it's something they cannot speak of at this time, for obvious/political/politically-correct/relationship/etc, reasons.

I was thinking about my dismay that they chose to use what I considered to have been a 'junior' forensic pathologist for the autopsies of both victims in this case, considering this case seems to be not your everyday murder/case, seems to possibly have some staging and therefore possible deception involved (imho). I don't want to argue with anyone about the 'junior' status. I know that six and a half years seems a long time to be in a position, however imho, a forensic pathologist role is a lifelong learning occupation.. the longer one is doing it, the more they will see, the more experience they will gain, etc. I don't think anyone could dispute that?

When the family hired Chiasson, I was surprised that some felt that his assessment would/could/might be inferior somehow, to Michael Pickup's assessment, considering Chiasson has been considered an expert in forensic pathology in over 200 court cases and had performed thousands of autopsies before December 2017 (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/james-turpin-murder-trial-defence-1.3614416), he once held the role of Pickup's boss (Chief Forensic Pathologist for the province of Ontario) for seven years (1994-2001) (interesting reading in 'the Goudge Report'). Even worse that some might even possibly entertain the thought that a pathologist of Chiasson's stature would risk his reputation just because he was hired privately by a family hoping for a certain outcome.

I was afraid of mixing up Michael Pickup's name with his boss, Michael Pollanen, so I was doing some looking around. Barry and Honey were murdered in December 2017. I came across some articles which suggest that Pollanen has somewhat of a documented history of what is sometimes referred to as 'tunnel vision'.. looking at a scenario, making a decision, and then seeking backup to support that decision, rather than the opposite, which is supposed to occur. Also, that he has been accused of messing with other pathologists' findings, bullying them, etc.

Given this information, what IF...... all along, Pickup, the pathologist who actually performed both autopsies, had believed it to be a double homicide (he had removed both victims' wrist skin samples to keep as evidence of some kind), but his hands were tied by his superiors, in remaining undetermined?

For example.. it has been reported that police spent an enormous amount of money investigating this case. I suspect that the financial resources available to police could not continue indefinitely, and especially if there was nothing from the ME's office to say that the deaths were homicides. I also suspect that TPS wasn't super interested in dealing with the family's assembled team of detectives, legal, and pathologist, because it *seems* like it may have been, or at least had the potential to create, a conflict in many different ways (imo).

As a further 'what IF..', for all we know, a situation of this sort could have been happening also within the TPS, whereby certain higher-up LE believed it to be one thing, while perhaps others, possibly those doing the actual investigating, believed it to be another thing? Then along comes KD with his headline news one day, that the couple was murdered, as per the second pathologist... an announcement which reportedly seems to have supposedly led to police finally meeting with him, and then making their 'targeted double homicide' announcement/press conference. It may have been what had been suspected by most all along, but hands were tied, until kind of publicly forced into action. IIRC, I recall there being reports that Susan Gomes had said that she hadn't ever thought it was M/S, or something to that effect?

All of this is just to say... we, the public, don't have a clue what is going on behind various doors, until things become unveiled, like at a trial, or an inquiry. imo.
----
"Pollanen fell into several major pitfalls laid out by the landmark Goudge inquiry sparked by Smith's work, Molloy found.

Among them was confirmation bias - reaching a conclusion and working backward to find evidence to support it, and professional credibility bias - being unwilling to change an opinion once stated"

DR. MICHAEL POLLANEN-SLAMMED-ONTARIO CHIEF PATHOLOGIST
----
In a case that parallels a scathing judge’s decision about Ontario’s chief forensic pathologist two years ago, Dr. Michael Pollanen has been accused of interfering in the work of the province’s other forensic pathologists, pressing them to change their findings in suspicious deaths and undermining those who disagree with him.
...
Dr. Jane Turner, a forensic pathologist who worked for almost two years at the Hamilton Regional Forensic Pathology Unit and is now working as a consultant in St. Louis, Mo., made the allegations in an Aug. 12 letter to Ontario Solicitor General Sylvia Jones.

“My complaint against Dr. Pollanen is not that I am always right and Dr. Pollanen is always wrong, but rather that his interference, bullying and insistence on compliance threaten the integrity of the system of death investigation,” Turner told Jones.

“No one is allowed to challenge his views.”

Christie Blatchford: 'Bullying' Ontario chief forensic pathologist accused of interfering with cases | National Post
----

Excellent post deugirtni! With respect to Susan Gomes remarks, the only thing I recall from her presser was that they considered S/S, M/S and M/M throughout the investigation, and after six weeks arrived at "targeted" M/M.

 

[ldlager]

I agree, the only reason for staging and/or posing both bodies in the manner in which they were found is to intentionally mislead investigators, attempting to avoid a homicide investigation focusing on likely suspects.

It’s been speculated here earlier that possibly the lights on in the basement pool room late into the night might’ve not attracted attention in the same way a main floor or upstairs room lights would. We don’t know what time the murders occurred or the length of time involved in the staging, possible cleanup, etc but it could’ve involved a period of several hours.

One of the home’s features was high spiral staircases but then the bodies might’ve been discovered much sooner, perhaps not in the demented killer’s diabolical plan.

JMO

As a reminder, the pool room lights were reported to be off when the bodies were discovered. But the lights IN the pool itself were on. If the killers had the lights on in the poolroom when the bodies were positioned from the railing, , they either turned them off, or the lights may have been on timers.

 

[JDG]

As a reminder, the pool room lights were reported to be off when the bodies were discovered. But the lights IN the pool itself were on. If the killers had the lights on in the poolroom when the bodies were positioned from the railing, , they either turned them off, or the lights may have been on timers.

Do we have it in MSM that the pool lights were on??

The photos of the pool seemed to show it with a pool cover on. IIRC

As the Shermans were about to leave for Florida, why would the pool lights be on? Curious

 

[MistyWaters]

Do we have it in MSM that the pool lights were on??

The photos of the pool seemed to show it with a pool cover on. IIRC

As the Shermans were about to leave for Florida, why would the pool lights be on? Curious

I don’t recall anything about pool lights on either, nor whether there was water in the pool at the time.