Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #14

[clearskies1]

I don’t recall anything about pool lights on either, nor whether there was water in the pool at the time.

Barry and Honey Sherman’s bodies were found posed like the sculptures in their basement
"Entering the vestibule outside the pool, with the clients and the other realtor in tow, the realtor made the grisly discovery. Of note, most of the basement lights were off when the realtors and clients had made their way downstairs. Also, the main lights were off in the pool room, although there was a glow in the room because the underwater lights of the pool were on."

 

[Satchie]

LE 101: Who benefits if BS and HS die?

The killer(s) apparently had detailed knowledge of the home and security system and knew that they didn't have to worry about anyone arriving that night. They either had first hand knowledge or were given that information by the person(s) who hired them.

Apparent Staging -- staged to make it seem that at least one of the Shermans committed suicide -- i.e., a S-S or S-M. Whoever was responsible for the killings apparently thought (s)he would be a suspect and needed to take extreme measures to try to make it appear as if no outside party was involved in their deaths and that no one other than Barry and Honey were in the home when they died.

Maybe the apparent staging went awry and they were meant to be found hanging from something higher -- like shower curtain rods etc?

JMO.

"Crime scene staging is the physical manifestation of a person’s imagination for how things should appear when trying to turn a murder scene into a legitimate death scene,” says criminologist.
Staging Murder

From all the choices of possible scenarios to stage (random robbery/home invasion, apparent accidents, like drowned in the pool, murder-suicide by gunfire), IMO the killer's imagination turned to create this particular scene with it's attendent grotesque qualities.

A murderer is not a machine, they can't help but leave clues about themselves behind, whether forensic, or some trail of patterns that can be discerned with close attention, or by reconstructing the crime to detect the probable thoughts/emotions and actions that created the crime scene.

IMO, even when they try to be clever in leaving false clues, if detectives are careful and attentive and open minded, they can discern what is true evidence and what is faked.

I agree that contract killers wouldn't waste their time on elaborate staging, it just creates risk of something going wrong and wastes time and energy. For them it's: use the most efficient and concealable weapon, get in, get out, get far away.

 

[Satchie]

Do we have it in MSM that the pool lights were on??

The photos of the pool seemed to show it with a pool cover on. IIRC

As the Shermans were about to leave for Florida, why would the pool lights be on? Curious

I assume it was because the house was for sale and the real estate agents would want to highlight the pool as a desireable, appealing feature. A covered-up pool would raise a question in the buyers mind, whether there was something wrong with it.

They call this, of course, home staging...was the killer aware of this and hoping to create exactly the scenario that occurred: potential buyers with the agents encountering the ultimate Nightmare on Old Colony Road staging?

 

[dotr]

Wondering if the belts were used simply because they were available, or to make a statement about HS"s thrifty shopping?
Re post.
Who killed Barry and Honey Sherman? A new book offers fascinating insights. - Macleans.ca
By Anne Kingston October 30, 2019

''Q: You also write that you don’t think the killer or killers were professionals. One reason is the use of belts—one was taken from an upstairs bedroom. Organized criminals don’t look for their murder weapons at the scene.
A: I’ve not seen crime scene photos. But I was told belts were used. Barry was wearing a belt that morning, one Honey bought him at Canadian Tire. The other belt was from their bedroom, or my supposition is that was where the other belt was. I don’t think a foreign object was brought into the house to do the killing. Why the pool? Because it’s out of the way, because the tile floor can be cleaned up easier.''

 

[dotr]

Lawyers for Ontario, Apotex struck deal on what detectives could access in Sherman murder investigation. It took one month
Article was updated 30 mins ago
"You are a homicide detective working one of the most sensational cases in recent history. Billionaires Barry and Honey Sherman, found dead in their basement swimming pool room, staged in a macabre pose. Barry’s BlackBerry is discovered nearby, and his office computer and cluttered desk are surely awash with clues.

But hold on. Due to a protocol hammered out by government lawyers and counsel for the late Barry Sherman’s firm Apotex, you cannot look at any of this information until lawyers for the generic drug giant decide what police can and cannot see due to legal privilege concerns.

