Canada - Barry, 75, & Honey Sherman, 70, found dead, Toronto, 15 Dec 2017 #14

[dotr]

Ironic that on the one hand the family hires their own team to investigate the murders, offers a huge reward, maintains a tip line, a coroner, ect. ect..
Meanwhile, lawyers hired to protect the family and business interests, are seemingly doing their level best to prevent information that actually could lead to the killer, from getting out.
imo, speculation.
Lawyers, Apotex limited police access in Sherman murder investigation - 680 NEWS
''Court documents, reported by the Star, indicate due to a protocol by government lawyers and counsel for the late Barry Sherman’s firm Apotex, investigators weren’t initially able to look at things like Sherman’s blackberry or information on his office computer. Even things like post-it notes or his daily calendar were initially off-limits.

Instead, company lawyers had to give approval as legal privilege was provided because Apotex, a multi-billion dollar pharmacuetical company, argued many of Sherman’s documents were highly confidential and disclosure to third parties could result in financial harm to the company.''

 

[MistyWaters]

Ironic that on the one hand the family hires their own team to investigate the murders, offers a huge reward, maintains a tip line, a coroner, ect. ect..
Meanwhile, lawyers hired to protect the family and business interests, are seemingly doing their level best to prevent information that actually could lead to the killer, from getting out.
imo, speculation.
Lawyers, Apotex limited police access in Sherman murder investigation - 680 NEWS
''Court documents, reported by the Star, indicate due to a protocol by government lawyers and counsel for the late Barry Sherman’s firm Apotex, investigators weren’t initially able to look at things like Sherman’s blackberry or information on his office computer. Even things like post-it notes or his daily calendar were initially off-limits.

Instead, company lawyers had to give approval as legal privilege was provided because Apotex, a multi-billion dollar pharmacuetical company, argued many of Sherman’s documents were highly confidential and disclosure to third parties could result in financial harm to the company.''

Confidentiality agreements held between corporate entities and their clients are standard procedure. Had Apotex granted full and immediate access to TPS to search Barry’s office that potentially included confidential information in violation of those agreements, good chance anything TPS collected would get thrown out as court evidence, possibly the entire search would be ruled illegal, with additional ramifications of future lawsuits against Apotex if those agreements were ignored.

It’s interesting how the media can turn an example of Apotex and TPS adhering to the law into insinuations of a scandal.

JMO

 

[MistyWaters]

RBBM

Or someone wanted everyone to think it was personal. Someone who knew the family dynamics and used that knowledge to move suspicion from the true killer to others.

The posing of the bodies is so macabre and intimate. It's an "in your face" to the Sherman's and in some way humiliating. It's very blatant and meant to say something.

I can't move away from money, inheritance, lost profits/income/profit sharing etc. as the impetus for the murders which is where most of us are in some form of agreement. Barry had enemies from his business dealings. It's just easy to go there.

What if it was Honey that was the "mark"? Where does that lead? Just throwing it out there.

MOO

I think there would’ve been ample opportunity to murder either Sherman alone, if only one was the target.

But I agree, the posing of the bodies was disturbingly macabre and intimate. The killer also chose the murder site - a murder inside a home is personal as a home as a safe haven from the stresses of the outside world. The pool room was probably the location of good memories - socializing, play and laughter during the 20+ years they lived there. The murder of a couple, one of the two would’ve witnessed the other one being killed first. The act of strangulation is also personal as the killer is able to exercise total control over when death comes to the victim. How much torture involved, we don’t know but a murder scene inside a home enables the killer to take control of the act with no specific time contraints. All of it from beginning to end seems very personal, as if the killer was enacting out some kind of fantasy that’d already played over and over in their minds for months or even years.

I’d be hard pressed to believe anything but the killer had a strong personal connection and deep-seated diabolical hatred toward both Shermans over whatever the motive. This goes well beyond someone who was just mad or upset. All aspects of the crime verge toward someone with a deep-rooted psychological sickness IMO.