Police were told that if they spotted something — perhaps a sticky note on Sherman’s desk, a cancelled appointment in his calendar, the time of his last phone call — they were forbidden to act on the information until the lawyers give the green light.''

 

[Satchie]

Lawyers for Ontario, Apotex struck deal on what detectives could access in Sherman murder investigation. It took one month
Article was updated 30 mins ago
"You are a homicide detective working one of the most sensational cases in recent history. Billionaires Barry and Honey Sherman, found dead in their basement swimming pool room, staged in a macabre pose. Barry’s BlackBerry is discovered nearby, and his office computer and cluttered desk are surely awash with clues.

But hold on. Due to a protocol hammered out by government lawyers and counsel for the late Barry Sherman’s firm Apotex, you cannot look at any of this information until lawyers for the generic drug giant decide what police can and cannot see due to legal privilege concerns.

Police were told that if they spotted something — perhaps a sticky note on Sherman’s desk, a cancelled appointment in his calendar, the time of his last phone call — they were forbidden to act on the information until the lawyers give the green light.''

Neither snow no rain nor heat nor murder of the founder and his wife shall stay these corporations from their duty to protect their self-interest and maximize their profits.

KD has what is known as 'control of the narrative'. For now, anyhow. I find it very interesting to watch how he uses that power, what kind of buttons he likes to push in his audience.

The story he will never write: "You are a homicide detective working one of the most sensational cases in recent history. But hold on, a journalist goes around your back interviewing anyone and everyone and publishing their one-sided versions without naming them, casting suspicion on people who won't cooperate with him, and trash talking your efforts...."

 

[ldlager]

Barry and Honey Sherman’s bodies were found posed like the sculptures in their basement
"Entering the vestibule outside the pool, with the clients and the other realtor in tow, the realtor made the grisly discovery. Of note, most of the basement lights were off when the realtors and clients had made their way downstairs. Also, the main lights were off in the pool room, although there was a glow in the room because the underwater lights of the pool were on."

Thanks Clearskies

 

[ldlager]

Wondering if the belts were used simply because they were available, or to make a statement about HS"s thrifty shopping?
Re post.
Who killed Barry and Honey Sherman? A new book offers fascinating insights. - Macleans.ca
By Anne Kingston October 30, 2019

''Q: You also write that you don’t think the killer or killers were professionals. One reason is the use of belts—one was taken from an upstairs bedroom. Organized criminals don’t look for their murder weapons at the scene.
A: I’ve not seen crime scene photos. But I was told belts were used. Barry was wearing a belt that morning, one Honey bought him at Canadian Tire. The other belt was from their bedroom, or my supposition is that was where the other belt was. I don’t think a foreign object was brought into the house to do the killing. Why the pool? Because it’s out of the way, because the tile floor can be cleaned up easier.''

The staging has to indicate it was meant to look like a M/S. Otherwise, just leave the bodies on the floor, or leaned up against a wall.

 

[ldlager]

Neither snow no rain nor heat nor murder of the founder and his wife shall stay these corporations from their duty to protect their self-interest and maximize their profits.

KD has what is known as 'control of the narrative'. For now, anyhow. I find it very interesting to watch how he uses that power, what kind of buttons he likes to push in his audience.

The story he will never write: "You are a homicide detective working one of the most sensational cases in recent history. But hold on, a journalist goes around your back interviewing anyone and everyone and publishing their one-sided versions without naming them, casting suspicion on people who won't cooperate with him, and trash talking your efforts...."

Fair enough. But without him, who would expose to the public potential flaws in the investigation; who would prevent the case from just slipping into TPS cold case oblivion where so many other cases seem to end up.
KD's involvement and reporting is a two edged sword, and while we may not like the fact that he quotes unnamed sources, IMO he is playing a valuable role. His views and writings and assertions can be discounted, believed, or dismissed by listeners and readers as one chooses. But at least, because of his role we have the choice to do exactly that.