 

[deugirtni]

As TPS is an organization so it can’t really be said TPS thought it was M/S. Prior to the press conference, TPS only ever stated the deaths were classified as Suspicious. It was a unnamed “police source”, according to Warmington, who leaked to him the deaths were M/S. Regarding the more recent NS shootings, Warmington also reported a “police source” claimed the killer’s ex and her boyfriend were the first victims but that was not true either.

If an official can’t put his or her name behind what it is they have to say, then he or she is not speaking on behalf of the organization they represent. Maybe they’re only sharing their opinion which may or may not be based on facts.

So it goes that unnamed sources are not always reliable and everything we read in the news is not always correct. You’ve probably read surveys, last I recall only about 50% of Canadians believe what they read in the news.

It was reported that this information of the deaths being investigated as a murder/suicide came to various media outlets from an unnamed source. It wasn't just KD, and it wasn't just JW, that this was reported to. There was more than one instance of members of TPS publicly reporting to news cameras on the day the bodies were discovered that they were seeking no outstanding suspect(s). Since that first day, we have most recently seen reports that state police warrants and ITOs up until after the date of the news conference six weeks later, stated their belief that the situation could be a murder/suicide. So it seems that whomever was speaking out of line from TPS to news media as a confidential source, were correct.

And yes, of course a representative of any institution who is not authorized to speak to media, but is speaking confidentially to a news reporter, is not speaking on behalf of the organization. They are simply giving news tips/scuttlebutt/information to a member of the media, presumably one whom they trust not to disclose their name. The media cannot certify that any such information is true, just as anyone can't really certify that anyone else's words are true. I think most of the public knows this, and makes their own decisions on what to believe, or how much to believe. Media representatives can only make their best decision on whose word to trust as being valid. Their reputation is on the line however, if they often make bad decisions in that regard. Things also change as time moves on and investigations move forward. What might be 'true' one day, might be completely wrong the next as new evidence comes forward. If we had to wait for carved-in-stone facts, we'd be waiting an awfully long time. imo.

 

[branmuffin]

The staging has to indicate it was meant to look like a M/S. Otherwise, just leave the bodies on the floor, or leaned up against a wall.

How would BS be able to pull his jacket down over his shoulders while suspended from the belt on the railing?

 

[deugirtni]

Confidentiality agreements held between corporate entities and their clients are standard procedure. Had Apotex granted full and immediate access to TPS to search Barry’s office that potentially included confidential information in violation of those agreements, good chance anything TPS collected would get thrown out as court evidence, possibly the entire search would be ruled illegal, with additional ramifications of future lawsuits against Apotex if those agreements were ignored.

It’s interesting how the media can turn an example of Apotex and TPS adhering to the law into insinuations of a scandal.

JMO

I don't think the intent of reporting this is to insinuate a scandal of some type. For me, it is simply showing one more level of red tape the police were up against in properly investigating this case. Same as getting information requested from foreign entities, and the fact that people don't really have to answer police questioning, or agree to a lie detector test, it seems. imo.

More interesting to me, is that after finally gaining access to electronic devices used by Barry (and possibly some also used by Honey), it was only days later that the TPS press conference was held to announce double homicide.

The Shermans were found dead of “ligature neck compression” on Friday, Dec. 15, 2017. Police initially investigated their deaths as a murder-suicide, but some officers were not sure. Five days later (Dec. 20) they applied for a series of search warrants for devices found in the Sherman home in Toronto — Honey’s phone, Barry’s BlackBerry, a laptop, two iPads and a desktop computer, and separately for a computer at Barry’s office at Apotex.
....
The police documents unsealed last week do not reveal when homicide detectives began receiving the information. However, the deal was not hammered out until one month after the Shermans were murdered, meaning the review of the BlackBerry, desktop and other devices did not start until roughly Jan. 15, 2018.
Lawyers for Ontario, Apotex struck deal on what detectives could access in Sherman murder investigation. It took one month

 

[taylorss]

I stopped following this case way back cuz I couldn’t do the ‘was it m/s’ debate - guess I missed a lot! Do I read it right that KD is wondering if a Sherman son may have been involved? Thanks to anyone who can shed light on KD’s contribution!

 

[ldlager]

I think there would’ve been ample opportunity to murder either Sherman alone, if only one was the target.

But I agree, the posing of the bodies was disturbingly macabre and intimate. The killer also chose the murder site - a murder inside a home is personal as a home as a safe haven from the stresses of the outside world. The pool room was probably the location of good memories - socializing, play and laughter during the 20+ years they lived there. The murder of a couple, one of the two would’ve witnessed the other one being killed first. The act of strangulation is also personal as the killer is able to exercise total control over when death comes to the victim. How much torture involved, we don’t know but a murder scene inside a home enables the killer to take control of the act with no specific time contraints. All of it from beginning to end seems very personal, as if the killer was enacting out some kind of fantasy that’d already played over and over in their minds for months or even years.

I’d be hard pressed to believe anything but the killer had a strong personal connection and deep-seated diabolical hatred toward both Shermans over whatever the motive. This goes well beyond someone who was just mad or upset. All aspects of the crime verge toward someone with a deep-rooted psychological sickness IMO.

The other thing is, ,urdering in the house also provided the killer(s) with the ability to take their time to extract any information they might have wanted to obtain from the Shermans. Things like location of wills, business info, financial info, etc. I can't help wonder if forcing one victim (eg BS) to watch the torture or physical abuse of the other victim (say HS) was a method used to extract certain information from BS. Or vice versa.

 

[ldlager]

How would BS be able to pull his jacket down over his shoulders while suspended from the belt on the railing?

You attach the belt around your neck while kneeling. Then pull your jacket down from your shoulders. Then lean back and put your legs out front. I don't believe that happened, but it is possible to do.

 

[dotr]

How would BS be able to pull his jacket down over his shoulders while suspended from the belt on the railing?

Since the Shermans were believed to already be deceased when they were strapped to the pool railing, why would each of their jackets be pulled down in what seems to me, to be somewhat reminiscent of a ''hockey jerseying'' move?
Had not until now, thought about the not seeing part, maybe the jackets were first flipped over H&B's heads and then brought back to rest off the shoulders, keeping arm positions in place?
imo, speculation.

Urban Dictionary: Jerseying
''The act of reaching over somebody and pulling their shirt (or jersey) over their heads, but not off, so their arms are not usable for fighting or defending themselves. They also can't see.
Typically a move for hockey fights.''

 

[MistyWaters]

It was reported that this information of the deaths being investigated as a murder/suicide came to various media outlets from an unnamed source. It wasn't just KD, and it wasn't just JW, that this was reported to. There was more than one instance of members of TPS publicly reporting to news cameras on the day the bodies were discovered that they were seeking no outstanding suspect(s). Since that first day, we have most recently seen reports that state police warrants and ITOs up until after the date of the news conference six weeks later, stated their belief that the situation could be a murder/suicide. So it seems that whomever was speaking out of line from TPS to news media as a confidential source, were correct.

And yes, of course a representative of any institution who is not authorized to speak to media, but is speaking confidentially to a news reporter, is not speaking on behalf of the organization. They are simply giving news tips/scuttlebutt/information to a member of the media, presumably one whom they trust not to disclose their name. The media cannot certify that any such information is true, just as anyone can't really certify that anyone else's words are true. I think most of the public knows this, and makes their own decisions on what to believe, or how much to believe. Media representatives can only make their best decision on whose word to trust as being valid. Their reputation is on the line however, if they often make bad decisions in that regard. Things also change as time moves on and investigations move forward. What might be 'true' one day, might be completely wrong the next as new evidence comes forward. If we had to wait for carved-in-stone facts, we'd be waiting an awfully long time. imo.

The media routinely regurgitates reports from other MSM but I recall Warmington believed he was the first to report M/S. If he wasn’t, that doesn’t change the fact no “police source” was ever identified so it is impossible to know what TPS believed prior to the official ruling, other than they say M/S, S/S and M/S were all considered.

I don’t believe the public views incorrect information from unnamed sources to negatively reflect on anyone, since who offered the information is unknown to the general public. Reporters are legally protected to report what they’ve been told but any say-so information is impossible to verify.