 

[deugirtni]

The person of interest is Barry Sherman. The double homicide theory does not hold water. Professional hired killers would simply not stage the macabre scenario. Impossible. We must keep in mind that not a soul appeared to provide information to obtain the fat reward. <modsnip>The second autopsy cannot be a certification of the double murder theory; it simply paints a different possibility. In any event, that is my two cents worth.

How do we know that not a soul appeared to provide info to obtain the fat reward?

 

[nuff]

deleted

 

[AddyFinch]

Totally agree dotr. Rumours never elaborated on....son furious parents were gifting charity with most of monies upon death, bad relationship with parents, bodies staged similar to statues in house, which family hated, international involvement with building of One Bay, sons anger of Barry’s refusal to finance sons latest project, Honeys “fitness trainer”. The staging of bodies was not a professional hit. It was personal.

 

[AddyFinch]

Just saw this....hilarious, and a very true reflection. I can hear that conversation in this house

That's pretty deep, dotr! Especially since you're asking in the present tense (maybe a slip, but I notice you didn't ask 'what would they have wanted'). I have a vision of an old married couple arguing about this in the afterlife...one saying 'I can't believe they'd do that to us, after everything we did for them' and the other saying 'oh forget it, they did us a favor'.

 

[deugirtni]

Robin Williams?

Robin Williams found hanged with a belt, cops say
“Investigators here said today that Oscar-winning actor Robin Williams' death was a suicide by hanging: He was found dead in his bedroom, clothed, slightly suspended in a seated position with a leather belt around his neck, with one end wedged between a closet door and door frame.”

The thing about that... I've understood that this method of 'low hanging' from say, items such as a door knob, as a method of suicide.. necessitates the person leaning away from the doorknob. Eg. cloth is tied to a doorknob with a noose, the noose placed around the neck, and then the person leans *forward* to cut off breathing, etc. I've read it's very quick, etc. The problem for me in understanding how this particular case could be made to look like that (suicide), is that the bodies were reported to have been in a semi-seated position, held up by men's belts to prevent them from falling back into the pool, leaning *backwards* slightly, both with their arms hanging toward the backs (reportedly held in that position by the sleeves of their jackets). Also, if their butts weren't seated on the floor, but were raised up slightly, that would seem like a terribly awkward position to be in when slipping a noose around one's neck, and then one would have to lean forward.

It seems to me there is much that we are not learning from MSM, perhaps holdback info, who knows, in regard to why TPS would've ever thought it was M/S, even as a possibility, in the first place. jmo.

People who saw the bodies in the pool room that Friday have confirmed this to the Star. One of those people said the bodies were not seated in a 90-degree position but tipped back slightly, with the belts around their necks holding them from falling backward into the pool.
Barry and Honey Sherman’s bodies were found posed like the sculptures in their basement

 

[deugirtni]

Neither snow no rain nor heat nor murder of the founder and his wife shall stay these corporations from their duty to protect their self-interest and maximize their profits.

KD has what is known as 'control of the narrative'. For now, anyhow. I find it very interesting to watch how he uses that power, what kind of buttons he likes to push in his audience.

The story he will never write: "You are a homicide detective working one of the most sensational cases in recent history. But hold on, a journalist goes around your back interviewing anyone and everyone and publishing their one-sided versions without naming them, casting suspicion on people who won't cooperate with him, and trash talking your efforts...."

KD has been around a long time. I'm sure he has developed friends in the police force over time, and likely lost some as well. I'm also sure that his contacts in TPS are some of his unnamed sources. He wouldn't have ANY sources if he was a journalist willing to expose the names of sources who spoke in confidence to him. As much as I'm sure he's a thorn in the side of both TPS and the family, I believe he is seeking the truth, keeping everyone on their toes (given the various TPS blunders in the recent past), and that TPS is utilizing him as much as possible to meet their own ends. And I'm sure he knows this, and works with them. I suspect he knows much much more than he has said/written publicly. I'm happy he's reporting on this case, and pushing a few buttons along the way. We'd sure know a lot of absolutely nothing, if not for him. jmo.

 

[deugirtni]

Excellent post deugirtni! With respect to Susan Gomes remarks, the only thing I recall from her presser was that they considered S/S, M/S and M/M throughout the investigation, and after six weeks arrived at "targeted" M/M.

Yes. Just from memory, I thought I remembered more than one newscast/article saying that Gomes said she'd never thought it was M/S, or something to that effect.

 

[deugirtni]

I'm glad you mentioned the unlocked basement door.. I was going to mention earlier, but then I couldn't find anything to back it up and wondered if it was my imagination that the basement door had been found unlocked.

Just wanted to post this as a reference for the basement door being found unlocked:

While police officers have said there were no signs of forced entry into the home, the Star’s investigation revealed that a window was left open in a basement room that was being painted in order to air out the smell. A door leading outside from the basement was also left unlocked when police arrived at the scene, according to the paper.
Murdered billionaire couple posed like 'creepy' life-sized figurines found in home: report

 

[tayaway]

Those 'creepy' junk sculptures of a man and woman are ugly as sin. I looked up photos of them on the artist, Leo Sewell's site. I could see placing them in a museum, but in your home, in a room you frequent? Is there something about the late couple that disturbed their adult children?

 

[MistyWaters]

The thing about that... I've understood that this method of 'low hanging' from say, items such as a door knob, as a method of suicide.. necessitates the person leaning away from the doorknob. Eg. cloth is tied to a doorknob with a noose, the noose placed around the neck, and then the person leans *forward* to cut off breathing, etc. I've read it's very quick, etc. The problem for me in understanding how this particular case could be made to look like that (suicide), is that the bodies were reported to have been in a semi-seated position, held up by men's belts to prevent them from falling back into the pool, leaning *backwards* slightly, both with their arms hanging toward the backs (reportedly held in that position by the sleeves of their jackets). Also, if their butts weren't seated on the floor, but were raised up slightly, that would seem like a terribly awkward position to be in when slipping a noose around one's neck, and then one would have to lean forward.

It seems to me there is much that we are not learning from MSM, perhaps holdback info, who knows, in regard to why TPS would've ever thought it was M/S, even as a possibility, in the first place. jmo.

People who saw the bodies in the pool room that Friday have confirmed this to the Star. One of those people said the bodies were not seated in a 90-degree position but tipped back slightly, with the belts around their necks holding them from falling backward into the pool.
Barry and Honey Sherman’s bodies were found posed like the sculptures in their basement

As TPS is an organization so it can’t really be said TPS thought it was M/S. Prior to the press conference, TPS only ever stated the deaths were classified as Suspicious. It was a unnamed “police source”, according to Warmington, who leaked to him the deaths were M/S. Regarding the more recent NS shootings, Warmington also reported a “police source” claimed the killer’s ex and her boyfriend were the first victims but that was not true either.

If an official can’t put his or her name behind what it is they have to say, then he or she is not speaking on behalf of the organization they represent. Maybe they’re only sharing their opinion which may or may not be based on facts.

So it goes that unnamed sources are not always reliable and everything we read in the news is not always correct. You’ve probably read surveys, last I recall only about 50% of Canadians believe what they read in the news.

 

[Tealgrove]

Totally agree dotr. Rumours never elaborated on....son furious parents were gifting charity with most of monies upon death, bad relationship with parents, bodies staged similar to statues in house, which family hated, international involvement with building of One Bay, sons anger of Barry’s refusal to finance sons latest project, Honeys “fitness trainer”. The staging of bodies was not a professional hit. It was personal.

RBBM

Or someone wanted everyone to think it was personal. Someone who knew the family dynamics and used that knowledge to move suspicion from the true killer to others.

The posing of the bodies is so macabre and intimate. It's an "in your face" to the Sherman's and in some way humiliating. It's very blatant and meant to say something.

I can't move away from money, inheritance, lost profits/income/profit sharing etc. as the impetus for the murders which is where most of us are in some form of agreement. Barry had enemies from his business dealings. It's just easy to go there.

What if it was Honey that was the "mark"? Where does that lead? Just throwing it out there.

MOO