Regarding “no suspects were being sought”, the context in which those words were spoken is critical in my view. This wasn’t spoken during an interview with the question asked “how is the investigation progressing”. That night alarmed, scared and concerned neighbours gathered because they noticed a large police presence at the Sherman home. The neighbours knew absolutely nothing about the murders that had already occurred a couple days prior. They probably thought TPS was alerted of violence occurring by an alarm company or a 911 call. Imaginations get working, is it safe to stay in their homes, might the violent intruder still be in the area? Are TPS planning to check garages and other outbuildings in case the intruder is hiding nearby, should they stay in a hotel?

It seems to me a very natural police-speak response by TPS “ no suspect is being sought” in order to calm the fears of those neighbours as indeed no suspect was being sought - if they’d said otherwise, I have a vision of TPS driving or running around the neighbourhood in this direction and that, hoping to locate the intruder. Of course that’d be totally ridiculous considering what we later learned.

JMO

 

[deugirtni]

You attach the belt around your neck while kneeling. Then pull your jacket down from your shoulders. Then lean back and put your legs out front. I don't believe that happened, but it is possible to do.

I would like to see a video of someone flipping their kneeling legs out in front of them once the belt is around the neck and arms behind the back.. especially at their ages. imo.

 

[MistyWaters]

The other thing is, ,urdering in the house also provided the killer(s) with the ability to take their time to extract any information they might have wanted to obtain from the Shermans. Things like location of wills, business info, financial info, etc. I can't help wonder if forcing one victim (eg BS) to watch the torture or physical abuse of the other victim (say HS) was a method used to extract certain information from BS. Or vice versa.

Yes, good examples and another, the privacy of a home also allows time for a killer to plant items or fictitious documents intended to misdirect the investigation and possibly incriminate innocent people.

 

[Skibunny]

I always thought this was a double homicide from the beginning, but I was familiar with Apotex.

I also know this street very well from the late 1980's when I used to house sit a home on it. At that time, it would not strike anyone as a "millionaire's row" type of place unlike the Bridle Path area, don't know if that has changed. Certainly if you know real estate values in that area one could expect they would be wealthy. There are large old trees that obscure the houses from view, and the house I know looked like a modest two story from the street but was actually a massive home, on a huge ravine lot that went really far back.

JMO I don't think TPS had any idea of the extent of the Sherman's wealth for the first day or two. Or the litigious nature of Barry Sherman and Apotex. There are many rich people in Toronto but not like Barry and Honey. Their names were also not splashed around much like other philanthropist Torontonians. Toronto Jewish community would know them, but by virtue of Apotex making generic drugs, it was not a household name. The officers first on the scene might not have realized the whole situation.

So the easiest conclusion, the path of least resistance, for TPS was m/s when they found a somewhat elderly couple dead. Then IMO, on day two or three, someone in TPS figured out these are actual billionaires, and the case needed much more investigation, and everything changed IMO.

TPS can't say something like "we didn't know who they were when we first found the bodies and now we are looking at this more carefully".

 

[ldlager]

Since the Shermans were believed to already be deceased when they were strapped to the pool railing, why would each of their jackets be pulled down in what seems to me, to be somewhat reminiscent of a ''hockey jerseying'' move?
Had not until now, thought about the not seeing part, maybe the jackets were first flipped over H&B's heads and then brought back to rest off the shoulders, keeping arm positions in place?
imo, speculation.

Urban Dictionary: Jerseying
''The act of reaching over somebody and pulling their shirt (or jersey) over their heads, but not off, so their arms are not usable for fighting or defending themselves. They also can't see.
Typically a move for hockey fights.''

their jackets could have been pulled back just before they were strangled, in order to immobilize their arms. Then suspended with jackets in the same position. also, I think i just read a couple of days ago that only Barry's jacket was pulled back.

 

[ldlager]

The media routinely regurgitates reports from other MSM but I recall Warmington believed he was the first to report M/S. If he wasn’t, that doesn’t change the fact no “police source” was ever identified so it is impossible to know what TPS believed prior to the official ruling, other than they say M/S, S/S and M/S were all considered.

I don’t believe the public views incorrect information from unnamed sources to negatively reflect on anyone, since who offered the information is unknown to the general public. Reporters are legally protected to report what they’ve been told but any say-so information is impossible to verify.

Regarding “no suspects were being sought”, the context in which those words were spoken is critical in my view. This wasn’t spoken during an interview with the question asked “how is the investigation progressing”. That night alarmed, scared and concerned neighbours gathered because they noticed a large police presence at the Sherman home. The neighbours knew absolutely nothing about the murders that had already occurred a couple days prior. They probably thought TPS was alerted of violence occurring by an alarm company or a 911 call. Imaginations get working, is it safe to stay in their homes, might the violent intruder still be in the area? Are TPS planning to check garages and other outbuildings in case the intruder is hiding nearby, should they stay in a hotel?

It seems to me a very natural police-speak response by TPS “ no suspect is being sought” in order to calm the fears of those neighbours as indeed no suspect was being sought - if they’d said otherwise, I have a vision of TPS driving or running around the neighbourhood in this direction and that, hoping to locate the intruder. Of course that’d be totally ridiculous considering what we later learned.

JMO

I always thought TPS did a great disservice to the neighbours by stating that. At that point TPS couldn't have known if an attacker/murderer/robber was loose in the area, and whether Neighbours could be at risk. IMO it would have been much better if LE had said that it was too early to determine if the public was at risk; that they would be patrolling the area; and that residents should be cautious and remain in their homes. JMO

 

[ldlager]

I would like to see a video of someone flipping their kneeling legs out in front of them once the belt is around the neck and arms behind the back.. especially at their ages. imo.

Really? I don't think it would be difficult at all. If it makes it seem easier, just attach the belts while crouching instead of kneeling, then lean back

 

[dotr]

Toronto Police Service :: News Release #48640
''Clarification Statement from Toronto Police regarding the Investigation into the Murders of Barry and Honey Sherman

Broadcast time: 15:15
Date: Friday, November 27, 2020''
The following statement is being issued on behalf of Detective Sergeant Brandon Price, Homicide.

"There have been recent reports in the media which indicate that the Toronto Police Service has identified, but not arrested, a Person of Interest in this investigation.

In fairness to the friends and family of Barry and Honey Sherman, I would like to offer a clarification.

Numerous "persons of interest" have been, and continue to be, investigated throughout the course of this three year investigation. The goal of any investigation is to identify persons who may have been involved in an offence or to exclude them as suspects.

In the interest of protecting the integrity of this investigation, the Toronto Police Service Homicide Squad is not in a position to confirm if a suspect or suspects have been identified."

 

[MistyWaters]

I always thought TPS did a great disservice to the neighbours by stating that. At that point TPS couldn't have known if an attacker/murderer/robber was loose in the area, and whether Neighbours could be at risk. IMO it would have been much better if LE had said that it was too early to determine if the public was at risk; that they would be patrolling the area; and that residents should be cautious and remain in their homes. JMO

Robbers, attackers and murderers can exist in any neighbourhood, I don’t recall anything mentioned about “not at risk” as there’d already been prior robberies in the area iirc.

Without divulging specific details, TPS was be limited in what they could say to calm the fears of neighbours. Going by the degree of decomposition, it would’ve been obvious the couple had been deceased for a considerable amount of time so an active killer loose in the neighbourhood was not the situation that was presently taking place.

Police are always guarded about what they’re able to say when initially responding to a crime, mainly because the investigation into it has hardly began.

JMO

 

[Tealgrove]

Toronto Police Service :: News Release #48640
''Clarification Statement from Toronto Police regarding the Investigation into the Murders of Barry and Honey Sherman

Broadcast time: 15:15
Date: Friday, November 27, 2020''
The following statement is being issued on behalf of Detective Sergeant Brandon Price, Homicide.

"There have been recent reports in the media which indicate that the Toronto Police Service has identified, but not arrested, a Person of Interest in this investigation.

In fairness to the friends and family of Barry and Honey Sherman, I would like to offer a clarification.

Numerous "persons of interest" have been, and continue to be, investigated throughout the course of this three year investigation. The goal of any investigation is to identify persons who may have been involved in an offence or to exclude them as suspects.

In the interest of protecting the integrity of this investigation, the Toronto Police Service Homicide Squad is not in a position to confirm if a suspect or suspects have been identified."

I was waiting for this.